So I believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth could extend to righteous people who can see the detestable things.
Well, that's not how the term is used even once in Scripture. It's about being angry at God and His righteous ones - they are our enemies and enemies of our God.
Willa,
I disagree with your statement above.
The man in the following scripture was not even misled.
He knew the truth.
Matthew 25:24-30
24 “Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest.
28 “‘Therefore TAKE away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be
In Christ
abe
I agree with you here...
We have to do something if we "know". This is where being "found faithful" comes in.. We are found faithful because we acted on what we knew.
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14
They do not shrink back, but speak boldly for Christ. We are His eyes, His ears, His mouth, on earth. Vessels of the Lord, whom Christ works through. We speak what we know and tell it out. We invite others to come and join in the fight...
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD--on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels," says the LORD. "They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. Isaiah 66:20
The above verse was a vision I had when I was first called by Christ, in 2005. I saw many peoples walking in a desert like place. There was a long train of camels, horses, pulling wagons, and 1000's of people walking west towards the setting sun. There was a "bright star" above them lighting their way.
Isaiah 11:9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 43:6 "I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' And to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
Isaiah 49:22 Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations And set up My standard to the peoples; And they will bring your sons in their bosom, And your daughters will be carried on their shoulders.
Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there, Touch nothing unclean; Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves, You who carry the vessels of the LORD.
Love,
New Heart
New Heart,
The last chapter of Isaiah that you quoted from often gives me comfort.
Righteous people are being hated and excluded through the use of God's actual name. Isaiah 66:5
There are enemies inside the actual Christian temple who will be "payed back". Isaiah 66:6
Zion gives birth to her sons at the same time.
With labour pains! (It will not be easy especially if the temple has been profaned)
Those who are mourning over the horrific circumstances happening inside the temple (Zion) and being hated and excluded for it are told to expect to rejoice in a near future time.
I believe the sons being born will collaborate in a spiritual battle against the wild beast and it's ten kings. (Satan and his weeds)
Sons being born with labour pains!
It will not be easy.
I personally think there is much more to do.
To win the battle.
In Christ
abe
Good morning dearest willa :hibye::hug: ... interesting thread ... :thinking::nicethread:
I had looked up something on this a few days ago but never had a chance to post it ... :post: too busy painting and such ... still painting but taking a wee break before starting today and sharing my first coffee of the day with you! :drinking:
Here is some of the stuff I found that would seem to go along with your opening thoughts ... :giverose:
Here are some definitions of what the expression 'gnashing of teeth' would seem to convey ...
to show you are angry or annoyed about something bad that you cannot do anything to stop
Fig. a show of anger or dismay. (Biblical: "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.")
Or, “grinding; clenching.â€
"to grind or strike the teeth together, a grinding or grating together of the teeth in rage or anguish."
the verb "gnash" as "to grind the teeth, to rage even to collision with the teeth, to growl." The noun "gnashing" in this way: "striking the teeth together, as in anger, rage or pain. A grinding or striking of the teeth in rage or anguish."
"to grind your teeth together, especially in pain, anger or frustration."
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich defines gnashing as "a sign of violent rage."
It would seem that these defintions would be the kind of 'weeping and gnashing' that is mentioned in Matt. 13:49,50 ...
49 That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things: the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous
50 and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.
The Greek word for 'weeping' or 'wailing' is ...
G2805 κλαυθμοÌÏ‚
klauthmos klowth-mos'
From G2799; lamentation: - wailing, weeping, X wept.
Just because a person may cry doesn't mean that they are crying because they are necessarily 'sorry' for what they did ... but because of frustration at getting 'caught' and/or because of the 'consequences' that their conduct may have brought upon them. Some people cry even when they get angry as would seem to be the case in these definitions as well.
The Greek word for 'gnashing' here is ...
G1030 βÏυγμοÌÏ‚
brugmos broog-mos'
From G1031; a grating (of the teeth): - gnashing.
G1031 βÏÏ…Ìχω
bruchō broo'-kho
A primary verb; to grate the teeth (in pain or rage): - gnash.
For example, here are some instances that would seem to show that this 'weeping and gnashing' are not about 'repentance' but rather anger and rage and perhaps even frustration ...
Acts 7:54 ...
Darby) And hearing these things they were cut to the heart, and gnashed their teeth against him.
(GNB) As the members of the Council listened to Stephen, they became furious and ground their teeth at him in anger.
Job 16:9 ...
(ASV) He hath torn me in his wrath, and persecuted me; He hath gnashed upon me with his teeth: Mine adversary sharpeneth his eyes upon me.
(ESV) He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me.
The Hebrew word for 'gnash' used here has the same meaning as the Greek word for 'gnash' ...
H2786 חרק
châraq khaw-rak
A primitive root; to grate the teeth: - gnash.
So, it would at least appear to me at this point that those who 'weep and gnash their teeth' are doing so out of anger at being cut off and pain at the mental torments of knowing that they have been at what it means for them as wicked ones.
Well, gotta get back to my walls and trim ... will check back with ya later sis ... :giverose:
Luv to everyone ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
PS ... If I have already said something that someone else has sorry for that, but I didn't really have the time to read all the comments ... yet ... :blush:
Dear all.
It is a very interesting thread and the big question, that remains is whether it is physical or symbolic, to understand Matthew 13: versus 40-42.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
It states in versus 40, in the end of this world and in 40 it speaks of all things that offend, and them which do iniquity and at last, cast THEM into a furnice of fire: there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The big question, to the different opinions is who or what and when, takes the cast in the fire place and who is wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they or it has been cast in the fire?
1. Is it the ones who offend and do iniquity physically, that will be cast in the fire and if, how can they be wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they have been cast in a destroying fire?
2. Or is it only the way they feel or symbolic, what is cast in the fire and they must then still be living in some form, otherwise they can not be wailing and gnashing of teeth?
How can a person who is totally destroyed in the fire, be gnashing teeth and who is it that are doing it, if it is only the righteous that survive and are alive, taken in consideration that the scriptures states, In the end... which hasen't arrived yet...The Son of Man... there shall be...., with other words a continuous situation, after the end?
I take for granted, that mostly of you here at the board, know what the Watchtower are teaching in this matter, compared with their speculations and teachings regarding 1914-1919, 1925, 1974, 2034 and generation, in opposition to what Jesus states in Matthew chapter 24.
:airkiss: Thank you for taking the time to post your great comments, sis BR. Yes, it's the conclusion I've come to since all the references point in that direction. :thumbup: Got your painting done yet? :giggle: :artist:
:wave: Hi Talkactive - thank you for your contribution to the discussion, too!
1. Is it the ones who offend and do iniquity physically, that will be cast in the fire and if, how can they be wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they have been cast in a destroying fire?
2. Or is it only the way they feel or symbolic, what is cast in the fire and they must then still be living in some form, otherwise they can not be wailing and gnashing of teeth?
How can a person who is totally destroyed in the fire, be gnashing teeth and who is it that are doing it, if it is only the righteous that survive and are alive, taken in consideration that the scriptures states, In the end... which hasen't arrived yet...The Son of Man... there shall be...., with other words a continuous situation, after the end?
My reasoning on your questions ---
I don't think it's symbolic wording - Jesus had gone from the symbolic parable of the wheat and weeds in verses 24-30 to the reality of the future event when he explained to his disciples what the parable meant in verses 36-43. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
He'd said in verse 41 that not only the things(sins) which cause stumbling will be removed upon his return, but also the ones doing lawlessness(unreconciled sinners). I would assume the commotion of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" would happen before they're completely destroyed in the furnace of fire, not afterwards - so they would yet be alive and conscious of their adverse, but just, judgment.
With everything and everyone unrighteous removed, verse 43 continues - Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
So the righteous faithful couldn't be the ones who would be angrily "gnashing their teeth" - with all sin and sinners gone, they'll be overjoyed to find themselves in God's peaceful Kingdom!
You're right - Jesus said this will happen "at the end of the age"(Matt. 13:48-50 also), but I don't know what you mean by "continuous situation"? Could you explain that more, please? Thanks!
Willa :peace:
Dear all.
It is a very interesting thread and the big question, that remains is whether it is physical or symbolic, to understand Matthew 13: versus 40-42.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
It states in versus 40, in the end of this world and in 40 it speaks of all things that offend, and them which do iniquity and at last, cast THEM into a furnice of fire: there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The big question, to the different opinions is who or what and when, takes the cast in the fire place and who is wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they or it has been cast in the fire?
TalkActive,
Thats a good question.
There are many illustrations that Jesus Christ gives in Matthew Ch13 and then he asks the question; "did you get the sense of these things?".
The illustrations all lean toward a gathering and separation.
This leads me to what he said later on in Matthew:
Matthew 24:39
and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
Once again there are two situations described here.
Taken along or abandoned.
Question is, taken along to where?
and
Abandoned to what?
Will the people abandoned know they have been abandoned?
If they do its a good reason to weep and gnash teeth.
In Christ
abe
Dear Willa
Thank you for your comments and I will hereby try to explain what I ment by a " Continuous situation ".
You're right - Jesus said this will happen "at the end of the age"(Matt. 13:48-50 also), but I don't know what you mean by "continuous situation"? Could you explain that more, please? Thanks!
If we presume it is a real situation and not symbolic, where physical persons will be cast into a real or symbolic furnace of fire, like the use of Gehenna, where we as humans for sure know that a person will die within a very short time frame, there shall be somebody who are wailing and gnashing of teeth in accordance to the contents of versus 42.
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If versus 42 has been written this way: There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth ( When they are outside ) and then they shall be cast in the furnice of fire, ( where they will die ) I would have been able to follow you.
So the question remains: Who will it be, that are wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they have been cast in the fire and are dead?
Dear Willa
If we presume it is a real situation and not symbolic, where physical persons will be cast into a real or symbolic furnace of fire, like the use of Gehenna, where we as humans for sure know that a person will die within a very short time frame, there shall be somebody who are wailing and gnashing of teeth in accordance to the contents of versus 42.
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If versus 42 has been written this way: There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth ( When they are outside ) and then they shall be cast in the furnice of fire, ( where they will die ) I would have been able to follow you.
So the question remains: Who will it be, that are wailing and gnashing of teeth, after they have been cast in the fire and are dead?
OK... I still maintain that a person is not done away with by God's judgment unless he knows his judgment - it seems, to me, to go against God's sense of justice if it were just "poof! you're gone!". There's nothing in that verse that says a person would be immediately dead, so that's conjecture.
Abe said the same thing, in other words: Will the people abandoned know they have been abandoned? If they do its a good reason to weep and gnash teeth.
Also - I've been giving some thought to Jesus' words about punishment by strokes - many or few. So perhaps the 'furnace of fire' is not immediate death, but a place of punishment and/or refinement? But that's another topic!
As I wrote earlier - with everything and everyone unrighteous removed, verse 43 continues - Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
If we stop and think about that a minute - it couldn't be the righteous ones crying over those punished, if they're in the Kingdom where - "death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."(Rev 21:4)
The Greek text says in vs. 42 - and - they will throw - them - into - the - furnace - of the - fire; - there - will be - the - weeping - and - the - gnashing - of the - teeth. So I'm understanding it as "there", in the furnace, is where the weeping and teeth gnashing will be happening. If it was going on outside the furnace, as you suggested, then the wording would reveal that, as in - "and then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But it doesn't say it that way because "there" is a noun, a place, rather than an adverb describing "will be"... I could always be wrong, 'cause I have been LOTS... but it certainly doesn't say they will be dead immediately.
Really, this dissection of words doesn't give us much that's useful. These parables were, as Abe said, about a separation between the Godly and ungodly - warnings. And it seems to me that one of Jesus' most important points in them all is - be ready TODAY, not tomorrow or next week - don't put off doing the righteous things we know we should be doing - and don't just continue in sin and think we can fix it 'later'. Because we don't know the day he'll return and we have to be ready, lamps full of the oil of faith. That's what I get out of the "Live the Kingdom Now!" signature script of our brother Beau.:cheekkiss: That makes complete sense to me.... but who am I? lol.
:peace:
OK... I still maintain that a person is not done away with by God's judgment unless he knows his judgment - it seems, to me, to go against God's sense of justice if it were just "poof! you're gone!". There's nothing in that verse that says a person would be immediately dead, so that's conjecture.
Abe said the same thing, in other words: Will the people abandoned know they have been abandoned? If they do its a good reason to weep and gnash teeth.
Also - I've been giving some thought to Jesus' words about punishment by strokes - many or few. So perhaps the 'furnace of fire' is not immediate death, but a place of punishment and/or refinement? But that's another topic!
As I wrote earlier - with everything and everyone unrighteous removed, verse 43 continues - Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
If we stop and think about that a minute - it couldn't be the righteous ones crying over those punished, if they're in the Kingdom where - "death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."(Rev 21:4)
The Greek text says in vs. 42 - and - they will throw - them - into - the - furnace - of the - fire; - there - will be - the - weeping - and - the - gnashing - of the - teeth. So I'm understanding it as "there", in the furnace, is where the weeping and teeth gnashing will be happening. If it was going on outside the furnace, as you suggested, then the wording would reveal that, as in - "and then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But it doesn't say it that way because "there" is a noun, a place, rather than an adverb describing "will be"... I could always be wrong, 'cause I have been LOTS... but it certainly doesn't say they will be dead immediately.
Really, this dissection of words doesn't give us much that's useful. These parables were, as Abe said, about a separation between the Godly and ungodly - warnings. And it seems to me that one of Jesus' most important points in them all is - be ready TODAY, not tomorrow or next week - don't put off doing the righteous things we know we should be doing - and don't just continue in sin and think we can fix it 'later'. Because we don't know the day he'll return and we have to be ready, lamps full of the oil of faith. That's what I get out of the "Live the Kingdom Now!" signature script of our brother Beau.:cheekkiss: That makes complete sense to me.... but who am I? lol.
:peace:
Will you please explain for me, what you believe will happen with those who will end up in Gehenna?
Is there is a difference in status between those who will end up in Gehenna and those who will be cast in a furnace of fire. Will they also be living in some form or way, since you mentioned Jehovah doesn't make it to a "poof! you're gone!"?
Furthermore how can the righteous shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father, if the others are still on earth or in heaven, whatever we believe in?
Where do you think or believe the unrightious will be living, so they will be unable to destroy the rightious from shining like the sun?
I do not like to make it a discussion about feelings, but the question has taken a big part of my thinking in the past, compared with the teaching from The Watchtower and opposite what e.g. the Catholic Church teach, but mostly what do Jesus really like to say to us?
As you and Abe said, in which I fully agree with both of you, it is a question of separation between the righteous and the unrighteous, god and evil, like Moses stated on the behalf of Jehovah, "I have shown you life and death, that you may choose the life to live."
Paul he said a very interesting thing, that nobody have ever come back, but only one, Jesus Christ, so how do we really know, it can only be speculations.
Agree, we are nothing but as the iron sharpens the iron, so it does with the face of men and women. ( The latest, with or without beard, in respect of and in the name of equality.)
Ps. sorry I can't make the Icons due to some settings in the program or system.
TalkActive,
I think this old testament scripture sheds some more light on the world situation as the end approaches and the righteous and wicked are separated:
Isaiah 24:17-25:8
Dread and the hollow and the trap are upon you, you inhabitant of the land. 18 And it must occur that anyone fleeing from the sound of the dreaded thing will fall into the hollow, and anyone coming up from inside the hollow will be caught in the trap. For the very floodgates on high will actually be opened, and the foundations of the land will rock. 19 The land has absolutely burst apart, the land has absolutely been shaken up, the land has absolutely been sent staggering. 20 The land absolutely moves unsteadily like a drunken man, and it has swayed to and fro like a lookout hut. And its transgression has become heavy upon it, and it must fall, so that it will not rise up again.
21 And it must occur in that day that Jehovah will turn his attention upon the army of the height in the height, and upon the kings of the ground upon the ground. 22 And they will certainly be gathered with a gathering as of prisoners into the pit, and be shut up in the dungeon; and after an abundance of days they will be given attention. 23 And the full moon has become abashed, and the glowing [sun] has become ashamed, for Jehovah of armies has become king in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and in front of his elderly men with glory.
25 O Jehovah, you are my God. I exalt you, I laud your name, for you have done wonderful things, counsels from early times, in faithfulness, in trustworthiness. 2 For you have made a city a pile of stones, a fortified town a crumbling ruin, a dwelling tower of strangers to be no city, which will not be rebuilt even to time indefinite. 3 That is why those who are a strong people will glorify you; the town of the tyrannical nations, they will fear you. 4 For you have become a stronghold to the lowly one, a stronghold to the poor one in the distress that he has, a refuge from the rainstorm, a shade from the heat, when the blast of the tyrannical ones is like a rainstorm against a wall. 5 Like the heat in a waterless country, the noise of strangers you subdue, the heat with the shadow of a cloud. The melody itself of the tyrannical ones becomes suppressed.
6 And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept on] the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept on] the dregs, filtered. 7 And in this mountain he will certainly swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. 8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it]
In Christ
abe
Will you please explain for me, what you believe will happen with those who will end up in Gehenna?
Is there is a difference in status between those who will end up in Gehenna and those who will be cast in a furnace of fire. Will they also be living in some form or way, since you mentioned Jehovah doesn't make it to a "poof! you're gone!"?
Furthermore how can the righteous shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father, if the others are still on earth or in heaven, whatever we believe in?
Where do you think or believe the unrightious will be living, so they will be unable to destroy the rightious from shining like the sun?
! do not like to make it a discussion about feelings, but the question has taken a big part of my thinking in the past, compared with the teaching from The Watchtower and opposite what e.g. the Catholic Church teach, but mostly what do Jesus really like to say to us?
Paul he said a very interesting thing, that nobody have ever come back, but only one, Jesus Christ, so how do we really know, it can only be speculations.
You are so very right - there's so much we don't know, having never died and come back to life to tell of it. It's true - we speculate. All I know is --- if God and Jesus have determined a person may live or if they must die - that's the way it will be and I trust that it will be a completely just and fair judgment. I know God has His 'good children' in mind when He says He'll abolish all badness. If He knows some can be 'refined' and not destroyed - that's His perfect judgment - and I won't question it, even in my own case.
About the "poof!" thing - I was only saying that we will know what our judgment will be before we're either punished or rewarded - we will know why. I didn't mean that the weeds thrown in the furnace won't die and will just be living somewhere else. I don't believe in 'hell' where one is tortured forever. See, I was just saying that before they die, they'll consciously know they've been rejected and the reason why and they'll be angry and unrepentant, hense the raging reaction. God knows who those weeds are, I don't. I think I know some of the 'wheat' tho'. :grouphug:
As for status - I really don't believe that has been given to anyone yet... though there are lots of people out there trying to convince the rest of us that they've already been appointed as judge or king over everyone else. I don't agree with the WT's 144,000 as a ruling 'John class' over 'other sheep' - I think we're all either humble sheep or prideful goats. That's just my opinion, I've got a lot of 'em - speculative, of course, lol...
:peace:
TalkActive,
I think this old testament scripture sheds some more light on the world situation as the end approaches and the righteous and wicked are separated:
In Christ
abe
Dear Abe
I think I understand your point with the verse you refer to in the Old Testament, that they are still alive and waiting for the final judgement.
It is quite clear, that it is a question of seperation, between those who will be approved and those who will be disapproved, at that moment it takes place, but do you think like Willa, that those persons described in Matthew 8:42 will be destroyed later on and will that be walid for the sons of the Kingdom too, as described in Matthew chapter 8 versus 11 especially versus 12, which is or must be the reason for they are can, or will be able to gnashing teeth?:
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
In above versus, it is quite obviously that they still will be alive in the "outer darkness" since they will be able to gnash teeth, opposite those described in Matthew chapter 13 versus 42, that will be cast in the fire.
I take the liberty to make a clear seperation between outer darknes and a place of fire. Maybe I'm wrong?
The question is then, will the persons that will be cast in a furnace of fire, be cleaned and get a chance to be "living" again, like gold or will there be an indefinite end for them, which isn't quite clear for me, taken in consideration when the Scriptures talks about fire, directly or indirectly, which is used both in connection with a total destruktion and a cleaning process.
I have maked a little reserch and unfortunately haven't found much material or comments to especially Matthew chapter 8 versus 42, others that a very little and of course material viewed with doctrinal eyes, which I find useless.
It is therefore my sincerely hope that somebody can help with a good explanation and I like to say that I appreciate very much all thoughts and comments from all of you here.
So the question remains: Why can persons cast in a fornace of fire, be able to gnashing teeth, after they have been put into the fire, opposite the sons of The Kingdom which are outside, in the outer darkness and is there a difference with / in their status, in question of changing their minds or find mercy in front of the eyes of God and His Judge, Jesus Christ?
You are so very right - there's so much we don't know, having never died and come back to life to tell of it. It's true - we speculate. All I know is --- if God and Jesus have determined a person may live or if they must die - that's the way it will be and I trust that it will be a completely just and fair judgment. I know God has His 'good children' in mind when He says He'll abolish all badness. If He knows some can be 'refined' and not destroyed - that's His perfect judgment - and I won't question it, even in my own case.
About the "poof!" thing - I was only saying that we will know what our judgment will be before we're either punished or rewarded - we will know why. I didn't mean that the weeds thrown in the furnace won't die and will just be living somewhere else. I don't believe in 'hell' where one is tortured forever. See, I was just saying that before they die, they'll consciously know they've been rejected and the reason why and they'll be angry and unrepentant, hense the raging reaction. God knows who those weeds are, I don't. I think I know some of the 'wheat' tho'. :grouphug:
As for status - I really don't believe that has been given to anyone yet... though there are lots of people out there trying to convince the rest of us that they've already been appointed as judge or king over everyone else. I don't agree with the WT's 144,000 as a ruling 'John class' over 'other sheep' - I think we're all either humble sheep or prideful goats. That's just my opinion, I've got a lot of 'em - speculative, of course, lol...
:peace:
Dear Willa
I agree with you and I like all of your and the others comments too, even that mostly of what we think, believe and express is based at speculations, or let me say it in the right way, our personal Faith and Hope.
It is difficult to understand from a loving angle that there will be a Hell, but on the other side I can have a certain respect for the ones who believe in a Hell, seen in the light of the different meanings and results of fire in the Scriptures, instead of one as being placed in "Gehenna".
I don't really know but the Catholic Church teach that there are different levels in "Inferno", which among them is "Limbo" and "Procatorium" etc. from where there is a possibility to be resurrected, when you have "paid" for your sins, unless a person has been so evil, that he/she will be put directly in the hottest place of fire for ever. :
Paul, on the other hand talks e.g about, that there are many heavens, are there many other "fire" places than and in Gehenna? The Scriptures talks about different forms of fire and the result hereof.
For my own part, I believe also like you, that the 144.000 is symbolic, since there have never been 12 tribes in Israel. Furthermore I believe that it is men with a great portion of delusions that have created different classes, who will gain salvation, where it will be interesting to see, what kind of New light the men behind The Watchtower Society will come with, when all, with a heavently hope are dead, like the 1914 generation, where they have been forced, by the history, to change for the sixth time.
Among other places, I have been looking at Jesus words in Matthew chapter 8 Versus 11, that the sons of the Kingdom will be cast out in the outer darkness and "replaced" since there will be others who will be invited into the Kingdom. Thats maybe why the Governing Body are anchious to count down every year the memorial takes place :grin
In question of above, I'm sorry to say that it has come up in my mind, that the sons of the Kingdom, could be some or all members of the Governing Body, through the history and other religious leaders, which have placed themselves at Moses chair and play masters over Gods heritage, by sending spiritual persons, brothers, sisters and their children into a premature death, directly or indirectly, by their doctrines of men, together with and based at sanctions and treats. They are, in accordance to the Scriptures, carrying at a huge bloodguilt.
My personal hope, like many others, is to be able to se and understand Jehovah’s mercy, love, righteousness and revenge in force, when I look at all the evilness that has and are going on in this world, which could have been a paradise if we would and have been able to follow the 2 commandments Jesus he gave us:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Everything else is totally unnecessary, but religious leaders in the whole world history have tried to "pat pend" the truth and put themselves in as representatives of God or Jesus Christ. The result has been disasters and premature death for millions in the whole history of mankind, strictly in opposition to what comes forth in 1.of Peter chapter 5 verse 3 and 1 of Corinthians chapter 1 verse 24:
3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
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Ps. I discussed Heaven and Hell with one of my friends. His response arrived immediately, he wouldn't go for Heaven. Why, there is only holy old Aunts knitting hands and explained, that he preferre to go for Hell instead, because he likes to meet all his mates again and have fun. :thinking:
Another friend said: If this is the real life, I do not fear the death or Hell. :cry:
I love the scripture!
Isn't there much sorrow with wisdom? I see it with every wrinkle:D Why is it wise for us to seek wisdom when it hurts as well as comforts? Understanding does create comfort, aye?
I just peeked in and wanted to say hi and welcome to the forum, Talkative.
I'm still floating the library for internet time, so my thread reads are waaaaay behind.
Enjoy your visits:love:
Sis Love, Debbie
Among other places, I have been looking at Jesus words in Matthew chapter 8 Versus 11, that the sons of the Kingdom will be cast out in the outer darkness and "replaced" since there will be others who will be invited into the Kingdom. Thats maybe why the Governing Body are anchious to count down every year the memorial takes place :grin
In question of above, I'm sorry to say that it has come up in my mind, that the sons of the Kingdom, could be some or all members of the Governing Body, through the history and other religious leaders, which have placed themselves at Moses chair and play masters over Gods heritage, by sending spiritual persons, brothers, sisters and their children into a premature death, directly or indirectly, by their doctrines of men, together with and based at sanctions and treats. They are, in accordance to the Scriptures, carrying at a huge bloodguilt.
Talkactive,
Yep, Matthew 8:11 is an eye opener! :shocked:
After saying something like that you would think the New Testament might elaborate some more on Jesus Christ's statement.
I personally believe the Book of Revelation addresses this matter.
When I realized that the "kings of the earth" mentioned thoughout the Book of Revelation were likely the same "sons of the kingdom" that Jesus Christ mentioned in Matthew 8:11 then Revelation took on an entirely different and far more meaningfull message than what I had previously been taught by the Watchtower Society and any other self proclaimed or peer reviewed spiritual academics.
Christianity is in for a big surprise!
I reached the same conclusion as you have.
Some or all of those sons of the kingdom are in fact the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and (also the other partakers, the so called FDS.)
I made some videos on the Book of Revelation on Google video which I invite you to watch.
here is a link:
Part 1
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1...097084054#
Part 2
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-...037457374#
Part 3
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-...008040581#
In Christ
abe