Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I have a question SOJ,

what is the purpose in becoming baptised?

IS it just a symbol?
Does it actually wash our sins away?
IS it a covenant?

And finally where in the scriptures does it say we need to ask men for the priviledge and or the right to become baptised?

Hi abe! after some thought, i am kinda, sorta, understanding your logic on baptism. You are viewing it as a contract. If it is a contract, then I see it this way.
1 There are two parties, the baptisee, and God the Father.
2 The baptisee is contracting for a clean conscience (to be forgiven).
3 The Father agrees to forgive, with the stipulation that the baptisee must have faith in the name (power of) of the Fathers son, Jesus.
4 The baptisee agrees (in his heart or verbally in prayer) to be baptised in the name of the Son.
The contract now is in force and sealed by immersion

There are no further demands or stipulations placed on the baptisee, nothing he has to say, do, or join. 1 Jn3:21

Now, the contract for a New Covenant is another matter.

Good thoughts comming from your neck of the woods, TD

e-magine,

The new covenant is mentioned in Hebrews 10 where the Holy spirit reminds the Apostle Paul about the new covenant promised in the Old Testament and written about by Jeremiah (in red).

Where does it tie this in with baptism? See the green text.


Hebrews 10
11 Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely. 12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually. 15 Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: 16 “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” 17 [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised.



In Christ

abe

abe, Im beginning to see where you're coming from. I do see the connection between Heb 10 and 1 jn 3:21. But I still don't see why that means that the baptism should be in the name of the Father, Son, and HS.

The latest 2nd baptismal question should ring out to us as idol worship if our heart is in the right place. When we see it , it should be repulsive to us, and remind us of how we have been deceived and have fallen badly. This should make us repent and fall on our knees to God's face and ask for forgiveness.

Are we like unbelieving Israel? Will we make choice of a God for ourselves, after our own likeness as they have done in their own baptismal vows after earthly organizations?

This is considered a high form of idolatry to our creator, and also prohibited by Him. This is the reason they have lost His blessing.

The fallen ones trick mankind ...it is a war for the hearts of man, to follow the same wrong path that they chose, so that we will also fall just like them,

They are hoping and rooting that we choose to make a god like unto ourselves, lower and elementary, with earthly senses for the purpose of stopping the Holy Spirit from doing the great work within the hearts of people... so that they may stop that person from obtaining the firey baptism..the promised helper to lead us into the "Faithful and True"... TRUTH..what has been hidden from them, because this Truth is not from anything on this earth, and impossible to receive unless you know the new song....and the only way to know the new song is by repentance, you must change your ways.. turn around, wipe it out..die..and be willing to repent and start over with a clean slate...and be willing to let God teach you.

Isaiah 25:1

1.O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; Thy counsels of old are Faithfulness and Truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=TqJQPmut...re=related


For God will not bear or suffer any one whom he has placed into His Kingdom to have any other God but Himself. He is a very jealous God, who wants complete subjection to Him alone and to find rest in Him and abide with Him in subjection to the will , not living to their own senses of reason and their own will, but to have faith without doubting in His promises, and to worship Him this way with a fear of displeasing Him because we love Him, and fear hurting Him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=UlXp4PBi...re=related

When Antipas was advised:
"Antipas, the whole world is against you!",
Antipas rupetedly replied:
"Then I am against the whole world!"

Revelation 2 :13


I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is;
and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith
even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one,
who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Antipas, had unshakable faith, even though all were against him, and so do all Christ followers who will not bow to men and their religions."The god's that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth, for the shepherds have behaved unreasoningly, and they have not looked to me Jehovah alone!! They have not acted with insight, and all my people they have scattered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=VOkaVV-w...re=related
In Christ,
New Heart

Going beneath the water symbolizes that you have died to your former life course. Being raised up out of the water indicates that you are now alive to do the will of God. Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization. Your dedication and baptism are the beginning of a very close friendship with God—an intimate relationship with him.—Psalm 25:14.

Men don't have a right or decide for anyone. But,certainly the elders want to review some of the Bible’s basic teachings.

good morning Bro SoJ1
Your answer to Td is not complete. You didn't answer;
"does it wash our sins away"?
"is it a covenant?"
"And finally where in the scriptures does it say we need to ask men for the privilege and or the right to become baptised?"

my answer to the 3rd question:
The reason the elders, and the GB want to ask questions is because they view the baptism as someone joining their organization. They have every right to ask those questions because thats what the WT/JW baptism is.
However, thats not the baptism of the Bible. They don't baptise "in the name of Jesus". The baptiser does not say to the baptisee, "I baptise you in the name of Jesus".

Hi SOJ,

Thanks for the reply I think you may have missed some things with your reply. But so far how do you think your reply measures up to these words written ?

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt3: 11"As for me, (W)I baptize you [a]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; (X)He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12"His (Y)winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will (Z)gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the (AA)chaff with (AB)unquenchable fire."
The Baptism of Jesus
13(AC)Then Jesus arrived (AD)from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us (AE)to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and (AF)he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,


Seems to me baptism is a symbol of repentance.

Is it not easier to just say as has already been said?
when we recognize our course is wrong is it not easier to kiss the son in recognition of his authority and repent?

Was our Lord Dedicated to his father before he was baptised?
I dare say he was Fully and completely dedicated.
Do you think this was the begining or the ending of his fiendship /Sonship?

Can we not be dedicated to love one another and yet sin?
If I sin against you what are the only words that we utter to gain our freind, family, spouse back?

are they not simply "will your please forgive me"
Going under the water is the exact same thing is it not?
It seems to me that it is not the begining nor the end of our relationship with our heavenly father.
Just as we cannot ask forgiveness of people we do not know can we?
We ask forgiveness when "WE" recognize that we have treated those that we already have come to know to some degree in a poor manner or what the bible would call "sin"

Do you agree or disagree on this brother?

Re: "Seems to me baptism is a symbol of repentance."

Or does baptism more signify than symbolize? Might one get used to using an inappropriate word because others (Watchtower Organization) do?

Being picky....grin.

.02,

gogh

I would say our life course after baptism signify's repentance.

but I understand words diff as we all do, but you are correct also as the def shows

signify [ˈsɪgnɪˌfaɪ]
vb -fies, -fying, -fied (when tr, may take a clause as object)
1. (tr) to indicate, show, or suggest
2. (tr) to imply or portend the clouds signified the coming storm
3. (tr) to stand as a symbol, sign, etc. (for)
4. (intr) Informal to be significant or important

"sybmol" is part of the def

Hello.

My final thoughts.

Water baptism is a requirement for all who want to have a relationship with the Almighty God,Jehovah. Baptism publicly indicates one desire to serve God. It shows that one is delighted to do Jehovah’s will. (Psalm 40:7, 8) That is why Witness Baptismal candidates answer the two questions about their baptism.They are answering to show publicly that their choice to be baptized is one they are making of their own free will and that they understand what they are doing.
Christians want to be “filled with the accurate knowledge of [God’s] will.” (Colossians 1:9)

What it means to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and holy spirit is explained very clearly in the talk that proceeds their being asked those questions. They also understand that thier baptism symbolizes dying to one’s former way of life and becoming alive to do God’s will.—1 Peter 4:2.

So JW'S have a solid scriptual pattern to baptize those who are willing to make the step. This is why thousands each year come foward and make this decision. 276,233 this past service year.

Jehovah's Witnesses will continue what Jesus told his followers: “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them.” (Matthew 28:19)

Hi SoJ bro!
I have been to well over 100 baptism talks and I have never heard them say, "I baptise you in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit".
You haven't answered my inquiry. Why is it OK for you to be here when so many JWs would like to be on this chat room to discuss bible topics, but are afraid they might be caught and don't want to disobey the GB? We're glad you're here though!

Totaldismay,

Interesting post!

If baptism is for repentance and forgiveness of sins then who is it that we sinned against?

Did we sin against Jesus Christ, the son?

or

Did we sin against Jehovah, the father?


If Jesus Christ came to the earth that we might have our sins forgiven then are they sins against Jesus Christ or sins against Jehovah?

When Jesus Christ forgives a person their sins, who is it they sinned against?


In Christ

abe

I agree anja! I think SoJ may work at Bethel. He thinks he is above the rules. What do you say SoJ?