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Came accross this article, thought I'd share. It's all the answer one ever needs.
The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
A student bravely replied yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes, sir," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer
The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does".
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil.
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The Sage!

If God did not want evil to exist, then why does it exist?

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If God did not want evil to exist, then why does it exist?
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Mavos!

An answer to your comment was given to the same question on Bible Discussion.com By Jorman!

Maybe by pondering how God created darkness we can see how evil was created?
What I'm aiming at is that, darkness is created by the allowance of a place wherein no light dwells.
And, in the same way, evil is an thing allowed to exist in a certain place by the removal of good.
God said , "Let there be light."

I think this statement is underestimated as to what it, as a law, actually demands.
God said to let there be light where there was no light. For, Genesis chapter one, verse two, describes the situation such that, down here in the deepest well of existence, Darkness sat with it's uselessly appropriate companions, Void and Formless.
Now, we know there was light already in the heaven God created because, God dwells in unapproachable light and God dwells in heaven.
So, why did God choose to begin a good work by gathering his created beings around him to witness what he planned to bring forth out of darkness.
That is, Why did God choose to bring the light out of the darkness?
Why did God command that all things "Let there be light"?
Why did God ever ALLOW the existence of a place of darkness?
If physical things are shadows of things that are of a eternal nature, then what does the metaphor of "the deep darkness" of Bible verse number two mean?

For me the teaching is clear and prescient.
In verse one God created the heaven and the earth.
And in verse two God reveals, that, and where, he hid the earth.

The true darkness is inside an unbelieving heart that rejects the word of God.
God uses physical darkness to portray evil. (NIGHT)
"Let there be light"...is an inescapable commandment the fulfillment of which requires that there come the DAY wherein, no darkness is found to dwell anywhere, and in which, only the light of God shines for ever and ever.

My opinion is that God created darkness in verse one and relegated it to the deep well wherein the earth sat alone because, he knew that soon evil would be found to have lurked in the heart of many of the free willed creatures who secretly harbored the darkness of evil in their hearts in accordance with the doctrine of Lucifer.

Evil is allowed for various appropriate reasons, to teach...
1. What it is.
2. Where it originated.
3. Why it originated.
4. Why it spread.
5. Why it is not eternal.

Evil only exists to teach why it will not exist.
The end results in the establishment of the God conceived HEAVEN wherein he will dwell with all his creatures.

The Sage!

I think the answer is a bit simpler than that. Evil exists because God wanted it to exist. Indeed nothing would exist if God did not want it to. The question is not "Why does evil exist", but "Why did God want evil to exist". One reason God wanted evil to exist is to show us the full range of his Character. If there was no evil, how would we know that God is Good? If there were no evil how would we know that God is Just and will punish sin? If there were no evil how would we know that God is love, making his enemies his friends through the Blood of Christ?

I heard it once described this way: It is like a jeweler, who is trying to sell a man a diamond for his engagement ring. The jeweler takes the diamond, and puts it on a pure black velvet cloth and shines a light on the diamond. Why? To contrast the diamond with the black velvet. To show how beautiful the diamond is.

Evil exists, as all things do, to glorify God. Granted, this doesn't mean that God is responsible or the author of evil. Those who commit evil are responsible for it.

"Surely the wrath of man shall praise you." - Psalm 76:10

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." - Psalm 115:3

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverbs 16:4

Interesting. This exact illustration was used at the KH yesterday. Were you there Matt?

Anyway the answer is simpler. Darkness didn't exist before there was light. Neither did evil exist before there was good. Like life and death ... in what way should death exist before life came to be? That's what I got from the classroom discussion.

But then, that's why university professors stay in university ... :whistle:

sw

I haven't stepped into a kingdom hall or read any WT publications in nearly three years. It's great. I can't even quote the NWT anymore. :thumbsup::cheer:

That was supposed to be simpler? :shocked: :dontknow::confused: That doesn't even really answer the question. Yeah, of course God existed before evil did. Just as life exists before death, a light before darkness. That didn't tell us where it came from though.

The only answer the Bible give is that God is sovereign over His creation. He has an ultimate purpose and plan He is working out that involves evil existing for a short period of time. At times we may not understand why evil exists, especially when it comes down to specific situations. But a few verses can help us to have confidence in our God, the Sovereign Lord.

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?" - Genesis 18:25

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good." - Genesis 50:20

"[God] does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'" - Daniel 4:35

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." - Romans 8:28

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" - Ephesians 1:11

"Plurality should not be posited without necessity."

The law of parsimony, aka Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor, i.e., "A problem should be stated in its basic and simplest terms. In science, the simplest theory that fits the facts of a problem is the one that should be selected."

William used the same principle in writing a treatise that proved that Pope John XXII was a heretic. You obvioously listen to a lot of theologians, Matt. So cut to the chase and apply William's sharp brain. :thumbup:

This is a deeeeeep topic.

What is evil anyway? Are defective genes evil? Is lightning that kills 20 thousand people a year evil? What about falling over and breaking an arm or leg? When one looks at the universe and the interplay between destruction and creation its apparently part of the same processes. Even Jesus needed angels so that he didn't dash a foot against the ground! We also know that sin is not always to blame for what we sometimes term as evil either, as with the paralytic. It wasn't his or his parents sin. Same goes for genetic abnormalities.

Its interesting because many atheists or even those who believe in a God find it hard to rationalize evil with a loving God. I can understand how they feel being frank. Unfortunately no one defines evil that well. Is evil suffering death or pain? Well no actually. Pain can protect against more harm. Pain is a natural mechanism for what we call good. Of course then we see insects eating alive other insects, and cats eating alive birds or lions and tigers tearing an elephant open. On a damp evening one will accidentally crush to death a slug or snail. To say God never intended these things to happen seems too simple and doesn't compute with many. It seems to boil down to a fundamental question. Did God have a choice in the way he created existence? The forces of creation and destruction are the same forces nine times out of ten, and even when they are not they depend on each other in order to operate. The sun will eventually die and the Andromeda galaxy will smash into our own. The earth wont last forever. It has a limited life span the same as us. However the same processes that will destroy the earth also allow it to exist.

Perhaps then evil is not suffering death or destruction or any of the things we call evil as humans beings but more to do with the ultimate purpose of that suffering death and destruction.

H all,
I do not think evil is merely the absence of good.

The men who designed and used the gas chambers and developed the gas to be used in the way it was used, surely were not just men from whose lives positive good was absent?
Derek

"Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The Sage!
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Sage,

You open the Pendora's box again. Out will come questions, questions, questions, questions, questions and more

If God is light and evil is darkness then evil is parallel to God

Which means that God is in conflict with evil, if God is in conflict with evil than evil if not bigger or mightier than God at least is equal to him.

If evil was a small thing God would have just whisked it away and got on with whatever He was doing?

But it seems God is also helpless until he defeats this formidable enemy.

which means that God is also vulnerable.

He can be hurt! damaged, defamed, brought to the court as if

For why could God not save His own children from its attack who succumbed to its influence (Satan and the heavenly host which is now ruling human beings from the heavens or the heavenly council of divine beings).

If God knew that evil was there, and he created his intelligent creatures knowing fully well what would happen to them then He is not all that Mighty is He?

Now don't get me wrong I am trying to understand it myself. The God of the Bible is a vulnerable God (Everyone who loves becomes weak, becuase love is giving and loosing).

Other gods in comparison claim to be all knowing all powerful all controlling it is common for the muslims to say that not even a leaf stirs without the will of Allah the mighty".

So where does that leave us?

Personally I think GOD is too proud and arrogant to explain HIMSELF to man. He is different from what we have ever experienced in our miserable lives.

We could not understand Him nor should we try to do it.

Jesus was clever if not cunning whan he said "If anyone of you wants to come to God and be accpeted he should come as this child."

I am proud of myself, my intellect, my compassion, humaness, sensitivities and sensibilities emotional makeup etc etc.

Unless I take of all these cloathes and stand absolutely naked and without covering before God I cannot understand Him. Unless I consider all my goodness and capabilities as filth and a disgustingly dirty rags I can not be acceptable to Him.

Unless I crouch like an unworthy animal fearful and reduced to the absolute exposure of my ugly reality I cannot cross the barrier.

The barrier of GOD

we talk of the love of God the love of God the love of God.

Instead we should talk of "The fear of the LORD which is the begining of wisdom"

We cannot know Him, he is too bigotted (for want of an appropriate word) to let Himself explain to human beings who He is!


Farhat Zubair

Hello Derek,

Yes, those men worked in the negative darkness of evil. Plotting to take people's lives in the most hideous way. Nothing is more obscene than murder.

Tessa

That's a very good observation Beau. Consciousness is a very big part of the equation. Let's try to expand on that idea.

Let's say, hypothetically, that YOU are God, before the universe was made, and you are made of pure light, pure love, with no defects, and you wish to give that love. You needed a vessel to receive it, a love receptor. So that's what God did, he created a vessel to receive his love CONSCIOUSLY. That vessel can be likened to a puppy that you might purchase. You give it love, but then what happens? Love can never be a one way street, the puppy loves you back, unconditionally, and gives you great joy. Now this is why we have the institution of marriage. It isn't that you have to be married to survive or "be saved", but this is the way we were created, to have a marriage partner so that love can be shared unconditionally. So now we get to the nitty gritty behind the symbolism about this "Bride of Christ" or this "wife of Jehovah".

There was a problem with the vessel. Because it inherited the gene from God that wants to GIVE love, it wasn't happy just in the receiving mode, it had NO FREE WILL OF ITS OWN. It could never be "like God", sharing love unconditionally. So it was forced to SHUT OFF the light from God as best it could, and this created what science calls "the Big Bang", which wasn't really a "bang" at all.... it was a separation from God. This was a NECESSITY because an independent vessel can only become like God through a learning process, and in order to learn, there must be an ADVERSARY. Like shadowboxing, the dark half, the alter ego, must be battled and defeated. This is the entire allegory of the Bible. All the symbolisms, the nation of Israel, the Holy Place, all of it.

Now this is where we have to use logic about "evolution". Being like God is something that the Bible clearly shows has to be LEARNED. This is what is meant when God says "I will write my laws upon your heart". There won't be any need for written laws.

We look at the history of this earth and we think it can never happen without Divine intervention, and that is VERY TRUE. But the question is HOW does God intervene? Is it physically and obviously, or quietly and with subtlety? Is it visible or invisible? There was a time when you would have been called an idiot for believing in germs. Oh yeah, invisible microscopic boogeymen that make you sick! Only a fool would believe that!

Scientists are quickly learning that DNA is magnetic and can be changed with magnetic energy. That magnetic energy is generated by the galaxy, comes into the earth through the sun, moon and stars, and directly affects human CONSCIOUSNESS. We all know our DNA has had something wrong with it for a very long time. But that DNA is changing. It is improving. I recently read a book that I highly recommend, called "The Brain That Changes Itself", by Norman Doidge. In this book he proves that THOUGHTS and BRAIN EXERCISES can change our DNA. Scientists are also finding that what they thought was "junk DNA", the 90 percent of it that appears to be doing nothing, is in fact a scrambled signal that is actually controlling the part that they CAN observe doing something. It is like a wireless stereo system. If you showed one of these devices to an ancient culture, they would look at the big processor unit in the middle, and hear the sound coming from the 2 speakers, and think that only the speakers are doing anything, but not so!

Personally, it appears to me that mankind will awaken consciousness through an evolutionary DNA change for the better. It has to do with where we are in the galaxy. For anyone who has never looked into quantum physics, this will be totally nonsense to you. Keep seeking, knocking and asking and it will be given to you. Otherwise, just dwell on positive, loving thoughts, eliminate all negative energy, love your fellow man regardless of his "beliefs", leave all the judging to God, and most of all, have faith!

Peace and Love,
Jimmy C.

Seraphim, the section I quoted above is AWESOME! Very insightful! Brilliant! :thumbsup: You've managed to encapsulate the whole point and the real issue! Seraphim the theologian! :drinking: The question is not if evil exists or not, but is God free. It's not human freedom we should be worried about, but the Potter's freedom. (Your post really got me excited!)

"But who are you, O man, a to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and he did so to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:20-24

So to answer the question you posed, yes, God did have a choice in the way he created existence to be. He had a choice, because He is sovereign. He's the one who has a plan he is working out. To quote the movie, Kingdom of Heaven, "All is as God wills it.".

Fancy arguments sound good in theory but they don`t work to well on the ground. Again, what is evil anyway? Its not being defined. Lightning is completely natural. A man standing on the ground is completely natural. The two coming into contact is completely natural. The end result of a dead man is therefor also completely natural. Given that no malfunction of creation has occurred, yet a man died by electrocution begs some interesting questions regarding the definition of evil and how we define it, and whether its a justifiable definition or not. The man has died, so that could be a defined as a malfunction of nature, as his life processes have been shut down by an exterior force outside his body. However those forces and his location are both completely natural. So the end of a human life by lightning cannot be defined as unnatural but natural. This fact alone indicates that creation is not supposed to be static or completely predictable or than everything has a defined purpose. Or perhaps some things are part of a much greater purpose. It indicates that the forces of nature that can and do kill people and cause suffering regardless of justice did not originate with or have anything to do with consciousness or sin for that matter. Those forces were around long before man.

On this level it would be more accurate to say that evil, as defined by some, existed right from the beginning in the forces of nature, and when man came along, (not even including the animals who came before him ) that evil inevitably affected man which is has. Man didn't cause it by some magnetic consciousness affect. The same is true for DNA by the way. It has mutated and changed right from when only plants existed. This is a result of the laws of physics, and they came along way before DNA. So DNA and man are in the same boat as far and being affected by the forces of nature when it and him came onto the cosmic scene. Again evil should be defined! A man killed by lightning or by falling over wrong is not therefor evil. If thats the case it brings it back to a fundamental question. Suffering and death may not be evil but they never the less hurt. Why did God create pain, suffering and death? Could he do it differently or not? If yes the reason is beyond our comprehension at this time, and if no the question is why?