Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I agree willa! Paul makes note of the difference:

"For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." - 2 Corinthians 7:10

Judas is an example of this. He had worldly sorrow, but wasn't truly repentant.

The real question is, how can they weep and gnash their teeth and have worldly grief if they are annihilated and don't exist in some shape or form? :whistle:

Willa,

In order to be humbly repentant a person first has to realize they have done something reprehensible.

Do misled people know they have been misled?

In order to realize they are continuing in a wicked way someone has to tell them.

Furthermore they have to listen to what is being explained to them.

If they refuse to listen they are still judged.

In order for them to listen someone righteous has to say something.


Ezekiel 22:1
And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 2 “And as for you, O son of man, will you judge, will you judge the bloodguilty city and certainly cause her to know all her detestable things?


Yes, Jesus Christ could look after saving the truly righteous ones all by himself even if they have been misled into doing extremely reprehensible things.

So we could do absolutely nothing and let him take care of it all.

I believe that Jesus Christ however, is expecting more than this from his righteous followers.

That is why he asks the question:

Matthew 24:45
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

So I believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth could extend to righteous people who can see the detestable things.

Is it righteous to just stand by and let Jesus Christ take care of the judgement when he returns, or is there an obligation for righteous people to also participate?

Could they in turn have an adverse judgement for not doing anything?

The thing is, after saying something like this, people will usually now object by saying; "who are we to judge?".

Let Jesus Christ take care of it.


Ezekiel 23:45
But as regards righteous men, they are the ones that will judge her with the judgment for adulteresses and with the judgment for female shedders of blood; for adulteresses are what they are, and there is blood on their hands.

So yes, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I also expect there will be misled righteous ones who are indeed saved.

Further to this I also expect there will be others; "At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen."

I personally don't think the righteous Christians who sit by and do nothing will be the ones that shine.

In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled righteous Christians cannot stand by and expect Jesus Christ is going to take care of everything:


Matthew 13:14
and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’

If you understand what I have posted above then you might realize there is more to weeping and gnashing of teeth than the immediately obvious.

Matthew 13:51
“Did YOU get the sense of all these things?” They said to him: “Yes.”

I believe that Jesus Christ explained these things for the benefit of righteous Christians, his followers.


Isaiah 58:6
“Is not this the fast that I choose? To loosen the fetters of wickedness, to release the bands of the yoke bar, and to send away the crushed ones free, and that YOU people should tear in two every yoke bar?


In Christ

abe

A few thoughts abe...

First off those who are unbelievers or those who are misled, deep down know the truth and know that they are being misled. Romans 1:18-23 makes this clear, that they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness", that "although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him".

Secondly, those who are "weeping and gnashing" their teeth are not righteous, but unrighteous. They are thrown into "outer darkness", the "the fiery furnace", and they will be "cut in pieces and put with the hypocrites". This is clearly the angish of unbelievers for failure to heed the gospel call to repentance. They are are excluded from the Kingdom, and are cast into "hell", eternal judgment. This is clear from many of the contexts where Jesus is said to separate good fish from bad ones, sheep from goats, wheat from chaff.

Thirdly, you mention "Jesus righteous servants". Paul says, "there is no one righteous, no not one." How do you account for that?

They are righteous because Christ was righteous in their place, and his righteousness has been given to them as a gift. It is considered as theirs and their sin is considered his. He paid for their sins. They can not fall.

"Cast your burden on the Lord,
and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved." - Psalm 55:22

As for who Christians will judge, we will judge those who survive Armageddon in Revelation 19. They are described as the nations and Gog and Magog in Revelation 20. (see Zech. 14:16)

Matt

Matt,

So now you are off the hook?

Sit back, relax and let Jesus Christ take care of everything.

All you need is faith.


Revelation 17:14
These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”




In Christ

abe

God forbid! God has given us the Holy Spirit, he has regenerated us, and he enables us by His grace to progress in Holiness, to persevere to the end. This is why God called us to himself by the Gospel. Below are some scriptures for your consideration. If you wish to continue this discussion, you can post in the OSAS thread in the Controversy Room.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?...So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." - Romans 6:1-2, 11

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Philippians 2:21-13

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me." - 1 Corinthians 15:10

"Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by g the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen" - Hebrews 13:20-21

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." - Philippians 1:6

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. " - Ephesians 1:4

"For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness." - 1 Thessalonians 4:7

"He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him." - Colossians 1:22

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19

Because both the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected? ;)

Well, that's not how the term is used even once in Scripture. It's about being angry at God and His righteous ones - they are our enemies and enemies of our God. They're not sad about losing their salvation and it's not grief over sin in a repentant state - it's pure anger and hatred because they're losing their prestige, honor and power as beastly, earthy beings. That's the only way I can see it, Able - they are our enemies and enemies of truth and God. Of those kind in Jesus' day he said : "you just didn't want it" - they rejected God's Kingdom and killed his Son because they hated to relinquish what grand positions they had in Satan's kingdom - they were satified to the fullest, he said. I don't think that of the rank and file Witnesses - they are some of the most sincere lovers of God, though misinformed and misled by the GB. And no, they don't want to be misled - they think they truly have all 'The Truth'. But when they find out they're wrong, they will also be "cut to the heart" and grieve their missteps - but it wont be anger aimed at God, it will be sorrow that leads to their repentance.
Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him( both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

I'm not saying just sit back and let whatever happens, happen.
Everyone who isn't trying to justify the wrong-doings of religion are speaking in many ways to those "who have ears to hear". I wouldn't have known these things if I hadn't had that 'niggle' that something wasn't quite right and investigated on my own. Those who knew before us have published their findings for everyone who came later - and we're doing the very same thing. No one will be able to help someone who's stubborn and unwilling to listen - but LOTS of people have that same 'niggle' and LOTS of Witnesses are investigating and searching, just like we did, just like those before us did. In this way I believe many have been used, and are being used by God to promote His will in truth.

I posted this to try to ease your mind about those WT captives of deception. I understand your genuine unease and fear, but have more faith, brother - God takes care of His own and not one will perish who belongs to Him - not one! In the meantime we're doing our part to get the information 'out there', just like others did it for us, and those who come after us will do. God is just and true and not one righteous person will be abandoned - I have such a strong faith in Him to do the perfect thing at the perfect time for everyone who loves Him! If we were all mute - He would make the stones cry out! So please don't fear - trust in Jesus' perfect judgment - it will be carried out "just so".

Peace in Him, Willa :peace:

Willa,

I disagree with your statement above.

The man in the following scripture was not even misled.

He knew the truth.

Matthew 25:24-30
24 “Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest.
28 “‘Therefore TAKE away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be




In Christ

abe

Willa,

God's "saving arm" is NOT so short.

That is the connection I am trying to make here and the sentiment I am hoping will not elude anyone.

Who are the saints if they are not God's "saving arm"?

The saints ARE God's "saving arm"!

Revelation 5
And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


I strongly suspect that saints are indeed members of this forum and that others might visit from time to time.

The Christian Temple has been profaned exactly as prophecied in the scriptures. Righteous people are held captive by an unrighteous deception which undermines the holy covenant that Jesus Christ came to the earth to die for.

From reading content of many of the threads including this one people seem happy to sit back and say God and Jesus Christ are going to come and take care of all that with his "saving arm".

If you are a saint then you represent his "saving arm".

Please carefully think about this scripture:


Daniel 11
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they (THE WEEDS) will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.
32 “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God (THE SAINTS) , they will prevail and act effectively.


The saints (God's saving arm) are not going to sit around and do nothing about the Christian Temple being profaned!

The saints (God's saving arm) will prevail and act effectively!

The saints will not be sitting back and relaxing while the temple has been profaned just saying that God is going to take care of it.

They will act!


Revelation 17:14
These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”

Those called and chosen and faithful with him will prevail and act!

They will actually do something about it with the full understanding that Jesus Christ is supporting them in their prevailing efforts.

Having explained this please understand that I am indeed ministering to the saints. So perhaps you should not take it personally.

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

The slave in the parable just sits back and does nothing, not realizing or caring that his silver talent is an essential part of prevailing in a battle against the weeds (Satan) with Jesus Christ.

So what should the saints now do in order to prevail and act effectively?

I am expecting that saints would actually come to an agreement on what should be done.

and then do it!

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU



In Christ

abe

Willa,

Jesus Christ made it very evident that violence will not win the battle.

Other than egging houses your suggestions above all have value.

I believe your suggestions reach toward the goal of the following scripture:

Ezekiel 22:1-2
And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 2 “And as for you, O son of man, will you judge, will you judge the bloodguilty city and certainly cause her to know all her detestable things?

It may also lead toward emancipating some of those who have been misled by the deceptions.

From my own experences and examining the results of others there has not been a prevailing effect so far.

The WTBTS has grown from 6 million to 7 million, evidence that at the present time righteousness is not prevailing.

There are scriptures which give indication of what the righteous and prevailing actions should be.

I think a saint should spend much time considering the implications of this scripture:


Revelation 17
These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].

In order to act effectively and prevail at the above, knowledge and understanding is first required on the part of the saint so that the enemy is properly identified.

I also think that if the Christian temple has been profaned and will eventually be desolated then it will also have to be rebuilt.

The following scripture seems to list the activities and results that those saints who actually do prevail will eventually achieve:

Isaiah 61
1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones; 3 to assign to those mourning over Zion, to give them a headdress instead of ashes, the oil of exultation instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of the downhearted spirit; and they must be called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for [him] to be beautified. 4 And they must rebuild the long-standing devastated places; they will raise up even the desolated places of former times, and they will certainly make anew the devastated cities, the places desolate for generation after generation.

These are actions and goals that I would expect saints to be collaborating towards acheiving.

What is described in the above scripture will not be an easy task.

It will definitely require collaboration and agreement amongst the saints.

I am comforted that you asked the questions in the post above.

Hopefully there is more that yourself and others might contribute.


In Christ

abe

JWHVACR,

Good question!

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.”

Babylon the Great will eventually fall during the time of the end.

If you are a faithfull saint then please understand that you will play a significant role in its eventual downfall as alluded to here:

Revelation 17:14
These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”

So starting a thread titled: "The Great Babylon" - Who Is She?

Is a very important part of acheiving the goal that saints will collaborate together in acheiving with Jesus Christs full support.

Daniel 11
But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively.



In Christ

abe