Although I have alway bought into the WTS view that "the Great Babylon" is false religion; as I was working on the book of Micah today, I noted (once again) that apostate Israel and Judah (who I understand to be false religion) are then captured by Babylon (false religion once again?), and from there, "the remnant are released and returned after 70 years.
Just the briefest of glance at these prophecies indicates that no such thing has happened in a modern fulfillment, and it appears as though we have the characters skewed. Any thoughts?
The Harlot of Babylon, I think, stands for the final, climactic expression of rebellious civilization. Babylon is the center of human power and glory and wealth. Babylon is the symbol of human civilization with all its pomp and circumstance organized in opposition to God. It is the sum total of pagan culture: social, intellectual, commercial, political, and religious. It is the essence of evil, the heartbeat of heathenism, the symbol for collective rebellion against God in any and every form. It is the universal or world system of unbelief, idolatry, and apostasy that opposes and persecutes the people of God.
In other words, Babylon the Great is the World.
The Harlot of Babylon, I think, stands for the final, climactic expression of rebellious civilization. Babylon is the center of human power and glory and wealth. Babylon is the symbol of human civilization with all its pomp and circumstance organized in opposition to God. It is the sum total of pagan culture: social, intellectual, commercial, political, and religious. It is the essence of evil, the heartbeat of heathenism, the symbol for collective rebellion against God in any and every form. It is the universal or world system of unbelief, idolatry, and apostasy that opposes and persecutes the people of God.
In other words, Babylon the Great is the World.
Bro Matt -- I agree with you 100%...its way bigger than false religion.
Babylon = the "kosmos".
The Harlot of Babylon, I think, stands for the final, climactic expression of rebellious civilization. Babylon is the center of human power and glory and wealth. Babylon is the symbol of human civilization with all its pomp and circumstance organized in opposition to God. It is the sum total of pagan culture: social, intellectual, commercial, political, and religious. It is the essence of evil, the heartbeat of heathenism, the symbol for collective rebellion against God in any and every form. It is the universal or world system of unbelief, idolatry, and apostasy that opposes and persecutes the people of God.
In other words, Babylon the Great is the World.
This exprimation is very close to the truth
sometime before I have exprimed somehow similar , my lack of english didn't allow me to be clearer
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...1#pid21001
anyway , there is another aspect : the Bible tells us that Babylon has a "daughter"
should be good to seek to understand who she is...
in Christ,
rus virgil
to add,
to me it is the "spirit of this world"
this is how the final beast comes out of the sea of peoples.
it is a collective oneness that is backed by the dragon.
People have made gods with or without "organization"
all along and continue to do so.
to add,
to me it is the "spirit of this world"
this is how the final beast comes out of the sea of peoples.
it is a collective oneness that is backed by the dragon.
People have made gods with or without "organization"
all along and continue to do so.
Hey bro -- I agree 100%....cheers! :friends:
Although I have alway bought into the WTS view that "the Great Babylon" is false religion; as I was working on the book of Micah today, I noted (once again) that apostate Israel and Judah (who I understand to be false religion) are then captured by Babylon (false religion once again?), and from there, "the remnant are released and returned after 70 years.
Just the briefest of glance at these prophecies indicates that no such thing has happened in a modern fulfillment, and it appears as though we have the characters skewed. Any thoughts?
JWHVACR,
Thoughts?
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.†6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus
Revelation 18:23
because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.â€
Who is responsible for the blood of the prophets and of the holy ones?
If you look through the Old and New Testament scriptures it was always the Israelites who killed their own prophets including even Jesus Christ.
So Babylon the Great is not false religion it is true religion.
The prophets audience was almost always their own people. They most often prohesied to the top ranking ones of their own people.
If we really are living in the final part of the days then who are the top ranking men of the earth?
Is it presidents and prime ministers?
Billionare commercialists?
Or is it these people:
Revelation 1:4-5
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,†“The firstborn from the dead,†and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth
Revelation 5:9-10
because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.
If we are living in the final part of the days these people are no longer Jews, they are Christians.
This is difficult for many to accept.
Please consider who it was that played a significant role in Jesus Christs own death.
Judas Iscariot - a Christian. (Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones)
Judas Iscariot was one of the Apostle Johns spiritual brothers.
A top ranking man of the earth:
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
It is very likely that Judas Iscariot heard Jesus Christ say the above.
Judas Iscariot was one of the first Christian leaders.
Does that mean there will indeed be others who are last:
Matthew 19:30
But many that are first will be last and the last first.
If there are some who are last then how many Judas Iscariots will be among them?
Revelation 19:9
“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her
Matthew 24:50
the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be
In Christ
abe
The Harlot of Babylon, I think, stands for the final, climactic expression of rebellious civilization. Babylon is the center of human power and glory and wealth. Babylon is the symbol of human civilization with all its pomp and circumstance organized in opposition to God. It is the sum total of pagan culture: social, intellectual, commercial, political, and religious. It is the essence of evil, the heartbeat of heathenism, the symbol for collective rebellion against God in any and every form. It is the universal or world system of unbelief, idolatry, and apostasy that opposes and persecutes the people of God.
In other words, Babylon the Great is the World.
Good afternoon bro matt:
Praise Jah and Jesus we people!!!
"the whole world IS lying in the power of the wicked one." 1John 5:19nwt Being aware of satan and his reach is a safeguard.
This was on my mind when i awoke this a.m. Thanx for the post collecting my thoughts so well, which i probably would not have shared, too much brainrash and meds:funnyface:
"Something" seems to be coming together, "somehow", in spite of many and much.;)
Thank you too, all you brothers and sisters for sharing your insights with those of us trying to keep on the watch!
Much Christian Love and Prayers to You, your family and ALL:grouphug::heartbeat:
sis
Here is an excerpt from my book which identifies Babylon the Great.
Most of the evidence that builds towards making this statement is in the preceding chapters:
The Governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses through the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has built a city containing over six million people and through changing Jesus Christ’s baptismal commandment have vows which reach right up into heaven before God in his holy temple! Through this means they have successfully made a celebrated name for themselves while gathering together God’s people. In ancient times there were men on the earth who attempted to achieve the same thing and yet did not.
This attempt is recorded in Genesis:
Genesis 11:4
They now said: “Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth.â€
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been completely successful in their attempt and so have a much greater achievement.
Their ancient forefathers attempted and failed to build a city called Babylon. The greater achievement of the modern day Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and its Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has therefore rightfully earned them the name; Babylon the Great.
In Christ
abe
Babylon the great and her daughters = Papacy and Protestanism (Papacy's daughters)
Babylon the great and her daughters = Papacy and Protestanism (Papacy's daughters)
Papacy I get. Protestantism? Back your claims up by consistent exegesis of the appropriate texts please.
Babylon the great and her daughters = Papacy and Protestanism (Papacy's daughters)
RR114,
I think Catholicism and Protestantism are predecessors to Babylon the Great.
Daniel Chapter 8 contains the scriptures:
Ram with two horns.
Larger horn = Roman Catholicism (Papacy)
Smaller horn = Orthodox Catholicism
Goat:
One horn = Protestantism
Split into four horns:
One: = Baptists
Two: = Methodists
Three: = Presbyterians
Four: = Adventists ---- (small came out)
A small horn came out of one:
CTR and the Bible Students
Small horn then grew toward army of heavens and put on airs aganist the prince of army (Jesus Christ):
Jehovah's Witnesses and God's Spirit Directed Organization.
= Babylon the Great
Let us build a tower with its top in the heavens.
aka
it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens
They gain entrance to the temple and undermine the chosen ones.
In Christ
abe
Hi Abe
Re: "They gain entrance to the temple and undermine the chosen ones."
Please name (just one will do), a "chosen one"....(also provide a date, if you please, as to when this "chosen one" would have been "chosen")...
gogh
Babylon the great and her daughters = Papacy and Protestanism (Papacy's daughters)
RR114,
I think Catholicism and Protestantism are predecessors to Babylon the Great.
Daniel Chapter 8 contains the scriptures:
Ram with two horns.
Larger horn = Roman Catholicism (Papacy)
Smaller horn = Orthodox Catholicism
Goat:
One horn = Protestantism
Split into four horns:
One: = Baptists
Two: = Methodists
Three: = Presbyterians
Four: = Adventists ---- (small came out)
A small horn came out of one:
CTR and the Bible Students
Small horn then grew toward army of heavens and put on airs aganist the prince of army (Jesus Christ):
Jehovah's Witnesses and God's Spirit Directed Organization.
= Babylon the Great
Let us build a tower with its top in the heavens.
aka
it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens
They gain entrance to the temple and undermine the chosen ones.
In Christ
abe
I'm sorry for being so blunt but, what you said is ridiculous and utterly preposterous. This passage is plain as the nose on your face. The angel himself provides the interpretation:
"As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia. And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power." - Daniel 8:20-21
The king of Greece is Alexander the Great. After Alexander's death, in the prime of life and in the height of his conquests, his brother and two sons were all murdered; and the kingdom was divided among four of his generals, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Cassander and Seleucus.
This has nothing to do with the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant churches. To say so is to do incredible violence to the text.
I don't want to sound mean, so I apologize for my tone, but please be responsible in your exegesis of the text. You can't make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. Context, context, context.
Hi Abe
Re: "They gain entrance to the temple and undermine the chosen ones."
Please name (just one will do), a "chosen one"....(also provide a date, if you please, as to when this "chosen one" would have been "chosen")...
gogh
gogh,
Don't know when they were chosen however, I can extend what I have said above to the point where I can name 10 chosen ones.
Daniel was told; “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end."
That is why I believe these beasts represent what happens to Christianity after the first century.
The final part is the small horn which then grew great.
I think the Book of Revelation magnifies this final part of the denunciation and gives us more detail.
The small horn (CTR and Bible students) which grows great (JW's and God's Spirit Directed Organization) represent the first and second (image) wild beast of Revelation.
In the Book of Revelation chosen ones are referred to as "kings of the earth".
Ten of these kings give their power away to the wild beast and yet still continue to rule with it.
These are undermined chosen ones.
Here are their names:
1 –John Barr
2 - Carey Barber
3 - Samuel Herd
4 - Theodore Jaracz
5 - Steven Lett
6 - Gerrit Lösch
7 - Guy Pierce
8 - Albert Schroeder
9 - David Splane
10 - Daniel Sydlik
Here is a Washington post newspaper article which explains when and how they gave away their power and yet still continue to rule:
“The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, as the group is officially known, had been run by a so-called Governing Body. Now, religious and administrative duties will be divided, with three newly formed corporations running the group's U.S. operationsâ€
-- Washington Post Newspaper Oct 9, 2000 --
In Christ
abe