Dear folks,
This is with reference to the thread "Why I believe there is a God...."
Where I raised the point that the Bible does teach that both Good and Evil was created by YHVH.
The Watchtower Society ofcourse is deadset against the concept, trusting my meager knowledge and memory I believe this is what was taught by Socrates, or was it Plato that the supreme deity is good whether they also believed that He created good as well as evil I am not sure.
Coming to my topic " Predestination taught by Paul". Paul consistently in his letters draws our attention to this fact that God chose Christ's companions the saints not because of any goodness on their part but that this decision was made before the "founding of the world"
Ephesian 1:
4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love.
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
This ties in nicely with the Scripture in Exodus where YHVH speaking to Moses declares "I shall have mercy on whomsoever I shall have mercy".
So it is all preordained by God later on I would like to discuss how the Bible shows that ALL MANKIND will eventually be ressurrected and live again from all races, religions because Adam by virtue of sin condenmed ALL men to death.
Jesus the last Adam sacrificed his life to give life to ALL MANKIND
Dear folks,
This is with reference to the thread "Why I believe there is a God...."
Where I raised the point that the Bible does teach that both Good and Evil was created by YHVH.
The Watchtower Society ofcourse is deadset against the concept, trusting my meager knowledge and memory I believe this is what was taught by Socrates, or was it Plato that the supreme deity is good whether they also believed that He created good as well as evil I am not sure.
Coming to my topic " Predestination taught by Paul". Paul consistently in his letters draws our attention to this fact that God chose Christ's companions the saints not because of any goodness on their part but that this decision was made before the "founding of the world"
Ephesian 1:
4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before Him in love.
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will.
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
fzubair,
I think that what God did was create love.
If he created everything so that it never made a mistake then we would all be robots.
We would have no choice but to do good all the time.
In that situation however, love would not exist.
Love is a voluntary emotion, it cannot be forced.
Obeying or disobeying is a choice.
If we were created to always to good then we would have no choice.
Without this choice love cannot exist.
So I do not agree that God created good and evil.
What he did do was create an environment where love might exist.
If he did not do that then we wouldn't even be here to discuss it.
But would that be good?
In Christ
abe
That God predestines both Good and Evil can be seen in the ultimate act of both Good and Evil, the death of the Son of God.
Truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27–28)
This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23
Does this make God the author of evil? No, but as Joseph said, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50:20
So basically I believe that God uses evil for his own purposes. That God allowed that evil should exist to fulfill a greater purpose.
I look forward to a good discussion.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Are you not extrapolating from the particular to the general?
That God predestines both Good and Evil can be seen in the ultimate act of both Good and Evil, the death of the Son of God.
Truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (Acts 4:27–28)
This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23
Does this make God the author of evil? No, but as Joseph said, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." - Genesis 50:20
So basically I believe that God uses evil for his own purposes. That God allowed that evil should exist to fulfill a greater purpose.
I look forward to a good discussion.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Are you not extrapolating from the particular to the general?
Ephesians 1:11 says that God "works all things according to the counsel of his will." Romans 8:28 says "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good."
So, no, I'm not.
Matt
I'm used to 'predestination' and 'chosen few' always going hand in hand. If it can be shown from scripture that God predestined the salvation of the many, I'm all ears...
Hi Brendan,
According to Matt, God does predestine the many, but, unfortunately, it is to a fiery hell!! :) ;)
I'm used to 'predestination' and 'chosen few' always going hand in hand. If it can be shown from scripture that God predestined the salvation of the many, I'm all ears...
Hi Matt,
What is the all things?
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good."
A Baptist couple of missionaries had their very young daughter gang raped in South America. She was so traumatized she did not speak afterwards...was it part of the all things that work for our good?
Hi Brendan,
According to Matt, God does predestine the many, but, unfortunately, it is to a fiery hell!! :) ;)
Hi Derek,
Now that would be a God that defies belief - The Celestial Psycho!
What I was hoping was that brother fzubair had found a connection between predestination and salvation for all. I would be fascinated to hear such an argument.
Regards,
Brendan.
Hey Farhat! :clap:
Hows it going mate? :thumbsup:
Im looking forward to hearing about your views too. I hope that life for you is good, and that you are well -- goodness knows I cannot fathom the trials you face over there, but I do hope that you are given strength from the Lord to persevere!!
Cheers brother! :friends::friends::friends:
Im looking forward to hearing about your views too. I hope that life for you is good, and that you are well -- goodness knows I cannot fathom the trials you face over there, but I do hope that you are given strength from the Lord to persevere!!
Cheers brother! :friends::friends::friends:[/color]
Digital punk
Hey DP,Mavos,Abe, Brendan and Derek
Thank you for taking an interest in the topic I too hope I will learn somethings new from our interaction on this topic. Therefore, here some more thoughts on the subject.
THE MYSTERY OF GOD
God has a mysterious plan.
Paul tells us that the mystery of God was hidden throughout all the ages and generations from the time of creation until the appearance of the Messiah.
Then the heavenly Father revealed this mystery to His saints (Col. 1:26).
We thought we knew the mystery of God when we became Christian.
We thought He is saving those who, of their own free will, accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus .
We believed that God will condemn and eternally punish those who do not accept (whether knowingly or without knowledge) that sacrifice.
Which means God is going to save just a minority of humanity.
But the Bible if we take it at face value does not say this exactly!
To understand God’s mystery I will have to believe certain things and drop other beliefs:
God is present everywhere and all things happen with the full knowledge and will of God Almighty.
Every moment God knows what is happening in His universe:
“LUKE 12:6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two small coins? Yet not one of them has escaped the notice of God. 7 Even the hairs of your head have all been counted. Do not be afraid. You are worth more than many sparrows." (NAB) “
God has a definite plan for mankind which includes things both good and bad.
“ECCLESIASTES 7:13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what He has made crooked?†God the Father takes complete responsibility for His universe.
FREE WILL?
Yet we do not believe God when He claims to be the source of evil. I refuse to accept the very words of God recorded in the Bible and instead prefer to believe in a different God, one of other’s or of my own devising.
The God of most Christians isn't the source of the evil in the world. Instead, they believe God simply allows His creation to choose evil because He has given them the free will to do so.
I say that is not fair! What is fair?
I say that is not just! What is just?
I say this is not wise!
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding†Proverbs 9:10
If just the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the LORD, then the Bible does not consider my (as a human being) sense of fairness, justice and wisdom to be anywhere near the Almighty God? This is the toughest part for us folks!
Like Habakkuk I am appalled at God’s solutions in the Bible, such as punishing the wayward nation of Judah with a million times more rascal Babylonian nation. Habakkuk 1:12-17
God used various evil beings both men and spiritual beings doing evil things against His own people to carry out His own will (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; I Kings 22:19-23; II Chr. 18:18-22; Num. 22:5-24:25 Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar (Jer. 25:9; 27:6; 43:10) and Persian king Cyrus (Isa. 44:28; 45:1-4; II Chr. 36:22:23; Ezra 1:1-4).
I used to think God is simply doing His best to rescue a plan gone horribly wrong. Jesus His son had to be dispatched to the earth to provide a means for humanity to be forgiven and saved from the sin and death and that although the devil and his angels will ultimately be defeated, first they will succeed in dragging down most of humanity into the fiery pit of hell with them (Matt. 25:41)
Bible contradicts the above-mentioned situation and shows that the sacrifice of Yeshua for sin was part of God's plan from the very beginning:
1 PETER 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. 20 He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake. (NRSV)
REVELATION 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast — all whose names have not been written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)
God did not improvise His original plan. The Messiah's sacrifice for mankind's salvation was the main theme of the blueprint of his plan. It was the fundamental game- plan.
Otherwise it would be initially an imperfect plan. How could an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God have designed a flawed plan that required revision to make it work?
God would not, indeed could not, have drafted an imperfect plan. Consequently, the design we now see unfolding must be EXACTLY what God intended from the very beginning!
At face value the Bible teaches that God is not scrambling to correct some unplanned situation but rather what we see is God’s original plan unfolding.
The reason why we think God is not in absolute control is that we believe God has given His creation "free will."
We believe God is like an owner of an expensive branded product, if you do not have His kind ofcurrency you won’t be able to buy it.
And we are also taught that like the owner of an expensive merchandize God will not force anyone to be saved against their will.
In other words he has given His sovereignty to His creation. Therefore, the creation will determine the outcome of the divine plan, not God.
God may not want anyone to be destroyed (II Pet. 3:9), but unfortunately He will not be able to.
Because as believed by us all He has given us the "free will" to choose life or death, some will choose NOT to be saved. In other words the choices of mortal men will override the outcome desired by Almighty God.
For a sample does this Scripture indicate humans have a free will?
JOHN 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [helkuso] ALL people to myself." (NRSV)
The people thus drawn or helkuso do not have any choice in the matter, they are being drawn against their wills into something God wants them for them they on their part may not even like or want it.
Jesus gives us a glimpse into what God planned to accomplish through the sacrifice of Him. The Messiah plainly understood that his sacrificial death was a necessary part of God's plan which would eventually lead to ALL mankind accepting him as their Lord ("Master").
Paul expands on the words of Jesus to confirm the end result of his atoning death:
PHILIPPIANS 2:8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death — even death on a cross! 9 As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee will bow — in heaven and on earth and under the earth — 11 and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (NET)
Jesus’ put the fear of God over his desires which resulted in God exalting him above all things except Himself (I Cor. 15:27).
In the end, the entire creation will bow to Jesus and confess that he is Lord. This outcome will bring glory to God the Father, because it will signal the successful completion of this phase of His plan.
To be continued
Farhat Zubair
Paul blames sin received from Adam to be the cause of the death of all men (Rom 5:12). Since one man was the reason of such collosal loss of life, Paul contends Jesus by equaling the balance purchased life for "ALL MEN/"
Jesus said John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw "ALL PEOPLES". How can anyone create divisions where Jesus put none. He could have said if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all those who put faith in me or my followers or my desciples or anyother such expression. But the fact is He did say no such thing the Jesus dying on the Cross still draws all sorts of people everywhere in the world.
No supposedly dead man has ever excercised ths PULL in the hearts, minds, and beings of so many billions for so long in the world.
Paul therefore in Romans 5:21 "so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The word grace in Greek is Charis, meaning 'undeserved favor". Paul in his letters always mentions this fact that the calling of God is not due to any good work or disposition of the person being called but is solely due to the mercy of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 we have put our hope in the loving God, who is saviour of ALL MEN especially of those who believe (NIV).So why should anyone doubt when Paul declared the following statement and why not to think that each believer in Christ was predestined by God as a believer.
Ephesians1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in His beloved.
Dear fzubar
I agree with you, both Jehovah and Jesus draw people to them and all who likes to drink of the water of life, will be welcome.
Have you ever tried to think in these terms, as in this example:
" Estimate Jesus is a physical magnet in heaven and the water of life, is iron. So to give the magnet a chance for drawing the iron particles to it, within our belly ( Hearts or minds ) we must fill ourselves with enough iron, making it possible for the magnetical field to draw us, untill contact is established ( with Jehovah and Jesus ) "
:drinking:
Paul blames sin received from Adam to be the cause of the death of all men (Rom 5:12). Since one man was the reason of such collosal loss of life, Paul contends Jesus by equaling the balance purchased life for "ALL MEN/"
Jesus said John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw "ALL PEOPLES". How can anyone create divisions where Jesus put none. He could have said if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all those who put faith in me or my followers or my desciples or anyother such expression. But the fact is He did say no such thing the Jesus dying on the Cross still draws all sorts of people everywhere in the world.
No supposedly dead man has ever excercised ths PULL in the hearts, minds, and beings of so many billions for so long in the world.
Paul therefore in Romans 5:21 "so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The word grace in Greek is Charis, meaning 'undeserved favor". Paul in his letters always mentions this fact that the calling of God is not due to any good work or disposition of the person being called but is solely due to the mercy of God.
1 Timothy 4:10 we have put our hope in the loving God, who is saviour of ALL MEN especially of those who believe (NIV).So why should anyone doubt when Paul declared the following statement and why not to think that each believer in Christ was predestined by God as a believer.
Ephesians1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in His beloved.
[quote=Talkactive]
Dear fzubar
I agree with you, both Jehovah and Jesus draw people to them and all who likes to drink of the water of life, will be welcome.
Have you ever tried to think in these terms, as in this example:
" Estimate Jesus is a physical magnet in heaven and the water of life, is iron. So to give the magnet a chance for drawing the iron particles to it, within our belly ( Hearts or minds ) we must fill ourselves with enough iron, making it possible for the magnetical field to draw us, untill contact is established ( with Jehovah and Jesus ) "
:drinking:
Dear Talkative,
Interesting analogy, the Bible has a strange fascination and pull. I speak from personal experience.
As a Jehohvah's Witness I went to from house to house speaking mostly to my ex-faith people the muslims, the ones I met spoke with great respect about Abraham, Moses, Jesus.
Most when probed would comment that they did not believe the Bible was now in its original form as it came down from above, but there reactions were in total oppositions to the almost hostile attitude of atheists aganist the Bible.
Nowadays I am reading and researching on the possibility that may be this cosmic factory called universe was created by God with good and evil in it, that evil is an inherent quality of matter and energy and it needs to be channelized and turned innaucous by its application among God's creatures both Angels and Men.
That ultimately God will save all beings evil as well as good and make them his sons and daughters, for some it will take a long time coming to term with this discernment in order to benefit from God's provision (JESUS) for others it will be love and obedience at first sight.
However, all this I suspect was inbuilt in our makeup (both angels and human beings) and we all have to go through the mill so to speak and finally all will bow before Jesus Christ things in heaven, things on the earth, and things under the earth. It is God's purpose to reconcile all things into Him, and when all things have been reconciled into Him, the Jesus will hand it all over to God so that God maybe all in all.
A beautiful concept God, God is proactive He designs and accepts the rigors of the struggle, He does not spare His creatures as well from these rigors (tears, hurts, injustices). He demands it abosolutely (He is not answerable to anyone (Book of Job)).
And it is not His intention to loose not even one of His creatures, those interested in His plan and those others who either ignore or even go abosolutely against it (that too designed by God).
Paul speaks repeatedly about predestination in his letters, and considering Paul is he who has explained the Bible to us and Paul it was Jesus used to reveal Himself to men. It is deep concept and I am hoping to get a grip on what Paul says and how it connects from Genesis down to the prophets and finally to the gospels and Revelation.
Wish me :D
Farhat Zubair
Nowadays I am reading and researching on the possibility that may be this cosmic factory called universe was created by God with good and evil in it, that evil is an inherent quality of matter and energy and it needs to be channelized and turned innaucous by its application among God's creatures both Angels and Men.
That ultimately God will save all beings evil as well as good and make them his sons and daughters, for some it will take a long time coming to term with this discernment in order to benefit from God's provision (JESUS) for others it will be love and obedience at first sight.
However, all this I suspect was inbuilt in our makeup (both angels and human beings) and we all have to go through the mill so to speak and finally all will bow before Jesus Christ things in heaven, things on the earth, and things under the earth. It is God's purpose to reconcile all things into Him, and when all things have been reconciled into Him, the Jesus will hand it all over to God so that God maybe all in all.
A beautiful concept God, God is proactive He designs and accepts the rigors of the struggle, He does not spare His creatures as well from these rigors (tears, hurts, injustices). He demands it abosolutely (He is not answerable to anyone (Book of Job)).
And it is not His intention to loose not even one of His creatures, those interested in His plan and those others who either ignore or even go abosolutely against it (that too designed by God).
Paul speaks repeatedly about predestination in his letters, and considering Paul is he who has explained the Bible to us and Paul it was Jesus used to reveal Himself to men. It is deep concept and I am hoping to get a grip on what Paul says and how it connects from Genesis down to the prophets and finally to the gospels and Revelation.
Dear Brother Zubair,
GREAT POST!! I agree with you almost 100 percent!! The only thing I would say differently is that God did not create the evil, He gave this particular planet FREE WILL. With free will comes the potential for evil. Not EVERY planet has free will. This place is a beta-testing ground, a special place where many spiritual entities want to be (in the flesh), so that they can each contribute to the Divine Library of Perfection, or The Divine Plan, so that we can LEARN to be like God. An ADVERSARY is necessary to accomplish that goal. That adversary is inside every human being, a negatively biased consciousness (EGO). Remember the cartoons where the angel was talking on the left shoulder and the devil on the right? (Or was it the other way around?) It's pretty much the truth! The Godly intuition versus the egotistical desire!
Peace and Love to you, and congratulations on your profound enlightenment! You have come a LONG LONG WAY from Watchtowerism.
Jimmy C.