Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Is the Bible the Word of God? Does it claim to be the Word of God? Well, let's see....
:read:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV)

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Peter 1:19-21 ESV)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.
(Hebrews 13:7 ESV)

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
(Luke 8:11 ESV) The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. (Mark 4:14-15 ESV)

he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
(Matthew 15:6 ESV)

thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
(Mark 7:13 ESV)

since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
(1 Peter 1:23 ESV)

I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
(1 John 2:14 ESV)

This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
(Acts 19:10 ESV)

But he answered them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it."
(Luke 8:21 ESV)

But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
(Luke 11:28 ESV)

If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken--
(John 10:35 ESV)

And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
(Acts 4:31 ESV)

And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.
(Acts 6:2 ESV)

When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them.
(Acts 13:5 ESV)

And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
(Acts 13:46 ESV)

And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
(Acts 18:11 ESV)

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
(1 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV)

For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
(1 Timothy 4:4-5 ESV)

This is just a taste of the verses, there are over 250 times the phrase "The word of the Lord" appeasrs just in the OLD TESTAMENT!

The clear evidence is that yes, the Bible does claim to be the Word of God, and it is. :readthis: How are we to react to this?

The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
(Psalms 19:7-11 ESV)

Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day. Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies, for it is ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers, for your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged, for I keep your precepts. I hold back my feet from every evil way, in order to keep your word. I do not turn aside from your rules, for you have taught me. How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.
(Psalms 119:97-104 ESV)

:thumbup:

PS> Just because we have a Bible, doesn't mean we can keep writing. (Either literally, or by extra biblical revelation.)

All Scripture is inspired of God yes but what Scripture was Paul referring to here? OT and NT? Couldnt be the New Testament because it was still being written.

Also, could not the phrase "word of God" refer to Jesus? See John 1:1.

Absolutely John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God. But so is the bible. You can distinguish between the two depending on context. The key is the Bible is God's written Word.

As for NT being scripture:

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV)

Here Peter clearly classify "all of his [Paul's] letters" with "the other scriptures". This is an indication that early in the History of the church all of Paul's letters were considered to be God's written words in the same sense as the Old Testament.

For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
(1 Timothy 5:18 ESV)

The first quotation is from Deut. 25:4, but the second occurs nowhere in the OT. It is rather a quotation from Luke 10:7. Paul here quote Jesus' words as found in Luke's gospel and calls them "scripture".

There are more arguments that could be made from Paul's words like that of 1 Thessalonians 2:13 quoted above, but these should be sufficient.

Mavos

A sincere question, why is the Bible (collection of books) that you hold in your hand the complete Word of God? Did God inspire a complete list? If so to who and when?

Secondly, since you are putting your faith entirely in the Bible, what reference can you provide to support your claim that there was no further inspired revelation to spirit anointed ones apart from what is found in its pages. Did the Holy Spirit lose his voice? I am mindful of something Paul wrote about following mute idols.

-Anthony

The Westminster Confession of Faith, written by the Puritans, contains a sufficient answer, worded far better then I ever could hope to word it.

"The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author of it: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to a high and reverent esteem for the Holy Scripture. The heavenly character of its content, the efficacy of its doctrine, the majesty of its style, the agreement of all its parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full disclosure it makes of the only way of man's salvation, its many other incomparable excellencies, and its entire perfection, are arguments by which it gives abundant evidence that it is the Word of God. Nevertheless, our full persuasion and assurance of its infallible truth and divine authority is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts." Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 1 Sections 4 and 5.

The historic Christian belief is that the Holy Spirit, who controlled the writing of the individual books, also controlled their selection and collection. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament. Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture. Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches. Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). You also have the Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170) with 24 books. (A reason why some of the earlier guys didn't have more books was because they didn't know of them, or perhaps knew of them, but didn't have access to them Times were hard under Roman persecution.)

One thing must be emphatically stated. The New Testament did not become God's written Word because they were formally included in a canonical list. On the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognizing their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first councils to classify the canonical books were in 393 and 397. However, what these council's did was not impose something new upon the Christian communities, but to codify what was already the general practice of those communities. They verified and made official what the church has universally affirmed, that the sixty-six books in our Bibles are the only true Scripture inspired by God. The canon is complete.

It was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible. It was simply a matter of God’s imparting to His followers what He had already decided. The human process of collecting the books of the Bible was flawed, but God, in His sovereignty, and despite our ignorance and stubbornness, brought the early church to the recognition of the books He had inspired.

Here are some books you may be interested in looking up if you are sincere in finding out the answer.

The Canon and Manuscripts

* Bruce, F.F. The Canon of Scripture
* Connolly, W. Kenneth. The Indestructible Book
* Bruce, F.F. The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?
* Ridderbos, Herman. The Authority of the New Testament Scriptures
* Blomberg, Craig L. The Historical Reliability of the Gospels
* Metzger, Bruce M. and Bart D. Ehrman. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration

The Divine Inspiration of Scripture

* Packer, J.I. God Has Spoken: Revelation and the Bible
* Geisler, Norman. Inerrancy
* Wenham, John. Christ and the Bible

Let me be clear, there is come sense in which a believer can get "revelation" or better worded "illumination".

What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
(1 Corinthians 14:26 ESV)

But what does Paul and the rest of scripture say about divine revelations from the Holy Spirit?

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
(1 Corinthians 14:29-32 ESV)

Notice we are to judge or weigh the "revelation". Scripture is put in authority above divine revelations or illumination. Why?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(1 John 4:1 ESV)

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15 ESV)

It is because of the presence of Satan, false prophets, and demons, that is one reason why God provided a written word to help us to judge. Far from being equally inspired, these revelations are under the authority of scripture. Perhaps a better term may be illumination, because the Holy Spirit will speak to us through scripture, applying it to our lives, and bringing to our remembrance things we're heard Christ say in and through scripture. (John 14:26; 15:13)

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
(Acts 17:11 ESV)

What I reject, however, is divine revelation that is on par with, or above, scripture.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Revelation 22:18-19 ESV)

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
(Galatians 1:8-9 ESV)

Once again, from he Westminster Confession, chapter 1, section 6 and 10, sums this up nicely.

"The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: to which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word....The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture."

I think it is entirely possible that one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit which ended in the first century was to authenticate the Apostles and Prophets by miracles and special gifts in order to confirm his message. This may be what is referred to in the following passages:

The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.
(2 Corinthians 12:12 ESV)

For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
(Hebrews 2:2-4 ESV, See also Acts 2:43; 4:33; 5:12-16; 14:3; 19:11)

However, this is a point I am willing to change my mind on, but even if the miraculous gifts and ministry of the Spirit continued, that would not change my position above. What Jesus says about the Holy Spirit and what it does in John 16:4-15 is very much the work of the Holy Spirit today.

Matt