"I have presented you for good and evil, that you may choose to do good and live."
If our selection was due to choosing of good over bad where is it written in the Scriptures that JHVH rejected Esau over Jacob because his works were bad or he was a sinner.
The selection of Jacob was made before he left his mother's womb!
Isaac was selected over Ishmael before he was even born.
Romans 9:11-21
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
I am not an expert on the subject yet talkative and am still growing spiritually. What I have left behind are the shackles of the Watchtower & Bible tract society.
These shackles are not physical ones but mental ones, they have an unseen, grip on the thought process of all those who were enslaved by the organization.
Many on this board have a keen sense of the Watchtower society's stench of leaven and when those of us who find anybody with this stench we became wary.
Please be happy if you and others are happy with WT premise of faiths or what you consider your own understanding but do not refute the clear cut open for everyone to see teachings of the Scriptures.
My words may be curt but the intention is not to hurt you overtly!
Farhat Zubair:giverose:
Dear fzubair
Do you belive in that Jehovah He has the possibility to see our genes or smalest parts or not in the festus and know the personality of the parrents?
If not then I understand your arguments, in opposite case you maybe can imagine that He see things that we humans can't and understand as described in Psalm 139 verse 16:
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
So in question of an ofspring, Jehovah He knows already the persons "DNA" and can estimate how a person will develop, before the individ leave the Festus, where we all have been granted with a free wil, not who will be delived first or not.
Even that Jehovah He could se all parts of David, what did David do, commit adultery and murder in a speculative way, since he was granted with a free will.
Why: First thoughts :cheer:, Then acts :cheekkiss: and the consequences..... :beatoverhead: or we repent :blush: very simple ;)
Do you still believe that David was predestinated to be approved of Jehovah and would be resurrected, if he hadn't repent?
Pls. let me ask you some questions to get verified what you really mean by predestination.
Before I like to ask you, do you believe that everything that The Watchtower Society stands for is evil and wrong, in your eyes.
The reason for above is due to, that many find everything to be wrong, because of their feelings and former relations, whether they have left on their own hand or has been disfellowshipped, with the result that they can't accept anything and are then unable to seperate between what is right or wrong, as soon as in conforms to what The Watchtower Society stands for, or what they have tried to teach them.
Above, totally independent of what is right or wrong, since and as long as it comes from The Watchtower Society, then it must be wrong and it doesn't make any difference, who have presented an idea or not, It is like a mentally blockade, they are simply unable to se things in an objective manner ;)
Do you believe that humans are predestinated to be resurrected or not?
Do you believe that Solomon was predestinated to fail?
Do you believe that the soul continue to live independent of the body, after a person has passed away and been cremated?
Do you believe, to hate a person is to make total distance, or is it like a Mother, who often has greater or more intensive love for her first ofspring, a little bit more intense than with the second ofspring?
Maybe I better can understand what you mean if you kindly will answer the questions, opposite Anja that do not like to to answer my simple question, where it comes forth in the original Scriptures, that there is a person with the name Jehovah Jesus Christ, in its original form.
Dear Talkative,
In answer to your convulated lengthy reply, most respectfully I refuse to answer any of your questions and request you to direct your Guns elswhere.
In Christ
FZ
Dear anjaandreas,
I am very happy for the blessings and closeness with the LORD you feel.
It is indeed marvelous to find oursleves in this situation after all the spiritual wandering that we ex JWs had to go through.
I completely agree with you about the apostle Paul.
What a towering personality, what humility and industriousness in the LORD he showed.
Truly Paul was a phenomenon in the early church. The early church was composed of oridanry men and women but Paul who was a pupil of a great teacher was really a special prize from Jesus to the early church.
He became a champion of the despised church and by God's Holy Spirit was able to impart the precious truths found in the Old Testament to these ordinary folks.
Paul also was used by God to proclaim the mystery of God, he even superceded the beloved apostle John who in explaning this sacred mystery of God in Revelation.
God bless you and your dear family and keep you in His love
In Christ
Farhat Zubair
Dear fzubair and Anja
I can understand why both of you refuse to answer......
Have you ever thought over what Paul he meant in 2 Timothy Chapter 1 verse 1 and 2:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, [my] dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
and in chapter 4 verse 3 and 4:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
At last in chapter 2 verse 16 to 19:
16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Maybe it is time for us to think about Pauls word, since you now get use of him as a reference ;)
Dear Talkative,
In answer to your convulated lengthy reply, most respectfully I refuse to answer any of your questions and request you to direct your Guns elswhere.
In Christ
FZ
:D Dear talkative,
Thank you again for the extreme generosity, tolerance and tactfulness.
I remain your's in Christ
Farhat Zubair
Dear AnjaAndreas
I must say that I admire your love and enthusiasm here :giverose:
I am convienced that all here have understood, that you belive in, that JYeh,shua is YHVH, so far so good.
Pls. will you help us, just show us a few verse from the original Scriptures in Arameic, Hebrew or Greek, where it comes forth and can be confirmed what you believe, that The Devine Almighty God in heaven is Jyeh,shua :help:
When i was a Jehovah witness i did believe in the lies of the Watchtower -organization .
And they teached me that Prov 8:22 is about the creation of the Son ,and this is how they split God YHVH in two diferant beings by teaching this evil.
But now i know their teachings are a lie ,for Prov 8:12-30 is talking about God,s wisdom , the same as Jeremiah is telling us .
JEREMIAH 10:12 But God made the earth by His power;
HE FOUNDED THE WORLD BY HIS WISDOM and stretched out the heavens
BY HIS UNDERSTANDING .
JEREMIAH 51:15 "He made the earth by His power;
HE FOUNDED THE WORLD BY HIS WISDOM and stretched out the heavens by His understanding."
The next lie is that religion created YHVH into a three persons God .
But Isaiah is speaking of God YHVH right arm the same as our brother John does in John 12:37,38
37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.
38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
These verses are telling me that Yeshua is YHVH stretched out right arm in the flesh .
Isa 52:10 The LORD will lay bare HIS HOLY ARM
IN THE SIGHT OF ALL NATIONS ,
and all the ends of the earth WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed ?
Also JEREMIAH did say this about Jehovah his own outstretched arm in JEREMIAH 27:5
"With My great power AND OUTSTRETCHED ARM I MADE THE EARTH and it,s people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please."
The same our Brother Paul and John are saying in
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Joh1:10 He was in the world, and though THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM , the world did not recognize him.
Anja says :Yes the truth is simple , it is very simple even little children can understand it,but religion made things complecated.:funnyface:
How true are his words and filled with his wisdom
Prov 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom",
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
And this is why Yeshua says he will draw us to him ,for only He is my saviour,who himself says ,
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (John 12:32)
:cheer::heartbeat::cheer:
To me Yeh,shua(Jesus) is YHVH my saviour Messiah who came in the flesh,we have seen Gods own stretched out arm by which he saved us ,yes we saw it,s flesh.
As my brother John say in the next verse i say:
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that acknowledges that Yeshua Messiah has come in the flesh is from God,
(1John 4:2).
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Now some New Testament Scriptures which suggest predestination:
1) Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him." (ESV) John 9:3
2) While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (ESV) John 17:12
3) "Friends, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit through David foretold concerning Judas, who became a guide for those who arrested Jesus for he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry." (NRSV) Acts 1:16, 17
4) When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV) Acts 13:48
Then the question!!!
Is God Responsible for Man's Suffering?
MATTHEW 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
If not one single sparrow falls to the ground apart from the will of God the Father, how much control do you think He exercises over mankind?
God has preordained the destinies of billions of people.
Many will object that God cannot be in charge of every detail of each person's life, because if He was, then He would be directly responsible for all human suffering and pain on the earth.
Most cannot accept that God would cause the horrific misery that is evident in this world. Therefore, they rationalize that God doesn't specifically cause what happens, but rather He simply allows it to occur because He has given His sentient creatures free will, and many of them have chosen to do evil.
Unfortunately, this rationalization doesn't let God off the hook. If He truly is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, He has the presence, knowledge, and power to stop the suffering that happens.
To have that power and not make use of it to end human misery means God is complicit in the suffering. Either way it is viewed, God bears responsibility for the suffering that humanity endures.
If God is powerful enough to stop all suffering (and the Scriptures assert that He is), then why does God not end it? Could it be because this suffering ultimately serves God's purpose of bringing many sons into His family?
Consider ROMANS 8:18-24
Paul states that God subjected His creation to frustration and decay, but that He will liberate it from these impediments when His children are revealed.
While Paul doesn't go into the details, he clearly conveys a certainty that the present sufferings of humanity will pale in comparison to the glory that will be manifested in mankind when this portion of God's plan is completed.
If the Messiah had to suffer in order to learn obedience and be made "perfect" or "complete," why should we expect anything different? Is a slave greater than his master? No, the best we should expect is to be like our Master (Matt. 10:24-25).
Since the Father decreed that our Master Yeshua had to suffer in order to be perfected, we too should expect God the Father to put us through trials and tribulations in order for us to reach spiritual maturity and attain godly character (Jam. 1:2-4).
The primary difference between Yeshua and us is that he had a preexistent relationship with YHVH the heavenly Father and fully understood God's will and what was expected of him.
We, unfortunately, do not always know God's will for us. We can only determine it by studying the Scriptures, developing a relationship with God through regular prayer, and asking Him to reveal His will to us through His Holy Spirit.
Per His plan, God has called many people now to worship Him. However, from those many called, only a few will be chosen to be saved (Matt. 20:16; 22:14) in this age. God's purpose in saving those few now is so that they can in turn help save others later.
Most are destined to be used by God at this time to extend His mercy to those few. God's plan calls for using most people in this age to show His wrath and to make His power and glory known to those on whom He is having mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
Seeing and recognizing God's wrath and power causes those He has called and chosen to fear Him. According to the Scriptures, the fear of YHVH leads to obedience, which brings us wisdom (Job 28:28; Psa. 111:10; Pro. 9:10; 15:33), knowledge (Pro. 1:17; 2:5), and life (Pro. 10:27; 14:27; 19:23; 22:4).
God planned in exquisite detail how to bring many sons into His family before He created the universe. Unfortunately, as the apostle Paul stated, God's decrees are unfathomable and His ways incomprehensible to most of mankind (Rom. 11:33). He has blinded the majority so that they cannot understand His plan or how it is being accomplished.
Even among believers, what God is doing is not well understood. However, when all is said and done, it will be recognized by everyone that God alone is responsible for the salvation of humanity. No one will be able to boast that they played any part in their own salvation.
It is by God's grace alone, not our works, that our Father will bring us into His divine family. In this way, God the Father will receive all the praise and glory from His children for His merciful act of salvation.
Bryan T. Huie
November 22, 2009