Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Lots has been said about the move from Kingdom Hall to church and the pros and cons of it, the rightness or wrongness of it etc. I think a lot of us used to just assume that this internet forum world was the wilderness. I’m tempted to say it’s a pretty well inhabited wilderness by now, but I guess everything’s relative.

I don’t really know much more than the reference in Ezekiel to the lousy shepherds and the scattered sheep. I think it’s possible that the prophet might not have had anyone as far into the future as ourselves in mind.

What would a Christian gain from understanding what the wilderness means and their place in the scheme of things according to the understanding they might get. It might be a completely internalised world, a spiritual attitude located only in our minds, or at the most extreme, it might be a quasi-hippy type movement involving getting away from cities to a simpler lifestyle.

What is wrong with a pick’n’mix approach? A bit of all, maybe even with a bit of personal meditation thrown in for good measure? That New Agey stuff can be useful in small doses, I think.

The last thing that I can think of is whether there is an issue of brotherhood and fellowship arising from the different choices?

Might any "wilderness" condition not also include "pasturage"?

John 10:9...

" I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture."

:coffeeread:

I believe that there is no exegetical warrant of any Bible passage to claim that "the wilderness" means we are not supposed to be part of a local community of believers. The New Testament clearly paints the picture of a community of "called out ones", who gather regularly to hear the Bible's Teachings, for Fellowship, Prayer, and the Lord Supper. The New Testament has no place for "lone ranger" Christians. The passage in Hebrews 13:13 about going to Christ outside the camp tells us that the godly followers of Christ must go out of the world, not the Church.

In these words I mean no disrespect to any here, but that is what I think the Bible says, and I have to be true to that.

Grace and peace to you,

Matt

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind, gogh, but I was reminded that people who left their organised religion were told that they were cutting themselves off from the source of spiritual food. There seems to be no end to spiritual food in this forum wilderness - sometimes I get a bad case of indigestion from the huge meals served up :eat:.

So Christ will provide the food. There seem to be plenty of examples of food delivered out to the wilderness, from the exodus to Ezekiel, I think, getting fed by some old lady, and the woman fed for so many days etc.

I often wonder if the verse about 'where the vultures (or eagles, some say) rest, there you will find the food' might be relevant here.

Hey everyone:hibye:

I'm just rushing around right now, but would love to do some research and post more extensively on this thread later.

I'm jumping off from Ezekiel 34 where it talks, not only of bad and neglectful shepherds, but also of sheep of different sorts. Ezekiel 34:1-6 speaks of the neglectful shepherds. If religious leaders fit the picture then they do, if not, then they don't. This is not a blanket judgment against all pastors. There are some good ones out there. And if you've found one then you are indeed blessed.

"And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy, and you must say to them, to the shepherds, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have become feeders of themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds ought to feed? The fat is what YOU eat, and with the wool YOU clothe your own selves. The plump animal is what YOU slaughter. The flock itself YOU do not feed. The sickened ones YOU have not strengthened, and the ailing one YOU have not healed, and the broken one YOU have not bandaged, and the dispersed one YOU have not brought back, and the lost one YOU have not sought to find, but with harshness YOU have had them in subjection, even with tyranny. And they were gradually scattered because of there being no shepherd, so that they became food for every wild beast of the field, and they continued to be scattered. My sheep kept straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; and on all the surface of the earth my sheep were scattered, with no one making a search and with no one seeking to find." -- Ezekiel 34:1-6

This scripture was used in a WT in 1994 and that's when I really started to pay attention to it. We had a situation in our area where there was noticeable corruption and neglect from the leadership. Needless to say, this scripture was not even read at our WT study. I read it aloud in my comment and then said: "No elder would ever want to fit this description." I'm sure that went over with the elders like a lead balloon.:P

More later -- gotta run! :jogging:

Rez:siskiss:

PS to Mavos:

Later, when I have a moment I will reply to your point. I just want to say that some of us are extremely limited in our choices. When I, for instance, say I'm in the wilderness, it is not by choice. Neither am I isolating myself. I didn't walk out of the synagogue, I was thrown out. As Jesus said would happen to some.

“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. Men will expel YOU from the synagogue (footnote *or: unchurched). In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU." -- John 16:1-4

Those groups who claim to be the sole source of spiritual food are many times not even Christian. The WT is a prime example of this. No group that would deny Christ so vehemently can be Christian. God provides us spiritual food by His Spirit, through his Word. There is still no basis for not being part of a local community of Christians.

There is no reason to interpret those passages spiritually. I think spirualizing passages that don't need to be is a major error in Biblical Interpretation. The WT's interpretation of the Tree Dream in Daniel 4 is a prime example. There was no need to make that spiritual or about the second coming at all. The same is true with the narratives that tell us that God fed people in the wilderness. The true application of that is, "Seek first the kingdom and all things will be added to you". God will provide for the physical needs of his servants. No need to spiritualize this, nothing in the context would indicate this, nor anything in the NT.

Thanks for that. A balanced caveat. While the scripture you quoted applies primarily to Israel, modern pastors should also take heed of the Lord's warning. Some just blanket sweep all pastors and churches as under God's judgment. This is unbalanced and I thank you for being very balanced. Some sheep too will find a many bad pastors, and refuse to search for any good ones. If they find one, they are indeed blessed, and perhaps that's why Paul calls them a "gift" from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but they got together as a community of believers. That is my point. You know of fellow believers who share your views even in your own community. Don't you live near Willa and her husband? Could not you, thinking man, Willa and her husband do something? It could be simply getting together one day a week for a meal/bible study/Lord's supper. There may only be four of you. I'm not advocating joining any group in particular. I'm advocating weekly, regular. real life interaction with fellow believers in our communities, not just on the Net. Sometimes a particular congregation fits the bill, sometimes you have to start your own home fellowship. The Spirit will lead.

Grace and peace to you,

Matt

Copied from other thread.
Wilderness:

I think each of us, perhaps have a different experience.
Perhaps we should define what we mean....It seems a rather loose metaphor alluding to Jesus 40 days and the Israelites 40 years. I don't see it as an anti-type or fulfillment, just a convenient way of expressing a christian life experience.

What I mean by Wilderness is the time after I stopped going to meetings and before I associated with any other Christians.
It took about ten years in my case. Of course there were no forums or internet capable home PC's then, either.

If all that people mean by way of "wilderness" is a metaphor for their experience, then I'm fine. My problem comes from the fact that the scriptures do not use the "wilderness" to metaphorically symbolize what many people here mean by the metaphor. As long as we agree that the "wilderness" metaphor isn't used that way in scripture, then I have no problem with the metaphor.

Matt

Matt, you are saying that we should strip meanings down to their probable meaning in their own historical or spiritual context - at least I think that’s how you prefer it.

What I mean by this is that you would say not to embellish on the matter of the manna or Ezekiel getting fed. But while I think you are probably avoiding unnecessary misinterpretation (speculation), it takes away some of the fun and interest in trying to make the pieces fit. I use the same type of defence when people are irritated by my ideas that are conspiracy theory. In other words, I’m exercising the little grey cells and if I don’t get carried away so far that I think my wild ideas are pure fact, I’ll stay sane and I can drop ideas that prove over time to be wrong.

I think there is precedence in scripture, though, for some multi-layered interpretations. I suppose it depends on whether a person is a preterist or not. Some physical and spiritual events can be linked in what I would class as lateral thinking, such as Jesus (John 6) comparing the physical food in the real wilderness with the spiritual food in the spiritual wilderness (you would have to see it from my perspective for a moment to see where I’m coming from, if you don’t see yourself as living in a spiritual wilderness).

But I think that the seed for the idea of living in the wilderness is inextricably linked with getting out of Babylon. Gail has widened the matter by writing that she did not get out of Babylon – Babylon told her to go! Now what’s a person to do – just stay out or join a different flavour of Babylon? Or a bit of both as I do?

Me, I say do as your learning level, your life experience as a Christian and your conscience lead you. I’m very reluctant to even say we should go where the spirit leads us, because many of us have gone into daft places, fully convinced that the spirit was behind the decision.

Regards,
Brendan.

Brendan,

I think of wilderness more along the lines of Ezekiel Chapter 20.

Ezekiel 20
33 “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people. 34 And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage. 35 And I will bring YOU into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with YOU there face to face.
36 “‘Just as I put myself on judgment with YOUR forefathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I shall put myself on judgment with YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. 37 ‘And I will make YOU pass under the rod and bring YOU into the bond of the covenant. 38 And I will clean out from YOU the revolters and the transgressors against me, for out of the land of their alien residence I shall bring them forth, but onto the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am Jehovah.’


The wilderness is the place where the refining happens.

Before entering into the promised land.

Notice also that Jehovah wants to bring people under the covenant.

Why would that be required if the holy covenant was not undermined?

Yes, the same covenant inaugurated by Jesus Christ. The covenant which allow Christians to enter the temple.

Ezekiel 21
Is it rejecting the scepter of my own son, as [it does] every tree?

I initiated another thread called "The low plain of Achor" some time ago which also speaks a great deal about the end time wilderness condition.

I believe that it is in the wilderness where we will actually be refined... or not.


Malachi 3
2 “But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.


In Christ

abe

Being an ex-JW who went through many years of hell because of the Tower's spiritual terrorism, making catastrophic mistakes due to Pharisee-based fear of ticking off God, I at least try to plant seeds that might make people think outside the box a little bit and spare them some grief and pain while getting answers for the cognitive dissonance that they have. You see, I LOVE Jehovah's Witnesses, and I passionately feel for them because they are in spiritual captivity far more shackling than anything Christendom has to offer. This is one of the places that many of them may end up if they should reach rock bottom and dare go on the Internet. It's a ludicrous shame that its way too mystical to talk about human DNA or anything metaphysical, which is real and verifiable science that is reshaping the way we have thought for millennia.

The Internet is a gift from God designed for this very purpose of enlightenment, the enlightenment you are all waiting for, and you still can't get up the courage to go outside your Bibles. It's way too mystical for the average Western mindset, let alone a JW-branded mindset. (I recently read in a book on brain research that Western people think "linear" while Eastern think more "quantum".) It's time to open your minds and hearts to the latter day rain.

I can tell you that unless you look into these things, you will be stuck on the lowest station of AM radio while those in the wilderness who braved the elements and didn't let others stifle their spirituality head off into VHF, UHF, Ultraviolet, Gamma.......and Mammagamma...:D I am not advocating tossing your Bibles away, I'm suggesting opening to metaphysical interpretations of it, because the one we've been stuck on has not had any unifying effect on Christianity whatsoever. As I've said, it's not what Nicea allowed into the canon, it's what they kept out of it.

Ciao,
Jimmy C.

I wish! :grouphug:
I live in Indiana - they're in Nova Scotia!

All I can say for now is that it's not my choice to be in 'the wilderness' right now, but that's where I find myself. As far out in the country as I live(I had to drive over 20 miles each way to attend the nearest KH) there's not much to choose from - and even those I'd rejected before becoming a JW... so much hypocracy it's unreal... My in-laws go to a church that I'd attended some 30 years ago, and all they do is complain. I guess their pastor gets his 'sermons' off the internet and he doesn't discuss much that's particularly spiritual. It's a real shame - when I attended there was an older pastor and I thought he did a pretty good job. Their 'music ministry' is geared toward the young and I just don't like it. "Gimme that old time religion" - but where to find it? I so agree that if you've found a suitable church, you're blessed - don't take that for granted!

I'll comment more later, when I get some time, Brendan - a good topic to discuss!

:peace:

I think I meant BruisedReed and her husband. Sorry! :redface:

That is exactly what I am saying. This is called "exegesis". Bringing the meaning out of the text from it's historical, spiritual, and literary context. From this you find out what it teaches by way of doctrine, and then see how to apply this to your own context. As for the rest of what you said, I just see going beyond the intended meaning as very dangerous. If the plain sense makes sense than seek no other sense or else you will have nonsense.

Matt

Prodigal Son,

I think the Internet does indeed fulfill a bible prophecy which talks directly about being fed in the wilderness immediately before the time of the end.


Revelation 12:14-15
14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river (of lies) that the dragon disgorged from its mouth.

I believe that Satan is having success undermining the body of Christ with very insidious, subtle lies. He has done this through organized religion.

What has the earth provided which is capable of swallowing up the lies?

The Internet!

I believe that if you are looking for truths on the Internet then you have indeed found a place away from Satan's face.

The Internet is an amazing place where lies can be examined and truths discovered.

All provided by the earth.

Keep in mind however, that if you eventually discern Satan's urighteous deception (see 2nd TH Ch2) then you are at war.

You will have become the bullseye of Satan's target.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

Yes, even here in this Internet Wilderness Satan will try and undermine us.

It is all a part of the refining process that Jesus Christ is allowing.

Daniel 11:34
But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

I expect to be in the wilderness until the end.

This is a critical, and yet appointed time in every Christian's life.

Satan has gone to war!

Against those in the wilderness.


In Christ

abe