:read: This is an accusation towards this board that I've read not once, but three times this week - from 2 different posters.
It seems odd to make such a claim on a forum whose purpose is "Bible Research and Christian Encouragement"!
So you guys tell us, won't you - what's behind your accusation?
'Cause I really don't see that happening here. Sister wolfie and I share posting the Daily Text and my experience is that it has given me so much more from God's Word - much more than I expected, lol. I am definitely in awe of the way those golden threads of God's wisdom and foresight are woven throughout - from Genesis to Revelation. I know some churches teach mainly from the New Testament and refer sparingly to the Old Testament - and the wtbts seems to refer mostly to the OT --- but I think it's ALL pretty darn GOOD - and useful! :thumbsup:
This is a post I wrote on the 3/20 'Daily Scriptural Text' thread when the subject came up there -
Who told us to go to men so that we will find the truth? [Men!] Who told us to search the scriptures to find the truth? [In one instance, Jesus told a Pharisee: "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mat. 9:13) - so 'where' do you think he was to go to 'learn'?]
This did not come from Christ - who warned against such things and declared plainly everlasting life is not to be found in the scriptures but only through coming to him. He told us to seek the truth so that we would be set free. [John 5 - Witness of the Scripture - 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."Jesus said the Scriptures testified to who he was - Messiah. The religious leaders of his day did not want him to be that Anointed One and they rejected the Scriptures'(Moses') witness, and God's witness and the plain witness of his own words and miraculous deeds - they rejected him. I'm certainly not doing that here - I use the Scriptures to PROVE that Jesus indeed is what he claimed, and I completely believe the witness given throughout the Scriptures!]
Almighty God testifies about this one saying, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him" [ But if we didn't have the Bible, wherein those very words are written, how would we first learn, and then come to believe?]
I feel blessed to have discovered the one truth that, at least to me, is well worth the price of the JW experience - Christ Jesus is it - he is the truth in every way that counts to God and mankind. My faith rests in him - not men - not religion. Not looking for 'the truth' anymore - I've found it and will never let him go!
I never would've learned of him if it weren't for the Bible though. I love reading it - maybe some people are past their need for it - but I still love it and love reading it. I gain more - not knowledge - but insight - into the our Father's keen wisdom reflected in Jesus, everytime I turn a page - I LOVE it! God's written word reveals His Son in such a way that still just fascinates me!
I could live without being able to read it in it's written form - it's in my heart and will forever be an integral part of me - but as long as I can read it, I want to continue studying it and finding those little gems I'd previously not noticed that, when uncovered, still shock my senses with utter awe.
Discussion boards fill a need for us to get together and share and talk about godly things - they were never meant to be a substitute for the spirit's teaching us directly, on a personal level.
I don't feel lost - I'm found! Not groping - clinging to Christ! Never again to be deceived, having found the REAL Life, Truth and Way in the Lord and Savior of us all!
It doesn't do us much good to look back with regret for not having heard the Lord's voice from the beginning - we hear it now and plow forward. I think religions play an integral part in our real spiritual growth - even if the only thing of value we learn is being able to discern what's wrong with religion! It wasn't a waste of time, as I've previously, grievously, thought - it was an important experience from which we learned invaluable lessons. Even bad examples teach us what not to do and how not to act, right?
You are right, Christ Jesus is THE Word of God - and his words preserved for us in the pages of the Bible are simply golden words to live by. He is God's Truth, amen! I can't see that the Bible replaces him - but reveals him!
Some have insisted upon scriptural answers to their questions here, saying that 'just our own words' of explanation aren't 'enough'. So, saying that we quote the Bible too much is on the other side of the spectrum. :rainbow:
So what is "Bible worship" - how can we avoid going too far in our respect for that great book? Where's the line between 'respect' and 'reverence'? Can our love for the written word overstep our love for God or - God forbid - step on our love for the very embodiment of God's Word, Jesus Christ?
Or - is this an empty accusation, void of substance? <<< that's my 'guess', but I really don't understand the motivation behind it, which could be valid in some cases, but not applicable to all. ???
Just askin' for an explanation! :peace:
What is an idol? It is something that we place in a position in the place of the one we should be looking toward.
Well there are many idols in the world and our lives diverting attention away from where we are to be focusing. The very one that God himself lifted up for us to look to and live.
Peter got the idea when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
The problem is not necessarily with the Bible itself but rather how we view it. For instance it is common to call it "The Word of God". Yet the Bible itself tells us who the Word of God is. (John 1:1,14; Revelation 19:13) So maybe in this way our attention is diverted.
I was just thinking of John the baptizer. They were coming to him and asking was he the Christ. Well he answered plainly that he was not. He was just a voice calling out and pointing to the one who was coming - Jesus.
So it is with Scripture - it is a testimony calling out and pointing to one, Jesus. This is how Jesus used Scripture. "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself." This how the early Evangelizers used Scriptures. "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him."
In as much as we had a background with Jehovah's Witnesses lets look at something we were mislead to believe.
The New World Translation says, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." - John 17:3
We often used this very verse to say why we should go the meetings and study the Bible and learn about Jehovah and Jesus. (Well mainly Jehovah.) Yet if one really could study the scriptures and have everlasting life then Jesus would not have said to the scribes and Pharisees (the Bible experts if you will):
"You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have everlasting life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."
So if we believe the Bible is true than we must accept the witness that is here given - that everlasting life is not found in the Scriptures, but in Jesus.
John 17:3 is better translated as "This means everlasting life, their knowing the only true God, and the of the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ."
How do you really know someone? I can read and read and read and study and study and study, taking in knowledge about someone but I can't say I truly know them unless I am actually with them.
If you read the Bible and believe in Jesus and go to him to continue learn then that is wonderful. However the fate of the scribes and the Pharisees is a standing example of the folly of Bible study that does not lead us to Christ.
Jesus is alive! Indeed Hebrews testifies that "the Word of God is alive and powerful." We can still go to him and learn from him. Or we can go other places and learn about him.
Maybe that is good to start with. I may try to find that original topic you quoted from and answer more specifically.
yours in him - Anthony
As I've said before: "We all need a place to start." And in my case, I start with the Bible, since all I know about God and Jesus is what I have found there, and it makes sense.
However, there are those who (like the Catholic Church) say that we don't need the Bible, for they now have direct revelations from Jesus. Therefore, what they encourage is for us to turn from our "worship" of the Bible, and to start worshipping them. Nothing new there.
I think I need to add a postscript -
I just noticed that this section of the forum is called - "Building A Spiritual Foundation - Various subjects to help build faith and trust that the Bible is God's Word."
This is an excellent example of how our attention can be diverted away from the Truth.
If we believe the Bible let's look at this passage:
"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."
Our "spiritual foundation" is not the Bible. It is Jesus! He is the rock mass that we build our faith upon. Our faith and trust isn't in the Bible - but it is in Jesus. (By the earlier example presented, Jesus didn't rebuke them for their lack of belief in the Scriptures but rather their lack of belief in him! And as already mentioned - Jesus is "God's Word".
As I've said before: "We all need a place to start."
I agree, "We all need a place to start". My friend, I started in a Kingdom Hall reading a New World Translation and I would have probably stayed there to my death if not for hearing his voice and coming to him.
And in my case, I start with the Bible, since all I know about God and Jesus is what I have found there, and it makes sense.
If so, you will always just "know about God and Jesus" and never come to know them personally. The Bible itself says that Jesus did far more than can ever be written down. But what was written was done so that we might believe. (John 20:30,31; 21:25) So if through the Bible you have believed and come to Jesus to learn more - Praise God!
However, there are those who (like the Catholic Church) say that we don't need the Bible, for they now have direct revelations from Jesus. Therefore, what they encourage is for us to turn from our "worship" of the Bible, and to start worshipping them. Nothing new there.
Yes indeed - Much better to leave off of men and man's religions and kiss the son.
As I've said before: "We all need a place to start." And in my case, I start with the Bible, since all I know about God and Jesus is what I have found there, and it makes sense.
However, there are those who (like the Catholic Church) say that we don't need the Bible, for they now have direct revelations from Jesus. Therefore, what they encourage is for us to turn from our "worship" of the Bible, and to start worshipping them. Nothing new there.
We really need one of the "Bible Worship" critics to speak for themselves on this thread before we can go very far.
Any volunteers out there?
One of the first times I ever preached I remember quoting "Woe to those who carry their God in their hands." Then I looked at the congregation and saw at least half of them were all clutching their bibles.
Yes, people do worship their bibles, but only when they won't or can't or don't want to actually meet and know God. The bible is a testemony to God and His son and the power of the ressurection, His promises, His love - but it isn't God. As someone once said, its our love-letter from God, but we then need to get to know the writer.
So many religious people try to find out what God's saying by scouring the bible (and refusing to come to Jesus) thats why there is so much division in the church on things like war, because God has both endorsed war and condemned it but you can't know what God's saying in any one situation without actually asking him and finding out.
If the Bible tells us anything, its that God doesn't have a one-size-fits-all-stock-answer to every situation, He expects us to seek His will. The bible also shows us that the men God loved and considered friends were as full of mistakes and sin as we are, but that He has dealt with that in His Son.
The bible is a fabulous way of knowing those facts about God that then enable us to seek him, but too many religions just draw a great list of rules from the pages and never once encourage people to know God.
Its often about control. A religious organisation can't control what God says, but can control how people interpret a written word. When you encourage people to know God for themselves it means a leader can't have an iron grip on his church and that is scary for them, and for the people who often just want a simple yes or no answer to something.
In my opinion the bible is wonderful, but Satan knows its contents easily as well as any of us and he's not saved. Its a big fat signpost that says "GOD, THIS WAY. HE'S GREAT!"
We need to appreciate that signpost and make certain it is preserved clearly for future generations, but we can't imagine it is everything God wants to say to you.
:heartbeat:
(PS - its can get into pretty wild territory when people start saying "God says this" and "God says that" - which is one good reason to focus a great deal on the bible - especially for new Christians. When God speaks, it will always be confirmed by scripture, its not going to contradict the God who reveals himself in the bible. Its hard because God does speak, and people need to know how to hear him, but then someone comes along with a great long "revelation" and its hard to say that you suspect its not God who's spoken, but then you feel hypocritical because who are you to question "God."
Thats why a grounding in scripture is essential, and, actually, a damn good church with a pastor who you know hears God. Mistakes happen. All though history people have thought they've heard God. Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, B'ha'ullah(sp?) - they've all heard something all right, but what they've heard has sown division into the church and not blessing.
I can honestly see why people fall into the trap of just sticking to the bible and nothing else, its safer territory.
Oy vay, I wish there were nice, easy solutions to all this. I'd say there is, it's KNOW GOD, but isn't it easy to dismiss all proper, scriptual correction by saying "Oh, I know God."
Well, the wolves and weeds and false prophets will always be there, but that doesn't mean the real thing isn't there too.
We also have to remember that Jesus promises that if we ask our Father for bread he won't give us a rock.
I believe when we are truly broken and willing to give up everything we think we know and believe and want to believe, then we will find Him. But we do have to be willing to be broken, and be willing to genuinely be taught by the Spirit.
There was a time when I was afraid that it was a demonic thing telling me that God was with the Goyim and that Messiach was Yeshua, because such thoughts were truly abhorant to me. But, in the end, knowing God became more important than having "god" confirm any of the doctrines I had ingrained as truth.
Sorry, I've been rambling....
"For, all the Scriptures are inspired by God and are good for teaching, for correcting, for setting things straight, and for providing righteous discipline. They qualify a man of God and provide him with whatever he needs to do all sorts of good work."
Whose words should we trust?
"For, all the Scriptures are inspired by God and are good for teaching, for correcting, for setting things straight, and for providing righteous discipline. They qualify a man of God and provide him with whatever he needs to do all sorts of good work."
Whose words should we trust?
I'll default to Peter's answer - "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
Conversely, "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save." - Psalm 146:3
Malkah, you are so right!! The Bible is very important for Christianity. But it should not be worshiped.
It is important because without it we would know next to nothing about God and Jesus. Without the Bible we can barely prove that Jesus even existed! The Bible also has many things that are "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16) . But more than that, "These are the Scriptures that testify about me," says Jesus. (John 5:39). Indeed, Jesus has the words of everlasting life, and some of them have been written down and preserved for us in the scriptures! Without the Bible we would not know of the perfect salvation Christ won for us on the cross. The focus of our study of the scriptures should be to hear the about and from Jesus! Doing so makes us "thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:17).
But one thing we can not forget is that this scripture, all of it, is "God-Breathed". It's source is from God. In many ways, the scriptures can be like an arbiter. Brother Bob says that God has revealed X to him. Brother Joe says that God has revealed "Not X but Y" to him. Who's right? Well Scripture 1:65, when interpreted correctly and taken in context, says X. So what I'm trying to say is that revelation from God and hearing from Jesus can be a bit subjective. Scripture is something we can fall back on, to "test the spirits" with. How does Jesus respond to the attacks of Satan? By quoting scripture.
So many of the discussions here are attempts to understand what God has revealed in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with that. Some here encourage us to not worship the Bible but Christ. And they are absolutely 100% correct. It's like Malkah mentioned, the Bible is like a letter from a Husband to his wife. The wife doesn't neglect her husband and cherish and love the letter. Nor does she toss the letter out and ignore it. She reads, and rereads the letter because it is from her beloved. The Bible is from our Beloved. Let us cherish it because we cherish Him, but never cherish it over Him.
Peace,
Matt
Excellent Post Malkah,I agreed with every word.
Thanks everyone for the replies, Malkah, Jim, Matt and Justin - I enjoyed reading them all!
Wow Matt - I love this and completely agree :
So many of the discussions here are attempts to understand what God has revealed in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with that. Some here encourage us to not worship the Bible but Christ. And they are absolutely 100% correct. The Bible is like a letter from a Husband to his wife. The wife doesn't neglect her husband and cherish and love the letter. Nor does she toss the letter out and ignore it. She reads, and rereads the letter because it is from her beloved. The Bible is from our Beloved. Let us cherish it because we cherish Him, but never cherish it over Him.
Scripture is something we can fall back on, to "test the spirits" with. How does Jesus respond to the attacks of Satan? By quoting scripture.
Of this, a critic might say, 'sure, sure, but what did the devil quote in trying to tempt Jesus? Scripture!'
That's what I see going on - kind of a 'damned if ya do and damned if ya don't' type thing. Any discussion of a Bible topic begins with 'pro' arguments and proceeds into the 'con' arguments - usually I'm involved.:redface: I've seen it time and time again - the Bible can be divided for a person's own agenda. As I've brought up before - even the KKK brazenly uses the Bible to promote their twisted cause! And as we've seen with the wtbts - one can make it say whatever one wants it to say - even if it means having to put a few more pen-strokes here and there... and that's why I refuse to use it(though I've found the Interlinear NWT is VERY useful!). Beyond the ink and paper testimony of the written word, the Holy Spirit gives us discernment on how to 'handle the word aright' ourselves, and how to discern between the right or wrong use of it by others.
Justin - yes, you were one who's made the statement and Fugitive1, Jimmy C., is the other. When you brought it up at first I thought it was an anomoly - then I thought maybe you were specifically talking to me when you replied on a thread where I'd made the point to turn away from 'men' and turn towards God and Christ...
We created discussion boards and forums for to study the Bible and we attempted to learn Greek and Hebrew thinking in human languages and learning that we will know the truth. Now in many ways we are still as lost as when we were JW's - ever groping - ever grasping - being deceived.
Had we only listened to the True Word of God alone we would never be mislead. This one testifies - "I AM THE TRUTH". Let us go to this one for he has the saying of everlasting life and continues to speak!
I posted to you there, but you didn't reply, so I felt this was still up in the air. It just sounds like you lumped everyone into one category there - "still lost" - and I, for one, don't want to be lumped! I do my darndest to promote Christ Jesus - he's everything to me. Even in doing that, my 'speech' alienates some who think it's possible to talk about him too much. So if the accusation is towards me - I'm doing something wrong if I'm not getting the point across that I have indeed, with a boat-load of others, 'crossed the Jordan'. If you don't intend for a statement to be taken personally - especially when there are only 2 people in the discussion, lol - then I suggest you make some kind of disclaimer to that effect. Does that sound reasonable to you? :friends:
Still waiting for Jimmy to reply... unless it's one of those 'drive-by' situations and the collateral damage done to the real people behind the usernames doesn't bother him. What's the story, Jimmy?
:peace:
once upon a time, there was a family with four beautiful daughters, april, susie, mary, and temperance. and one day the postman brought a letter addressed to the four girls by name from the grandpa who loved them all so very much.
april read the letter and said "see? grandpa says he loves me the most."
next susie read the letter and said "see? grandpa says you all need to be more like me."
mary read the letter and said "you better watch out; grandpa says he is gonna getcha!"
termperance hadn't read the letter yet, but said "i know my grandpa and i don't believe he said any of those things."
and so temperance (the youngest) just waited for her sisters to become a little older and a little wiser.
the end.
I'll default to Peter's answer - "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
Through the centuries, faithful Christians were slowly roasted over fires, boiled in oil, beheaded, and flayed and buried alive for simply reading the Bible. Today, most "Christians" don't see what all the fuss was about, and some preach that we really don't need it, because they've developed a personal pipeline to Jesus.
It turns Revelation 20:4 into hyperbole. "And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years."
It seems funny that Moslems do more Koran reading than "Christians" do with the Bible, and they are more willing to give their lives for what they believe. No kudos to Moslems here, just an observation about the zeal of all the rest.
If you don't intend for a statement to be taken personally - especially when there are only 2 people in the discussion, lol - then I suggest you make some kind of disclaimer to that effect. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Willa - I tend to do it the other way around. If I want someone to take something personally I will address them by name or respond to a quote like this. Any how, if I have written something that you can use - then use it. If you don't need it - ignore it. However, I'm curious that you have taken these things to heart out of the mouths of two separate witnesses. It might be worth considering. I'll do my best to explain where I'm coming from but I don't have the answers. Jesus does and he is available to you. He is alive and he speaks!
Through the centuries, faithful Christians were slowly roasted over fires, boiled in oil, beheaded, and flayed and buried alive for simply reading the Bible. Today, most "Christians" don't see what all the fuss was about, and some preach that we really don't need it, because they've developed a personal pipeline to Jesus.
Jim - a long time before the Bible even existed, faithful Christians were martyred for bearing witness to Jesus.
It turns Revelation 20:4 into hyperbole. "And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years.
Where these ones persecuted for the sake of the Bible? The answer is right there in the Bible. They were persecuted for bearing witness to Jesus. There are other examples of this in the Bible and even more in the writings of the early Christians. This is yet another example of how we substitute faith in Jesus with faith in the Bible.
It seems funny that Moslems do more Koran reading than "Christians" do with the Bible, and they are more willing to give their lives for what they believe. No kudos to Moslems here, just an observation about the zeal of all the rest.
So the Moslems are zealous for a holy book (Koran); JW's are zealous for a holy magazine (the Watchtower); and Saul/Paul was zealous for a holy book (the Law) -- in each case their zealousness to what is printed on paper, scrolls, and stone is to no avail. How much better to be zealous for a man - JESUS!
Again people loved Jesus and died for him years even centuries before they ever loved the Bible.
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