Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Reading today's reflection on scripture from isomam, I came across one of the things that Jesus said to his disciples: "Anyone who believes in me does not believe in me only. He also believes in the One who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the One who sent me." -John 12:44-45 :read:

I was personally raised to believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost as being three in one...how ever, this scripture alone caught my interest. :huh: Especially since as of late I have been hearing a lot about the Trinity being of three different concepts, something of which until recently I will honestly say I had problems getting past, :scratchhead: because of how many times within a church discussion I had been told it and taught it. :pray: And taught it myself during counsellor-camper discovery groups :camp: (I guess that's a case of the blind leading the blind). However, looking through, never once have I found an occasion that Jesus thought himself God. He speaks of God as his father, an entirely separate being, and when he was resurrected, the Holy Spirit was poured out, but he was not that Spirit. And today, this scripture, truely made me realize that. And made me realize maybe why there is this constant confusion about the identity of who we worship. When we look at Jesus and his teachings, we see God, "the one who sent him". :worthy:

Just my thoughts for the night. And by the way isomam, thanks :ok:, I'm not feeling too old yet, lol. God bless. :heartbeat:

Huraaaayy,, I am very glad for you:thumbsup:

IT really is simple,, Father / and Son just as he said many times over.. althou a very very close relationship.. the type that one could finish the others sentence I think..

Good to see you draka.

Yes, I was taught the Trinity at a young age and never could wrap my head around it.

The biggest question that goes unanswered for me is why would our Heavenly Father make it soooooo difficult for us to understand him, and his son, especially since he wants us to know him and love him!

When its bottom lined, the relationship of the Father and Son was put in terms we all could understand; Father, Son.

Simple!


:prop:--:ok:--:priest:

Hello Friends....hope you are well today...:giverose::hibye:

All three are working together.....can you separate any one and have the will being done.....and the will and purposes of the Father are being accomplished through Christ Jesus...and through the Holy Spirit....we can not deny This simple fact.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.....in that order....

One of our posters here SOC/Chuck in one of his essays said it good....all throughout the bible Jehovah has appointed ones to be worshiped....when the serpent was raised up representing the Christ....also when King David was seated on the throne as King in Israel, and ultimately The Son who he wants worshiped.

But the point is the threesome are accomplishing the Fathers will...that is what I see the trinity representing...the Father using the Son and the Holy Spirit....this makes two persons and the Holy Spirit....some want to call the Holy Spirit a person....thats their right to....but for myself, I see it being used by the Father and the Son, and I can understand ones who see the Holy Spirit as a person as it's spoken of in that way sometimes...I just never understood why the Holy Spirit was not given a name and why it was not mentioned in Rev. as being on the throne forever with God and the Lamb being served forever....but to each their own in what they understand the scriptures to be saying.

The main thing is to accept Jesus as the Son of God...by doing this we accept the Father....by denying the Son, we are denying the Father....what we give to the Son all goes to the Father....we can not give too much to the Son....as it's all to the Glory of the Father.

Well so much for my little insignificant thoughts....they are working for me though in my walk to the Father through the Son.:heartbeat:

your friend:hug:

Sandi

To me, the Holy Spirit was an angel, the voice of God. Though many of the older religions base on a trinity of some sort. The Celts had their triple war goddess Brigid, the Pagans have the Maiden, Mother and Crone, and some of the Nordics thought of a triple Lord. Child, Ranger and the Elder. The trinity is nothing new. But I do agree with the fact that Jesus, God and the Spirit were three different beings. :read:

Hi everyone!

How many gods are there?

From a Biblical perspective there is only one true God.

The following are some scriptures that show that there is only one God.

“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3 NASB, emphasis mine)

“So that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.” (Psalms 83:18 MKJV, emphasis mine)

“’You are My witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.’” (Isaiah 43:10 NASB, emphasis mine)

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.’” (Isaiah 44:6 NASB, emphasis mine; compare Revelation 1:17-18; 2:8)

“Do not tremble and do not be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” (Isaiah 44:8 NASB, emphasis mine)

“Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone.’” (Isaiah 44:24 NASB, emphasis mine)

“I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God.” (Isaiah 45:5 NASB, emphasis mine)

“Declare and set forth your case; indeed, let them consult together who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:21-22 NASB, emphasis mine)

“Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 NASB, emphasis mine)

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6 NASB, emphasis mine)

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5 NASB, emphasis mine)

Shall I go on? Do not forget the first of the Ten Commandments,

"You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3 NASB, emphasis mine)

This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to scriptures that prove that there is only one God. All other “gods” then are false gods, not really gods at all. (Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20)

Are angels Gods? Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods. Demonic spirits are not gods, but the power behind false worship. (Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8)

Are men Gods? Scripture never explicitly states that men are gods. There is no one like God. (Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 25: 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18)

If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God. Now we come to the question at hand.

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6 NASB)

Jesus is clearly called "Mighty God". You might be quick to respond, “He is a mighty God, but not almighty God”. Well there are two problems with that answer. First, how many Gods are there? If Jesus is a mighty god, then doesn't that mean there are two gods? The scriptures above show there is only one God. Secondly, in Isaiah 10:21, Jehovah is called the Mighty God. So if Jesus is the mighty God, then that makes Jesus God since Jehovah is called the mighty God, and there can not be two mighty Gods.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2 NASB) Once again, you will be quick to say, “That’s a bad translation. It should read, ‘a god’.” Well in the appendix on page 1047 of the Kingdom Interlinear, it there admits that when the Greek says, “kai Theos en ho Logos” it means the “Logos has the nature of Theos”. The best translation of John 1:1 that I have seen is, “In the beginning the Word already existed, and the Word was with God, and the Word was what God was.” Jesus has the nature of God. He can not be God in any other way except he is everything that Jehovah is. Even if Jesus is here called ‘a god’, since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. We know that there is only one God and that all other gods are false gods. Then I ask you, is the Word a true God or a false God? The problem with the Society’s understanding is that they fail to understand that every "God" besides Jehovah is a false God. God says to have no other God before Him (Exodus 20:3) because they are not by nature gods (Gal. 4:8). However Jesus is by nature, God. He is worshiped and if he isn't God, then that is a direct violation of Exodus 20:3.

Jesus is God, but he isn't the Father. Jesus just as much "God" as the Father is, but Jesus is subordinate relationally to God.

Perhaps many here should brush up on their history. The idea that Jesus is not God, but a created being, was invented by a Bishop named Arius around the year 300 A.D. and it was the new thing. The council of Nicea in 325 A.D. was to resolve the disputes surrounding this new teaching. After a thorough examination of the evidence the council voted against Arius. Only Arius and a few of his closest friends voted for this new teaching. "Arianism", as it is called, was condemned as heresy.


Just my thoughts,

matt

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"

Phil2: 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Jesus by nature is God.....how can he by nature be "a god"...if he is the exact reflection of his Father...is the Father by nature " a god"..

Gee I think I'm beginning to understand this trinity thing:ok:nd it's making more sense than what the WTS teaches...

Take Care

Hi Mavos

Isn't this the same council that was presided over by the Roman emperor? Isn't this the true start of the Roman Catholic Church (in contrast to the church in Rome), and its infallible Vicar of Christ on earth, the Pontifex Maximus?

Jesus is not saying that He isn't God. He is trying to get the person who called Him good to understand that he is God.

Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man, and subject to the Father. This does not negate the fact that Jesus is by nature, God. In texts like these, "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.

The fact that Jesus is the Son of God, does not change the fact that he is by nature God. "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." - John 5:18

The word for grasped indicates to "hold onto". The picture is of a child and a toy the child refuses to let go.

The Good News Bible properly translates the meaning of this verse:

"He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God."

Constantine called for the council. He did not preside over it. Constantine was an Arian, and remained one until his death.

A few scriptures I am currently reflecting on...

The Father cannot be the Son...

Hebrews 1:5...

"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

The Sons position is beside the Father...

Acts 2:34...

",‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”

The Son is glorified by the Father...

John 8:54...

"Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him."

The Son asks the Father ....

"And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” ...Mark 23:46...


In the same manner that the head of man is Christ; the head of Christ is YHWH.

1 Corinthians 11:3...

"But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."

The Son and Father are seperate...

John 14:28...

"YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father,"...

The Father is greater than the Son..."...because the Father is greater than I am."

God cannot lie (neither can Jesus because...Hebrews 1:3 states "He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being,")

Hebrews 6:18...

"...it is impossible for God to lie,.."

Christian love,

gogh

Mavos,

This seems to be a rather simplistic way of looking at history. I don't think it was this black and white. Have you read Rubenstein's, "When Jesus Became God?". It details the whole ugly affair. The whole Arian v. Athanasius controversy brewed for years and depending on which side the current Emperor favored the other side found themselves banished or excommunicated for "heresy". Even sadder was when the proponents of both sides resorted to violence and other non-Christian methods to support their viewpoint.

As far as the Nicene Council goes, Constantine was far from the impartial observer. His weight on the council was felt when he got the Greek word "homoousious" placed in the creed to descibe the similar substance of the Father and the Son. This word would cause more trouble and controversy down the line.

There are many more details to this. It's a fascinating historical study that is often clouded by people's theological leanings.

I respect your views Mavos,

But as I have just cut and pasted scripts. my belief is cut and developed in the same manner.

I have never let anything but the scriptures tell me how things are.

Peace to u.

If we are to become as Christ is, being transformed by becoming his brothers and sisters, well then do we become God..?? if Jesus is God and we are his brother ...would that not mean we would become a god??

But rather does not Revelation say we are to become a child of God?? I have a hard time seeing past this question??

Also that vs in Isaiah 9:6 'might God' it has also been said these words COULD be translated to read 'divine hero'.

Digging

Hi Mavos,

I have a question about the trinity. I'm not 'sold' to either camp (pro or con).

If Jesus was God himself, why didn't he already have the Holy Spirit at his birth? Matt. 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, and John 1:32 state the Holy Spirit desended upon him, at his baptism. If they are '3 in one' how could they exist without all 3 parts?