Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Im sure you already made it clear, but just so I get it, does that mean, the people you feel, here....

Are Jehovahs Witnesses?


If so, thats cool.....just want to clarify :thumbsup::friends:

Thanks for your response Jem

Re: "Those who were taken into "the covenant for a kingdom" were told that they would eat and drink with Christ in his kingdom. These "chosen ones" are to be "joint heirs" with Christ."

Do you understand/believe that Jesus command to "keep doing this..."; only applied to the apostles he spoke these words to?

Prior to our Lords ascension, did Jesus not leave instructions to teach others all the things he had commanded? Therefore, might we assume Jesus' apostles (whom he gave a command as to how he should be remembered..("Keep doing this...").....likewise taught their families, friends, relatives, neighbours...all that would listen....to keep all of Jesus commands...correct?

The way the scriptures read to me...(at this time...grin), to be a brother/sister of our Lord one would want to listen and follow all of his commands.

Mark 3:34....", he said: “See, my mother and my brothers!  Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother.”

Does this scripture not indicate all that do the will of God are Jesus brother/sister/mother?

Romans 5:8....explains further...

" But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath.  For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."

Peace to you Jem,

gogh

No gogh, I believe that these words apply to those who are of the 'anointed'. Those who are adopted by God a spiritual sons of the kingdom. This group started to be gathered in the first century and with the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost it was added to considerably. It continued to be added to until the sealing of the specified number was complete. (Revelation 7:2-4)

Yes absolutely. But something happened to severely restrict the choosing of these ones. An apostasy was foretold that would derail Christianity somewhat. Jesus referred to it with a parable. (The wheat and the weeds or tares) The apostles Peter and Paul also spoke about it. (Acts 20:28-30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3)

These all indicated that from within the Christian Congregations itself, "men would rise and speak twisted things in order to draw the disciples away after themselves." History testifies to the truthfulness of these words. Apostasy was "already at work" in the days of the apostles. And when the last of the apostles died, it spread like gangrene throughout the congregations. By the time of Constantine, (4th century) Christianity was ripe for the implementation of a new religion. Constantine fused apostate Christianity with pagan doctrines in order to consolidate his religiously divided empire.... and Roman Catholicism was born; the number of true Christians was almost completely eclipsed by the 'weeds' of Christendom. Both were to grow together till the 'harvest time' however. So all through those dark times there were individuals who dared to speak up and who were martyred for their stand against false Christianity. (Rev 6:9-11)
That's why I don't believe that the full number of anointed were gathered before the time of the end....the time we are living in now.

I couldn't agree more! :thumbup: But in Rev 21:3, 4 it says "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Armageddon will have cleansed the earth of all the things that were polluting it...spiritually, morally and physically.

Revelation is indicating that humans will benefit from the rulership of Christ and his "joint-heirs". The rulership of the kingdom is heavenly but the subjects of that kingdom will live on earth. It was where God intended humans to live at the start. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29) Jesus himself said the the "meek will inherit the earth." (Matt 5:5)

There was no death mentioned in Eden except as a punishment for disobedience, so I believe that the earth was always going to be man's permanent home.

What does that reconciliation involve? And once the reconciliation has taken place, what then?

Do you have a "big picture" gogh? And if you do, can you explain it as simply as possible? What is it all about? What is God doing to rectify what went wrong? What does the future hold for Christ's followers?

I will look forward to your response. :coffeeread: :hibye:

I thought it was a bit obvious. But YES, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.;)

Hey mate - yeah, it probably was obvious - but sometimes I can be a little slow on the uptake! :funnyface::thumbsup::funnyface:


Good to have you here, although personally I can see where we will have differences in opinion -- I can say that you arent the only one who shares your views on this board.

Its all good though! Glad to have you here, and looking forward to the many discussion ahead.

Cheers mate! :friends::friends::friends:

That's OK DP, I don't expect to to change people's thinking but reasoning on scripture is something I love to do. :read: :thinking:

I have no time for whiners or those who are ex JW's with an axe to grind....that is their problem. :fightingmad: I don't want to hear about it.

We are all responsible for what we choose to believe and must each go where our hearts impel us. :heartbeat:
It's all about choices and all choices have consequences.

I find it fascinating to hear how people come by their beliefs. It's a real education. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they wish, so I am not going to argue or get narky. :angry:
I would rather ignore somebody than be rude to them. (Mark 14:60-62)

Look forward to hearing your views DP. :thumbsup:

Ggg daaa (not sure the accent comes across ;):whistle: ) :giverose: and welcome :giverose: to you Jemima!

It is so nice to be able to sit down and share with my first cuppa coffee with ya'll this morning :drinking:

I was reading over you thoughts this morning and can so understand where you are coming from and how you are reasoning, as most of us can having been taught, some from babyhood, the teaching and heart felt beliefs that you have expressed here ...

In light of some of your thoughts I thought I would like to make a 'logical' response but will do it in the general section of the cafe if that is ok ...

I was thinking of naming it ... knowledge or knowing ...?

Hopefulling you will find it 'logical' ... :P:albert::grad:

PS edit ... I decided to name it ... 'does emotion overshadow reasoning'?

Lots of warm Christian love to you and yours BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Jemima,

I think a persons heart needs to be inclined towards obedience to Jesus Christ and his commandments. If they are not obedient to Jesus Christ then they are lawless. Jesus Christ made the laws and Jehovah said; "this is my son listen to him".

The ones who are not obedient have allowed a "man of lawlessness" to enter the Christian Temple and lift themselves up and yes, because they like it that way!


2nd Thessalonians 2: 9-12
9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

There is one certain way for any person to gain access to the temple:

Baptism!


If a persons baptismal vows are not heard in the temple then of what value is baptism, so baptism is essential!


Jesus Christ came back from the dead to give us a new commandment after he had inaugurated the holy covenant.

If Jesus Christ gave us a commandment IT IS LAW.

Here is his commandment:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Those are commanded vows which enter the temple.

Jesus Christ said this was to be done right up to the conclusion of the system of things.


Jehovah's Witnesses BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT.

THEY ARE LAWLESS!


Why would God allow Jehovah's Witnesses to continue breaking his sons law?


2nd Thessalonians 2:10-12
God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


Jehovah's Witnesses have broken Jesus Christs law giving veneration to men in their baptismal vows.

They have allowed a "man of lawlessness" to enter the Christian Temple.

Why?

because they like it that way!




In Christ

abe

Jemima,

I would rather snatch someone out of the fire than ignore them.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.


In Christ

abe

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you with answers to your questions Jem.. (I hope you do not mind continuing here at this topic)

Re: “What does that reconciliation involve?”

Reconciliation or being reconciled seems to be synonymous with being declared righteous. Some reference scriptures are:

(Acts 13:39) “…and that from all the things from which YOU could not be declared guiltless by means of the law of Moses, everyone who believes is declared guiltless by means of this One.”

(Galatians 3:11) “Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.”

(1 John 1:29) "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."


Re: “And once the reconciliation has taken place, what then?”

I understand reconciliation started with those that first put faith in Jesus being the Son of God, continues to this day and will continue through a thousand years of Jesus rule until (I Corinthians 15:24…) “Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”

I understand that all putting complete faith in our Lord Jesus are declared righteous/reconciled at the time of being drawn to our Lord by our Father…(John 6:44…) “No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him;…”


Re: “Do you have a "big picture" gogh?”…” What is God doing to rectify what went wrong?”

I believe that what went wrong was ,as you have stated;….apostasy started in the first century and continues to our day. Personally, I have come to understand a difference between religion and worship. Jesus mentioned to the Samaritan woman, “worship in spirit and truth”. I believe the difference between religion and worship can be discerned via asking for our Fathers holy spirit through our Lord Jesus. Jesus stated that he was “the truth”, I have come to discern it appropriate to put complete faith/trust in him and no other. Religion(s),imo, inevitably/invariably interfere with complete trust and faith in our Lord, often demanding complete trust in men. (reference: Psalm 146:3…) “Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.”
I discern many are coming to the same experience as I. Of all things that Jehovah is doing, I believe He (through our Lord Jesus) is teaching many to truly love him and our neighbour as ourself……I believe this is part of a foundation that is continuing to be built (in the hearts of humans) that will compliment the outworking of His righteous kingdom. This is what I discern God is doing at this time/moment. (I only know stuff as far as I can see…which isn’t often past the end of my nose….grin)


Re: “What does the future hold for Christ's followers?”

I feel deception continues in full swing that detracts from complete faith in the one whom our Father has instructed to be listened to (put complete faith in), Jesus Christ our Shepherd. I feel the human family will be cleansed from Satanic influence under the direction of our Lord Jesus. Christ’s followers will continue to aid in doing this in whatever capacity our Father decides. (Christ’s followers in the present may try and set example by putting faith in our Lord…(this includes following Jesus instructions to teach all the things he commanded). The specifics of what the future holds, imo, is often speculative. Mark 10:40…”However, this sitting down at my right or at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared.” Often religion demands complete trust men and their own peculiar way (that through them may lead one to salvation)…to the detriment of 100% trust and faith in Jesus Christ.

I hope I have not bored you Jem.

Christian love,

gogh

Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you gogh...it's a busy life! :(

In order for a reconciliation to take place, the parties both have to have the desire for a reconciliation.
Both parties usually have terms that form the basis of a reconciliation.
For humans the terms are usually equal.

Between God and man, it is God who has the right to set the terms, not man. God has certainly specified what he has to bring to the table as his end of the bargain however. Not that we deserve any of it, but that it forms the basis of the agreement.

Terms of reconciliation with God include obedience to all that God commands his human children to do. Faithful ones of old like Abraham and Noah and Moses, all shared one characteristic..they obeyed out of absolute faith in their Father, no matter what he asked of them and no matter how difficult the assignment was. They "did just so".

So first and foremost I believe that reconciliation with God requires obedience.

Agreed. But I do not believe that the drawing is simply as an individual lost in a sea of professed or counterfeit Christians.
Jehovah is a God of order and has always had a "people" , an organized family through whom he was worshipped. In ancient times, it was through the Patriarchs, then the nation of Israel, then the Christian congregation who were disciples of his son.
Even though the weeds were sown right in among the wheat, it didn't make the wheat disappear, they were there growing along with them all this time.

We were warned to 'get out of Babylon the Great' or we would 'share in her sins and receive part of her plagues.'
Obedience requires that we remove ourselves from all false worship.
Jehovah would not have told us to get out of false religion, if he did not have true religion to go to. Jehovah operates organizationally and always has.
In order to carry out a global witness "to all the nations" requires organization. It cannot be done haphazardly. Lives are at stake. :huh:
The first Christians were organized, so are Christians today...the all important preaching work could not be completed without it.

I understand what you mean about 'worship' and 'religion' but I also understand that "men" have been placed in positions of authority in the congregations of Jehovah's people. No organization is possible without the willing co-operation of men. Are they perfect? Do they get it wrong every now and then? YEP! If they were perfect, we'd be in the new system already!
The "slave" is appointed by the Master to "feed" God's household their "food at the proper time". To divorce yourself from men is to cut off your food supply, without which you die, spiritually speaking. (Matthew 24:45)

God is indeed doing amazing things at this 'time of the end'. But he also said that a worldwide preaching work would be accomplished as "a witness to all the nations...and then the end would come." (Matt 24:14) It directly precedes the end, and when it does come, it will only be those "doing the will of the Father" who will survive. (Matt 7:21-23)
Regardless of what a person calls themselves, only Jehovah knows who his true servants are. (2 Tim. 2:19) They are told to meet together for encouragement and to "incite to love and fine works." (Heb 10:24, 25)

I have no doubt that among the ranks of Jehovah's people there are those whose heart is "not complete towards him". Only Jehovah knows who they are...appearances mean nothing to him. But those who leave off obeying the 'slave's' direction because of some personal discipline or because they have been overtaken by a lack of faith, are on perilous ground IMO.
There are no 'loners'; none who worship in isolation; no fence sitters...only sheep or goats. You belong to one 'flock' or the other.

It is obvious by Jesus own statement at Matt 7:21-23 that some who imagine they are sheep, are really goats. His rejection of them leaves them in complete shock! :shocked:

I agree completely. But those who are deceived, usually don't know it. Deception looks like the real McCoy...it is easy to be fooled by an 'angel of light'.

I agree again. But what does putting faith in our Lord Jesus really mean? How are we to follow Jesus' instructions to teach and make disciples? Just individually? When people in ancient times wanted to become Jehovah's worshippers, they had to become "Jewish" in every way. When Jews became Christians, they had to abandon the apostate worship set up by sectarian Judaism. Gentiles had to be baptized and worship along with fellow Christians, abandoning all their former beliefs.

Jehovah has always had an organized people who worship him. Nobody just read the scriptures and decided for themselves what to believe. God's people have his laws to guide and direct their every step. And he has always had his representatives to oversee the activities of his people....to guide and direct them.

Jesus himself trusted imperfect men to carry on the work he started.

Paul told us to "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU." ( Heb 13:17)

Again it is about obedience, trusting, not in men but in who is directing them. And that my friend is what faith is all about.

Nor I you. ;)

Thats the thing though, mate. :read:


If the "willing co-operation of men" state that they are God's mouthpiece (meaning, they speak for Jehovah), and yet "they get it wrong every now and then" - it wouldnt be so bad if they didnt state that the "wrong" understanding they teach and have taught was from themselves (originating with men) in the first place - unfortunately - whatever the Governing body say is "the truth" because it comes directly from God (as the average non-annointed JW has no real connection to Jehovah outside of "arrangement" and must be abided by in order to enforce a semblance of "unity" of thought and interpretation throughout the Organisation.....until of course "new light" comes out.

So this begs the question -- at what point is something from Jehovah or from men? :dontknow:

If the Governing Body, who are supposed to represent the annointed remnant on earth, who also speak for Jehovah by teaching and promoting what they believe to be "the truth", "get it wrong every now and then" -- which also potentially means they have it wrong on other issues too -- how can they justify teaching something as originating from God, with belief to the contrary having the consequence of expulsion from the Organisation -- if it never actually originated with God in the first place?

Using the "their not perfect" argument wears a little thin, when these men assume their every utterance is from Jehovah himself. It voids these men of responsibility when things go pear shaped.

One of my chief "beefs" with the Pope, is that he claims to be God's sole representation on earth. :huh:


I dont see any difference with the Governing Body. The Governing Body claim the same - God's exclusive channel of communication. :thinking:

Actually, there is one difference I see....at least they dont wear stupid circus outfits and look like the Dark Lord of the Sith! :funnyface:


Cheers matey! :friends::friends::friends:

Hi Jemima

Thank you for your comments.

You have touched on points that could present many topics for discussion here, Jem. It seems you have/are presenting very clearly, a position that many here would have presented at one time or another.

It might be of most benefit to address few comments at a time.

Re: "...I believe that reconciliation with God requires obedience."

Collosians1:21... indicates faith is the basis for reconciliation:

" Indeed, YOU who were once alienated and enemies because YOUR minds were on the works that were wicked, he now has again reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through [his] death, in order to present YOU holy and unblemished and open to no accusation before him,  provided, of course, that YOU continue in the faith, established on the foundation and steadfast and not being shifted away from the hope of that good news which YOU heard, and which was preached in all creation that is under heaven. Of this [good news] I Paul became a minister."

Religious leaders of Jesus day were obedient to the law....where did it get them? Others, however were declared clean/healed by our Master; as he often stated..."your faith has made you well". Imo, obedience (to our Leader) is a consequence/by-product/fruitage of , first and foremost ....FAITH in our Lord Jesus Christ, the one (and only) mediator between God and Man. (1 Timothy 2:5,,,"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all..."

Re: "Jehovah operates organizationally and always has."

In what way were faithful humans, such as Able, Enoch, Jonah, Job etc, operating organizationally?


Since Jesus set the ultimate example to be followed...there is a body of Christ, which continues to our day. The body of Christ includes all Jesus Christs followers.....I do not feel it appropriate to attempt to read hearts to determine who are or who are not "true" Christian...imo.


Christian love,

gogh

digital punk,

Looks like you have thought it through!

The next argument is usually always that the Governing Body don't say that they are inspired by God.

Here is the documented proof in case that happens:

Nope, they insist on wearing their sheep's clothing.


In Christ

abe