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Mavos

04-10-2010, 03:02 PM

Totaldismay Wrote:
thanks for the correction..
my mermory is not what it used to be for sure..

now that you said that
it is very similar to believing on christ we can gain grace thru faith..
did not make that connection before to abraham.
I wonder if thathas something to do with his being called friend


Absolutely. That was my point. The basis for friendship between God and Abraham is the same as our basis for friendship in the NT, faith.

1 OF MINI

04-10-2010, 06:47 PM

Mavos Wrote:

1 OF MINI Wrote:
Here are some more of Jesus words...

John 5:19 (English Standard Version)

19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

And... there that little snippet from John 15:15, where Jesus said, "for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."


Our Master Jesus has merely imitated the Father's method of choosing friends.


John, I think you're original quote of John 15 is very applicable. However, the text you have quoted from John 5 needs some explaining. There are far more implications in those texts than just mere imitation. “Whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.” This is much different from saying: Jesus chooses some things to do that he sees the Father doing and so only does what the Father is doing. Nor is it saying he is doing them by imitation. It says, “Whatever the Father does,” Jesus does. When the Father acts, Jesus acts. He is saying "I can do whatever God does, absolutely anything." This is the sort of thing the Jews heard Jesus say. And they concluded rightly: You talk like you’re equal with him. You talk as if for him to act is for you to act—as if there is some kind of essential connection or union. You're really treating yourself as equal with God in the way you talk about God. And the amazing thing is, Jesus let's it stand. Here's what's going on in this passage, the Jews are saying, "Hey, you're talking as if you're equal with God." Jesus responds by saying, "Yeah, I can do whatever God does. I am the one who is going to judge, and you ought to worship, honor, and love me just as you do the Father." No mere creature can claim these things. The main issue in this text is the way the Father and the Son are equal. Jesus places himself in a subordinate role and function to the Father, but claims ontological equality. When one is acting the other is acting—there are two implications, first if we don’t honor the Son, we don’t honor the Father, and second, if we believe on the Father through the word of Jesus, we have already passed from death to life and are on the other side of condemnation.

Greetings Mavos,

Interesting argument.

However, any claim made for "ontological equality" is negated by Jesus statement where he says, "the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing."


accord
ac·cord (-kôrd)
n.
1. Agreement; harmony: act in accord with university policies.
2. A settlement or compromise of conflicting opinions.
3. A settlement of points at issue between nations.
4. Spontaneous or voluntary desire to take a certain action: The children returned on their own accord. He confessed of his own accord.

Since Jesus, by his own admission, can do nothing of his own accord; placing "himself in a subordinate role and function to the Father" is impossible, considering He was already there to start.

So it's back to imitation.

However, can we not agree that the Son imitating the Father is a good thing?

And, if we're chosen by the Son to be His friends, who imitates the Father; is that not a good thing also?

So, I'll stop on this point, because I'd rather not see this thread devolve into another unending debate about the you-know-what vs. the non-you-know-whats.



Mavos Wrote:
So to bring this back on subject, Jesus said we are his friends if we obey him.

No argument.


Mavos Wrote:
When one is acting the other is acting—there are two implications, first if we don’t honor the Son, we don’t honor the Father...

I just caught this...

I think I'll PM you on this one.


"two small coins"

LTA,
John

Mavos

04-10-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:
So, I'll stop on this point, because I'd rather not see this thread devolve into another unending debate about the you-know-what vs. the non-you-know-whats.


I will fully respond by way of PM so as to avoid this and not hijack this thread.

Matt

JWHVACR

04-11-2010, 09:07 AM
Actually, TD, He was many "friends." As Jesus pointed out (in John), His servants are actually "in" Him (and Jesus), and that isn't possible unless we are His friends.

Abraham was a great man, and almost alone in his relationship with Jehovah in his time. So, God referring to him as "His friend" was a special thing. But realize that the Bible word for "friend" (phileo was used by Paul as the step before "principled love" (agape). So, don't get too wrapped up in the WTS emphasis on that relationship.

Jesus said at John 15:14 "And if you do what I’m telling you, you’re my friends."

Totaldismay

04-11-2010, 12:35 PM
HI Jim,


I thank you for your thoughts and Yes he does seem to have more now thru Jesus association.

NOTICE if they did what he asks!!! very important for us to note

As for the JW thing you need not worry bout me on that I hold my own beliefs.. Based on my own stupidity..

I am asking because I think that alot can be inffered from biblical text as well as world observation about this very question..


For instance why are their people called wall flowers?
Why are some people followers while others are leaders?

I think these question s have a great influence on why GOD does not have alot of friends..

we have 6.xx billions of people and how many have ever lived?
I can only imagine what the number is in percent of who he would consider friend..

Can we Have love for people and not consider them a friend?
maybe I shoudln't, maybe I should
But I can

JWHVACR

04-11-2010, 01:01 PM
Hi my friend,

Yeah, I know what you mean... I find that there are so many nutty people who have reached their unchangeable conclusions based on so very little evidence, and they seem to hate all others who disagree with them. And I wonder if God counts them as friends.

Me? Who knows? I just try to keep an open mind.

We live in a very strange time! What I see goes against everything that I've always accepted as truth and fact.

Totaldismay

04-12-2010, 10:37 AM
What makes a friend?

What makes someone care?

GOD knows our heart!! our actions may not be an acurate representaion of our heart. So he forgives our inability to be Faithfull all the time while

" my people who will have looked for me. "

We have such a great and awesome author of Life...
WE need to seek him out. he will only reveal himself to honest hearts.

Abraham must have had a careing spirit within

Solomon was granted wisdom because he cared about it more than "other things"
David was granted kingship because he cared enough to put in life in GOD's hands and fully trust.
GOD cared soooo very much that he forsook his son to help us...


So I think that care and Love out of a pure motive are the only things that can and or will allow us to become GOD’s friend..

And YES we do live in a very strange time.
I am unclear as to what it all points but it sure has the feel of a big change... :thumbup:
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