Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Yannis!
This is much more then just the proper pronunciation of God's name. Its about the most horrendous and Satanic deception in human history. We know and agree that Satan is the father of the lie,
and the great deceiver, so how should this affect us? You are right that Jesus came into our world as truth and light. Thats why he called our father, Father. When I first learned the name Jehovah I was thrilled and excited. Now I'm thrilled to know I can call God my father.

So God revealed Himself to Moses as YHWH but as we know God has revealed Himself to Man in various ways and means and is not done yet until a still greater revelation of His person which is to come.

( Just a reminder that in 1 Peter 1:11 we are told "the Spirit of Christ" was directing what the prophets wrote concerning the sufferings. )

Hebrews 1

God’s Supreme Revelation

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


The Son Exalted Above Angels

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:


“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”? ( Answer = NONE )

And again:


“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”


7 And of the angels He says:


“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”


8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”



10 And:[u]



“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:



“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?



I find it VERY hard to understand why spend all this time on a name God revealed to Israel long ago.

It reminds me of another previous mistake.

Using Isaiah 43:10 which clearly applies to Israel and NOT the Church/Christians.

10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.


Instead of what is revealed in the NT.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”


Now here is where I BEG someone at least ONE person answer me this ONE question.

WHY does Paul, this Jewish Rabbi ( trained under Gamaliel ) have the Father applying PS 102: 25-27 to the Son and adding " You LORD " to the opening lines of the quote?



It appears to me that Jesus who was made "a little lower than the Angels " ( Heb 2 )= Mankind

Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.


( that's a little strange is it a typo? " Was made " ," Made Himself " )

He was Higher than the Angels as their Creator = God

Did Jesus create the Angels? Yes!

The one whose form was "God" before lowering Himself by becoming a man and after obtaining Salvation for mankind returns Exalted to the highest " given a name that is above EVERY NAME" .

Since Heb 1:3,Col 1:15-17,2:9,John 1:14,1 John 1:1-3 tell us that Jesus is basically God stamped out in Human flesh with Heb 1 written to show the Superiority of Christ to the Angels with the wonderful quote from the Psalms pointing to just how far aboven them and us He is.


So God's name? Clearly and painfully is? The LORD JESUS CHRIST.

No wonder there is not a single Hallelujah until Rev 19 when a Great name appears!

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The revelation or " Unveiling of Jesus Christ " no more Lamb but the Lion of the Tribe of Judah who will prevail!!!

Not the rejected King of the Jews but " THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuLr5rQmp0

" Til He comes "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Hey, VeeRay:hibye:

I tried to watch the opening vids, really I did.:( I just couldn't see myself watching 15 of them just on one point. Like...how much needs to be said in order to make a good argument.

It was difficult to even get through one. On the other hand those last two vids were well presented, without a lot of hype. Perhaps it was the extreme hype that got to me on the first ones.

Another thing is, when I'm looking at what someone says on a certain subject I like to also know what their body of beliefs is. There was just no way to determine this from their website. There was just a heck of a lot of conspiracy stuff and fear-mongering.

My opinion: Forget the first two. They have no scriptural basis that I can determine. But do watch the two videos from the "Ancient Hebrew Research Center". The are very credible. A quote from their main page:

The two black guys probably mean well but they are not really knowledgeable IMO. (even in their panic-mongering about micro-chip implanting being related to the "mark")

love,
Rez:P

Thank you for presenting Jesus words anja...

"My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me."

:coffeeread:

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matt 11:27

He revealed His name to me. He sealed me with His name. "Not only Shall you be called Faithful, but you shall be called, "Faithful and Truth."

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth

With Moses He spoke His name...

Exodus 34: 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5.And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6. And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,


Isaiah 25
1. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. KJV

pay close attention to verse 5 of exodus 34.

And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

Righteousness and Truth
Goodness and Truth
Faithfulness and Truth
Grace and Truth

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

:heartbeat:
New Heart

Very nice N H! Please be more specific as to the point you're making.

It is seeming to me more and more, that God does not desire us to address him with a proper name. Every name we call him, is really a discription of his qualities. Just thinking.

Dear E-magine,

yes, this is the point I am trying to make. Thats why God said,"I AM THAT I AM."

He IS these qualities.

God IS "Love and Truth"

He IS many things or qualities, But He is always going to be called "TRUTH".

Most of all, the main thing I have been trying to say all along from the beginning, is this ....

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. Rev. 3:12

I have been given Christ's "New Name", the name He wants me to be called, and not only me, but all those who belong to "New Jerusalem."

Isaiah 62:2 The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

I am God's messenger, and I am telling you the truth.

Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he ceives it.'

I received the white stone on the top of a high mountain, high in a white cloud, and the finger of God carved it out right before my eyes, and this is where He wrote and then spoke to me, "NOT ONLY SHALL YOU BE CALLED FAITHFUL, BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED ,"FAITHFUL AND TRUTH."

This is not blasphomy, this is the truth.

Hebrews 13:14 For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.

I will restore your judges as in days of old, your counselors as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City." Isaiah 1:26

Zechariah 8:3 "Thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.'

Isaiah 60:14 "The sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you, And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet; And they will call you the city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

this city is for those who worship God in spiritual Zion, in complete faith and truth. A place where loyal to Christ citizens will live .

Jesus said, "In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth." John 18:38

one question NH,

you say,
"I have been given Christ's "New Name", the name He wants me to be called, and not only me, but all those who belong to "New Jerusalem.""

rev2:17'(A)He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (B)To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden ©manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a (D)new name written on the stone (E)which no one knows but he who receives it.'

How can all recieve the same name? I may be off but it seems to be a very personal thing a name between our Father and each individual child?


fg

Good question TotalD

Re: "How can all receive the same name?"

The quoted scripture explains, yes:

"...which no one knows but he who receives it.' "

Therefore the name given is unique to the one receiving it?...yes?


Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

At this late date I wish to respond to veeray and commend him for giving us a heads-up on the above vids. The others I only endured a little since I soon tired of their pontificating and badgering of my intellect. It didn’t matter what colour the two guys were, they seemed only bent on revealing something they thought extremely profound but which I found ponderously irksome.

The other two (above) were by far more scholarly—not just because they were simplified for us poor gentiles (of latin-based language groups), but they were presented in a kindly manner, the candor of which made me want to repent of my gentilian attitudes and become more Hebraic in my thinking.

What can I say? If I was the apostle Paul I would sooner repent in dust and ashes now than be reproved later for disregarding the sacredness of a name so profound that it commands my very character—something Jehovah’s Witnesses, by and large, will need to reexamine within themselves.

What else can I say? As I watched—my spirit filling with a new enlightenment—I thought, had I been born Jewish, or had been proselytized when Judaism was yet valid, I would have commended the Law for bringing circumcision of the heart to the for of all that was physically commanded. But now I wonder if I would have even had the patience of Paul in expending myself upon those wanting to perpetuate physical circumcision upon us gentiles.

Not to digress—having viewed these videos I was irreversably struck by their unchangeable simplicity. How intriguing—that all creation should be given language to understand the environment wherein it found itself—humans or otherwise. None were designed to presume beyond what was given, so that Hebrew was the perfect language for humans. A vibrant, dynamic language, in terms of life and meaning, is far more inspiring than that which gives itself to time and invention.

If I could summarize the Divine Name and its meaning (while in itself it has no meaning of consequence) for us, it is this: We are human, earthbound, living parallel to creatures of a higher, spiritual environment who were and still are untouchable by the physical. Allowance was made for our environment to be invaded and misshapened by some of those creatures, to challenge our own willingness to worship a God we know just enough to accept the limited access we have. A giant leap of faith for the likes of Abraham who demonstrated so much for the little that was given him that would so profoundly give his offspring an inheritance so longlasting they would soon forget.

So it makes sense to me that the command not to take the name of God in vain is to live by all that His name lives up to—being like God in how we love one another as we are loved by Him. He has been most kind to us in our ignorance, yet even more kind to the Jews who persisted in violating the sacred words given them—we all have much more to learn.

Oy, if I only had more Jewish friends!:thumbsup:

Love,

sw

Looking at the Arguments: "Argument 1"

Exodus 3:13
Moses asks: “what is your name?”
God's answer: EHYH Asher EHYH - “I am that I am”

* “Sam and Dave” have three general Arguments in their claim that God’s name is really Ahayah - not Yahweh. They are claiming that the name Yahweh was a later insertion into early versions of the Scriptures by Baal worshipping Kabalist Jews within the nation of ancient Israel, who switched God’s real name of EHYH Asher EHYH (I AM, or Ahayah) with the YHWH (Jehovah) throughout the Old Testament everywhere except Exodus 3:14. Then during the 6th – 10th centuries the Masoretes established the vowel point system that brings the YHWH form to its present use of Jehovah and its various derivatives. I here attempt to present the **Arguments as I understand them to be, with a view of first understanding the component points and then analyzing for accuracy; if this can even be done I’m not sure it can but that’s why I’m attempting this.

Argument 1
Per Part 1 of the Sam and Dave video, and based on Exodus 6:2,3, the True God’s personal name was totally unknown to mankind prior to Exodus 3 - God having revealed himself only as God Almighty, El Shaddai. Therefore since the YHWH Tetragrammaton now exists in extant copies of the Scriptures thousands of times, the YHWH had to have been a later invention/insertion as the original autographs written by Moses would have had El Shaddai instead.

The Scriptural chain of reasoning per Sam and Dave
Exodus 3:13 -15
13 Moses asks God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "*I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM (EHYH) has sent me to you.' "

15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'YHWH, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Exodus 6:2,3
2 And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.


Discussion
As I’m understanding Sam and Dave’s Argument 1, in Exodus 6:2,3 God says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not know God’s personal name, and only knew God by his revealed title of God Almighty, or El Shaddai. I’ve usually thought that this Scripture meant that Abraham etc knew God as YHWH, but had yet to experience God’s purposes fulfilled upon them.

But Abraham saw at least one promise fulfilled upon him that certainly showed him God’s power in fulfilling his promises, that of he and Sarah having a child as promised in their old age. Same thing with Jacob (Israel), who saw the fulfillment in his lifetime of the beginning of the twelve tribes of Israel that would eventually become as the stars in the heavens for number as promised to Abraham. And Noah saw the flood, another definite display of God. How about Adam and Eve, they certainly saw the fulfillment of God’s statements to them.

Question 1 for the forum: Does Exodus 6:2-3 prove that God’s name was not known prior to Moses hearing it at the burning bush?



v r



* Notes
“Sam and Dave” are names I coined for the two guys presenting the videos in the opening post on this thread - given they do not say what their names are - and it gives me a more respectful way to refer to them other than “the two black guys” that someone started using.

** I am simply working to clarify the points Sam and Dave are making, with the goal for achieving some basis for understanding the details of the claims, to determine whether the contentions have any merit or not. I am attempting to reach Sam and Dave and ask them to clarify certain points and questions I have around Argument 1. I definitely am not convinced at this point that Sam and Dave’s claims are soundly based and accurate. I am not overtly or subliminally trying to convince the forum that Sam and Dave’s contentions are true and accurate. I actually am hoping to reasonably debunk all this so I can go back to using YHWH with confidence, and not be paranoid I’m using a name for Satan in theological discussions and prayers. This thread should not be about whether we don’t like the idea that God’s name might not be what we think it is, it should be about working to establish the veracity of an argument pro or con like we try to do with any other of the crazy topics we address here - and are supposed do be doing - per the Scriptures.

Rather than you going to all that work, v r, why not just send them the last two vids you posted from the "Ancient Hebrew Research Center"? Get them to comment on where they get their conspiracy since the two Hebrew names are, as Hebrew scholars say, "related," and not necessarily different. In other words, why can't they be harmonized instead of mystified? Then again, if one wants to form a religion, it must begin with controversy, so be warned (as so many arguments turn out to be when based on pure supposition), your argument may well turn out to be an imperfect Hebrew verb, "incomplete and continuous." :dontknow:

sw

Intro
This thread was my own inquiry into the claim by a couple utube posters (dubbed Sam and Dave since they do not give their names) and others that present the claims that the YHWH and its derivative proper nouns Yahweh, Jehovah, etc are in reality names for Satan, and that the real name of the Most High God is Ahayah. During the past number of months I have worked to gather and analyze the information available in an effort to with some reasonableness determine whether the claim had merit, and if so what I was going to do about it personally as far as what name I would use for the Almighty.

As with any investigative process it often occurs that in the process of researching one question or issue, answers or insights are found into other questions or issues. During the research into the YHWH question, I found key information particular to another area of research I have been working on over the years, the question of Greek or Aramaic language *primacy of the New Testament – that interestingly put a great deal of weight into the YHWH answers as well as the question of NT primacy.

The information contained here is a summary to provide the evident answers to the core YHWH question.

Questions
Are YHWH and its derivatives names for Satan?
Is the YHWH in the OT?
Is the YHWH in the NT?
Are Yahweh and Jehovah etc scripturally acceptable names for God?
Is Jehovah used in occult incantations and ceremonies?
Is Ahayah a name for God?


Are YHWH and its derivatives names for Satan?
Not that I have been able to tell. The claims by Sam and Dave that Kabalistic Jews during the 6th century BCE Babylonian captivity altered or changed the Divine Name in the Old Testament cannot be proven one way or the other. One reason is that there are no pre 6th century BCE OT manuscripts extant by which a comparison of the oldest extant 2nd century BCE OT manuscripts could be compared. Therefore the claim has no basis at least anywhere that can textually be proven - one way or the other. The claims that the Masoretes in the 10th century CE used vowels points to create the German based “Jehovah” form is true – but cannot be linked to the Jehovah form being a name for Satan - since it is merely based on the Tetragrammaton YHWH which as far as anyone can tell has existed in OT manuscripts and in use by the patriarchs since time immemorial.

Is the YHWH in the OT? Is the YHWH in the NT?
Yes to both questions, and here’s where the investigation took a very interesting turn. While the YHWH exists thousands of times in extant OT manuscripts, the YHWH exists in no extant Greek NT manuscripts, considered by most to be the original language used by the NT writers. Some Bible translations such as The New World Translation have engaged the practice of including the YHWH in the NT wherever there are quotes from the OT, but there are no Greek manuscripts that have the YHWH in the NT.

But the Aramaic Peshitta does have the YHWH in the NT – in extant manuscripts going back to the 400’s CE. It took me a while to find an Aramaic to English translation that actually included the YHWH in the NT, since all Peshitta translations I have use the typical practice of most translations and use the title LORD in all caps wherever reference is made to the Most High. I asked a couple Aramaic translators what actual Aramaic word was in the manuscript and could not get a straight answer until recently with a commentator of the new translation from the Aramaic NT, The Original Aramaic New Testament In Plain English by Glenn David Bauscher, available at *Lulu Publishing, which explained that the Aramaic word for the Hebrew YHWH translates to MarYah, or Mariah, meaning Lord(Mar)Yah. So this translation that I recently purchased has “Jehovah” in the actual NT text wherever the Aramaic word MarYah is! Along with a lot of interesting discussion around the “primacy” question in general, this translation is well worth the money and the author’s website is a great source of information. There are other issues raised with the translation, and the trinity camp (of which I am not one) will get textual grist for their claims that God is a trinity.

It appears very convincing after studying the primacy question for a number of years that the Aramaic indeed was the original NT language, and that early on was translated into the Greek which explains the many strange errors and conflicts in all Greek NT manuscripts. The obvious problem is why would the NT not have the YHWH at least in places that are quoting the OT – that clearly does have the YHWH? No one has a really good answer for this question, but I’m guessing the translators from the original Aramaic into Greek, by that time influenced by faulty thinking, followed the practice of the Jews in using substitutes for the Divine Name. This is a guess on my part – there are other alleged answers such as the NT writers followed the practice of many versions of the OT Greek Septuagint where the YHWH was replaced by Adonai etc. due to the superstitious Jews that did not want to pronounce God’s sacred name. I never liked that line of reasoning myself.

Are the Yahweh and Jehovah etc forms scripturally acceptable names for God?
Per the available evidence, I am convinced that they are.

Is Jehovah used in occult incantations and ceremonies?
Yes. This is where things get strange. One example of the Jah form being used in occult writings and incantations is the proper noun Jahbulon, a concatenation of the “Jah” form along with some derivative names for Baal. The YHWH is in lots of apparently occult symbols (triangles with the All Seeing Eye etc), but I can’t tell whether this practice is actually a slam on the Divine Name or what. At any rate since the available evidence indicates that the YHWH form is God’s Name, I decided that until God Almighty himself tells us something different, I am confident with using the YHWH form and derivatives.

Is Ahayah a name for God?
I’m not a Hebrew scholar, and the whole vowel point thing throws me so the “I AM” EHYH Asher EHYH question appears to be something related to God and his name but I can’t tell for sure. The "I AM" thing is a really hot issue for many and I suspect plays to the thinking of persons looking for support for the trinity. I'm not slamming Trinitarians - I just don't see a "trinity" teaching in Scripture.

Conclusion
“Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine”. Due diligence is required as we work to “test every inspired expression” – no matter how crazy.



v r



* The “primacy” question pertains to the debate by Bible historians and scholars over which language the New Testament was originally written: Greek or Aramaic.


* http://aramaicnt.com/

Dear BethelBoy and All others

We indeed should be worried.....:D :D :D

I have found that this is the unike name of The Devine Almighty God in Heaven......which is correct to be expressed Yahweh or Jehovah.



It is interesting to read the commandments from Yahweh, to the Israelites which Jesus Christ fullfilled and exchanged with principles of Love, but the base can be read in Genesis chapter 20 but mainly in question of His name and who we shall worship, in versus 1 to 7:

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Which also include making Jesus hanging on a cross, bowing down and kiss him and make Jesus Christ to The Devine Almighty God in Heaven, Jehovah :shocked:

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

And so on.......


It seems that there is still a harping of rethorik going on, where even the original and the Scriptures we know of today, doesn't seems to have and had any impact, at those who believe in doctrines of men and man created images.

I will therefore kindly ask you all to read this again and let us know, whether you agree or not :thumbup:

.