Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Ablebodiedman:

Since you mentioned, that you saw yourself as an "Emancipator" of JWs, I thought that you would find this Bible passage interesting. It is about the "Man from Bozrah" of Isaiah 63.

Passage Isaiah 63:1-7 NASV
Isaiah 63

1Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3"I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4"For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5"I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6"I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

7I shall make mention of the loving kindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD,
According to all that the LORD has granted us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has granted them according to His compassion
And according to the abundance of His loving kindnesses.

I did some reading on this subject, and I found that the WTS believes the "Man from Bozrah" is Jehovah himself.--See Jan 15, 2007 WT, page 11; March 1, 2000 WT, page 14.

However, other Bible scholars tend to think this is one of the "Servant Songs" pointing to Jesus. They cite Isa 61:2 and link it with Isa 63:4 showing this man to be one and the same as the "Servant" of God. But the problem is, we know that Jesus never visited Bozrah or any other city outside of the borders of Israel.--Compare Luke 4:18,19; Matt 15:24.

So, What are your thoughts on these verses?

Of course, I invite anyone else to make a comment if they wish to.

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect

Jesus conquered the flesh.

Ah, but Justin...it isnt about Jesus.

Its about someone else. :dontknow:

If it is in the Scriptures it is about Jesus. :D

Justin...I think you need to realise that not everything is about Jesus.

You are now too obsessed with Jesus to see that there are many scriptures in the OT that are not about Jesus, but rather, about men, or a "man".


Please wake up from your obsession about Jesus, and see the truth that Fugitive1 is going to show us! :D

John 10:1...

"Truly, truly I tell you, the person who does not enter the sheepfold through the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a bandit.

The one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.

It is to him the gatekeeper opens the gate, and it is his voice the sheep hear. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

When he has driven out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice.

They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognize the voice of strangers."

Jesus used this illustration with them, but they didn't understand what he was saying to them.

So again Jesus said, "Truly, truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.

All who came before me are thieves and bandits, but the sheep did not listen to them.

I am the gate. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture.

The thief comes only to steal, slaughter, and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

The hired hand, who is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming, deserts the sheep, and runs away. So the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

For he is a hired hand, and the sheep do not matter to him.

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep...."


:coffeeread:

Just another observation:

Our research has shown that MANY OT scriptures were in fact talking about Jesus, not Jehovah. And in the process of their translating the NWT, they shoved the Name Jehovah in where it neither belonged or made any sense (which people like Bethel Boy then use to their advantage to try to prove the Trinity).

However, if you look carefully at the context of this Chapter of Isaiah, you'll see that it is talking about Jehovah. For, note the following verses (from 2001 LXX): "17 From ancient times Your Name has been on us, so why have You allowed us to stray from Your ways? Why have You hardened our hearts not to fear You? [O please] return because of Your servants… for we’re the tribes that You chose by lot, 18 so we can inherit Your Holy Mountain.

"Our enemies have trampled on Your Holy Place, 19 and we have become as we were long ago… a time when You didn’t rule us, and we were not called by Your Name."

LOL - you crack me up bro. If it Scripture (inspired) it is about Jesus. If it just an OT history book about a bunch of jews killing people and worshipping idols it is about men. At least that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

But to elaborate, Edom represents the flesh. In the beginning when sin entered into the world those that were spirit were clothed in a long garment of "animal" flesh. Esau was born covered from head to toe with hair. He represents the flesh. In the womb our forefather Jacob grasp Esau - or contended with the flesh. Later he grasp God - contended with the spirit. So it was said, "You shall no longer be spoken of as Jacob, but as Israel, because you have contended with god (spirit) and men (flesh) and have prevailed." So Esau brought forth the nation of Edom and Jacob the nation of Israel. Edom is of the flesh. Israel (at least in God's eyes) were Holy. Jesus conquered from Edom - he overcame flesh/sin. (And he has the battle scars to prove it.) He was alone in this endeavor - for he was abandoned by all - except the spirit of the Holy One that proved mighty and true.

Hello Fugitive,

I like it when people ask for "my thoughts".

That way I can give my thoughts in statements instead of asking rhetorical questions all the time. Both of these save me from accusations of dogmatism.

First of all if you read the preceding chapter as well as this one then it implies the man from Bozrah is an end time man who appears during the very final part of the days. With this in mind the man is definitely a righteous Christian who leads men to Christ.

I'll break up the verses from here on and give some thoughts:

The man is likely a Gentile, not a Jew

Reminds me of Joseph and the coat of many colours.

Read Genesis Chapter 49. Jacob does indeed tell his sons what will happen to them in the final part of the days.

Genesis 49: and the strength of his hands was supple

Marching in the greatness of his strength.

This man is going to know the truth (speak in righteousness) which has the actual power to save peoples lives.

Genesis 49
“Offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree, Joseph is the offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree by the fountain, that propels its branches up over a wall.

This will be a solitary man whose words of truth condem those who probably wont be listening. They refuse to listen to the things that might actually help them. Instead they show animosity toward him when he is trying to help them.

In this way people really are tested and judged. That is why there is blood on his garments.

It is similar to the judgement on 1st Century Jerusalem. All Jesus Christ wanted to do was help the very same people who killed him.

Consider also the account of the disciple Stephen who just wanted to help the same people who stoned him to death.

Jesus Christ explained that it is the way his brothers are treated which will condemn (judge) people.

These judgements will have already happened BEFORE Jesus Christ returns to separate the sheep from the goats.

That is why their blood is already on Josephs garments before Jesus Christs imminent return.

Joeseph will know this important fact however, it will elude the people he witnesses to.

The same people he wants to help.

The man will be very familiar with the iniquities which occur during the time of the end. His own redemption is close so he is also very aware of Jesus Christs imminent return.

That is one reason why I do not think the man from Bozrah is Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ was tested and tried long before the end time and has no need of redemption.

He desperately wants to help in a very righteous way and yet no one wants to help him do that.

If this is Joseph during the final days then his brothers should be helping him do the very same things.

They don't. He is a solitary. Singled out.

I expect this will dismay but not inhibit Joseph.

Genesis 49:25
He is from the God of your father, and he will help you; and he is with the Almighty
They will continue upon the head of Joseph, even upon the crown of the head of the one singled out from his brothers.

His righteous words will condemn even his own brothers.

Other sons of Jacob.

They won't like him or what he has to say.

Their blood will also be on his garments.

Joseph will continue to "speak in righteousness" realizing that words which are meant to help people will instead condemn them.

It is very similar to what Isaiah was told in an earlier chapter:

Isaiah 6
9 And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”
11 At this I said: “How long, O Jehovah?” Then he said: “Until the cities actually crash in ruins, to be without an inhabitant, and the houses be without earthling man, and the ground itself is ruined into a desolation;

So even though the man from Bozrah is solitary please notice that pluralism is used in these verses; granted us, granted them.

The man from Bozrah will glorify Jesus Christ while actually trying to help people understand things which they themselves cannot bear to hear.

I think Jesus Christ may have been alluding to this when he said:

John 16
12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.

This verse which you did not post above also plays a significant role in understanding what will happen surrounding these events:

The Holy Spirit will be hurt (grieved).

The only Unforgivable Sin.

The transgression guaranteed to cause desolation. (Daniel 11)

I invite you to watch the video in my signature.


Also this verse:

What name? ........... Jehovah?

For a little while the temple sanctuary will be intact and operating.

The new covenant which allows access will be honored for a little while.

It will then be profaned and the new covenant undermined.

Daniel 11
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.

This is end time stuff so the temple being profaned is the Christian temple.

The temple established by Jesus Christ's death.

Christians will not bear hearing anyone say that this actually happens immediately before the end.

They won't believe it.

There is a lot more I could say about this in regard to the Book of Revelation and the "sons of Jacob" mentioned in Genesis Chapter 49.

I believe the sons of Jacob play significant roles in the end times immediately before Jesus Christs return.


In Christ

abe

Hey....small question here....:confused:

The title of this thread is "The Man from Bozrah". Why "man"?

:read:"Who is this one coming from E′dom, the one with garments of glowing colors from Boz′rah, this one who is honorable in his clothing, marching in the abundance of his power?" -- Isaiah 63:1

I checked the Greek and found no "man". Have I missed something here?

Rez ...lookin' for a "man" hehehe:D

Hello Resolute,

Maybe the thread should be called, "The Angel from Bozrah." LOL! :D

Level12

Hi Ablebodiedman:

You Said:

and

The main reason why I cited these verses is to see if anyone else could see any similarity in the "The Man from Bozrah" and the "Man" or "Jew" of Zech 8:23 who in the End Times leads all peoples (Gentiles) to God. (please refer to the "You" or "You People" thread- by Jayme)

By the way, who do you believe the "Man" or "Jew" in Zech 8:20-23 is?

Do you believe there is any connection here? Your thoughts.

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect

So, ablebodiedman - are you saying, indirectly, that this 'one from Bozrah' is you? Or someone from the Romanian sect - Rus Virgil, maybe? Or do you think it's an end-time prophet not yet revealed to themselves?

Let's not beat around the bush, OK? Speak plainly and honestly - I too am asking for your thoughts alone.

:peace:

Hi, sorry that i don't see the similarities. However, I think the Septuagint rendering of these verses clarifies matters.

"Who is this one that’s coming from Edom… from Bozrah wearing clothes with red stains… this beautiful one with the strong arm?

‘I have [come to bring] justice, and [to plead] the case of salvation.’

But why are you wearing red clothes, which appear as though you’ve been treading a wine vat?

‘I am covered with things I have trampled, and no man of the nations is with me, for I’ve trampled them all in my rage. I broke them up [like breaking] the ground, and poured out their blood on the earth; so, all My clothes are defiled. For, a day of payback has come upon them, and the year of ransom is now at hand. I searched and found no one to aid Me; I paid attention, but no one would help. So, I brought salvation with My mighty arm, and attended to it in My rage. I trampled them down in my anger, and their blood I led into the ground!’"

Notice that the person (who appears to be Jehovah) was not a gentile from Bozrah, but One who came from Bozrah after destroying it. I realize that's not the answer you are looking for, however.

Rez,

Good question.

Can a man be refered to as "one".

Genesis 49: "the one singled out from his brothers"

John 16: "However, when that one arrives"

John 16: "That one will glorify me"

Is that one a man?

Could it be Jesus Christ when it is Jesus Christ himself who sends that one?



Lots to think about.


In Christ

abe