I posted this elsewhere. Seems to make sense here.
There's a key to Babylon the Great. It requires some open-mindedness:
Rev 12 - Woman with crown of twelve stars delivers child in pain to God. She is attacked and persecuted by the Dragon, but God is protecting her. She is fed/protected for a period of time (1260 days), in the wilderness.
Rev 17 - Angel shows John the harlot. She is in the wilderness, drunk with blood of Apostles/Disciples, sitting on back of beast. Eventually, the beast she's on devours her.
Woman = Christian congregation. 12 stars are apostles. Delivery is the ascension of Jesus. Satan attacks the early christians, but doesn't prevail yet. She is protected in wilderness (reminiscent of Jesus comments that they would go into darkness, and the Israelites and manna.) The woman appears again, but has changed after losing her protection from God...
Harlot = This was the woman, now transformed into a harlot. She is infested with Roman paganism/mythology. The beast she is on is Rome. In 391, the Roman Empire eliminates paganism with the destruction of the Temple of Serapis.
I posted this elsewhere. Seems to make sense here.
There's a key to Babylon the Great. It requires some open-mindedness:
Rev 12 - Woman with crown of twelve stars delivers child in pain to God. She is attacked and persecuted by the Dragon, but God is protecting her. She is fed/protected for a period of time (1260 days), in the wilderness.
Rev 17 - Angel shows John the harlot. She is in the wilderness, drunk with blood of Apostles/Disciples, sitting on back of beast. Eventually, the beast she's on devours her.
Woman = Christian congregation. 12 stars are apostles. Delivery is the ascension of Jesus. Satan attacks the early christians, but doesn't prevail yet. She is protected in wilderness (reminiscent of Jesus comments that they would go into darkness, and the Israelites and manna.) The woman appears again, but has changed after losing her protection from God...
Harlot = This was the woman, now transformed into a harlot. She is infested with Roman paganism/mythology. The beast she is on is Rome. In 391, the Roman Empire eliminates paganism with the destruction of the Temple of Serapis.
COMankind,
Think you are on the right track connecting the "woman" with the "harlot".
The old testament does the same with Israel. (God's Kingdom)
If we maintain that bible precedent then Revelation is comparing a Harlot to Christianity (God's Kingdom).
In Revelation 12 it speaks of a few remaining ones.
Revelation 12
15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.
The scripture implies two categories of "her seed".
The ones who drowned - The Harlot.
The ones who remain - The Woman.
It all ties back to what Jesus Christ said in the gospels.
There will be an Evil Slave and a Faithful Slave.
A Harlot and a Woman.
The Harlot is simply Christianity (God's Kingdom) undermined.
Babylon The Great.
The Watchtower Society is therefore correct in saying that Babylon the Great is false religion however, they say that not realizing how they have been thoroughly undermined themselves in a truly reprehensible way. They ARE the hypocrites!
Jesus Christ said that it would be the "hypocrites", the evil slave who would weep and gnash their teeth.
Revelation 18
“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her
The "kings of the earth" mentioned above are therefore the evil slave.
This also implies that some of the "kings of the earth" will remain faithful.
The remaining ones mentioned in Revelation 12.
In Christ
abe
I would see the kings of the earth as all those nations in the early centuries who benefited from the dominance of Zeus and the Roman pagan system, which made Rome and the surrounding meditteranean wealthy.
Revelation 20-22 gives the vision of the new heavens and new earth. The new earth has kings and nations and dogs (org religion) on it. The kings and nations are healed by the leaves of the trees, planted beside the river of water of life (which is only in heaven) God has a tent with mankind, where he protects and comforts the meek who seek him out.
This pictures the world we are in now.
Satan was abyssed in 455. That's when Rome was sacked.
1000 years later, Constantinople was surrounded by the Ottoman Empire in 1453. This was the last stronghold of the Roman Empire. Ottomans were from the land north of the Black Sea (the new Gog and Magog, which used to be Scythians) the army of 200k was condemned there and then. There were precious christians inside the city. Satan was thrown into the lake of fire.
That was then end of the middle ages, and the beginning of the Italian Renaissance...when the leaves from New Jerusalem started to fall.
Greetings COMankind
Re: "Satan was thrown into the lake of fire."
Could you back up a bit and inform as to your opinion regarding when Satan was abyssed and when Satan was let loose for a while?....as it seems these things (Satan's being abyssed and after thousand years ending, let loose for a little while),...occur previous to his being thrown into the lake of fire.
Christian love,
gogh
Greetings!
A little while is a very little while, as in a couple of years or even months. Satan puts into the heart of Mehmet II to attack Constantinople. He rallies the troops.
Also, the number 1000 is one of the few non-symbolic numbers in Revelation. It is also a round number. I would imagine in the original Greek, if we translated one of us saying 'in a thousand years' today, that we wouldn't have necessarily meant precisely 1000 years down to the day.
So, in the end, it gives room for 'a little while'
Greetings COMankind
Re: "Satan was thrown into the lake of fire."
Could you back up a bit and inform as to your opinion regarding when Satan was abyssed and when Satan was let loose for a while?....as it seems these things (Satan's being abyssed and after thousand years ending, let loose for a little while),...occur previous to his being thrown into the lake of fire.
Christian love,
gogh
[/quote]
Ablebodiedman, just want to apologize...my response may have come off as being snarky or pretentious...I didn't mean that.
I appreciate the exchange of thought, and the angle you presented.
I posted this elsewhere. Seems to make sense here.
There's a key to Babylon the Great. It requires some open-mindedness:
Rev 12 - Woman with crown of twelve stars delivers child in pain to God. She is attacked and persecuted by the Dragon, but God is protecting her. She is fed/protected for a period of time (1260 days), in the wilderness.
Rev 17 - Angel shows John the harlot. She is in the wilderness, drunk with blood of Apostles/Disciples, sitting on back of beast. Eventually, the beast she's on devours her.
Woman = Christian congregation. 12 stars are apostles. Delivery is the ascension of Jesus. Satan attacks the early christians, but doesn't prevail yet. She is protected in wilderness (reminiscent of Jesus comments that they would go into darkness, and the Israelites and manna.) The woman appears again, but has changed after losing her protection from God...
Harlot = This was the woman, now transformed into a harlot. She is infested with Roman paganism/mythology. The beast she is on is Rome. In 391, the Roman Empire eliminates paganism with the destruction of the Temple of Serapis.
COMankind,
Think you are on the right track connecting the "woman" with the "harlot".
The old testament does the same with Israel. (God's Kingdom)
If we maintain that bible precedent then Revelation is comparing a Harlot to Christianity (God's Kingdom).
In Revelation 12 it speaks of a few remaining ones.
Revelation 12
15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.
The scripture implies two categories of "her seed".
The ones who drowned - The Harlot.
The ones who remain - The Woman.
It all ties back to what Jesus Christ said in the gospels.
There will be an Evil Slave and a Faithful Slave.
A Harlot and a Woman.
The Harlot is simply Christianity (God's Kingdom) undermined.
Babylon The Great.
The Watchtower Society is therefore correct in saying that Babylon the Great is false religion however, they say that not realizing how they have been thoroughly undermined themselves in a truly reprehensible way. They ARE the hypocrites!
Jesus Christ said that it would be the "hypocrites", the evil slave who would weep and gnash their teeth.
Revelation 18
“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her
The "kings of the earth" mentioned above are therefore the evil slave.
This also implies that some of the "kings of the earth" will remain faithful.
The remaining ones mentioned in Revelation 12.
In Christ
abe
[/quote]
Hi COMankind
Do you believe/teach this scripture has been fulfilled as well as the teaching that Satan has already been abyssed?
1 Corinthians 15:24...
"Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. Â For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. Â As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."
peace.
gogh
Hi COMankind
Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:
I'll admit that reading the passages in Revelation 17 and 18, and acknowledging as I do that Babylon the Great is Rome, there IS a case to be made that it's talking about the fall of pagan Rome.
However, a couple of things nag at me and prevent me from completely accepting this viewpoint.
(1) God throws "Babylon the Great" down like a millstone thrown into the sea, never to be found again.
Ancient Babylon fell, and eventually faded into the dust. However, although Rome fell in 476 or sometime around then, it has never disappeared as a city, and in fact is today the thriving capital of Italy... and a billion Christians look to Rome for spiritual guidance.
This seems to contradict the viewpoint that God dealt a final blow to Rome in the 5th century.
(2) The 1,000 Year Reign
Revelation implies the martyrs in Christ are resurrected and rule with him for 1,000 years. Are you suggesting their rule represented the Byzantine empire (the former eastern half of the Roman empire)?
I don't see any particularly strong evidence that resurrected holy ones were ruling the Byzantine empire.
Incidentally, how does the Roman Papacy fit into your viewpoint, if at all?
Gogh,
Yes, I do. This parallels to Rev 20.
There are three forms of death:
1) the moment we lose our fleshly 'shell' - this is the understanding of death that most of us read into those verses, when we breathe our last physical breath.
2) the grave- this was temporarily setup for the period from Adam to immediately after Satans death.
3) Eternal death - lake of fire. This has always existed and always will.
The death that was destroyed, which Jesus came to free mankind from, was the grave. The other two have been there from the beginning.
Does that help?
Hi COMankind
Do you believe/teach this scripture has been fulfilled as well as the teaching that Satan has already been abyssed?
1 Corinthians 15:24...
"Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. Â For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. Â As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing."
peace.
gogh
[/quote]
Interpretum,
The Harlot or Babylon the Great is actually not Rome, but the pagan system that Romans relied on. It was destroyed, all of her temples, statues, idols, etc. This was replaced eventually with Christianity becoming the official church of the state in the fourh century.
She rides on Rome for a while though, and Rome destroys her.
The 1000 year reign was in heaven. Those holy ones were waiting 'under the altar' in heaven. More were probably starting to be transferred when Jesus ascended. Once 455 hit, they were there, some more were transferred right en, all were ready to rule with Christ.
Later, the great crowd (released from the grave around 1453) joins them as one flock, one shepherd.
Does that explain?
Oh, and no particular view on the Papacy. Some may have had good hearts, who knows.
They are in general symbolized by the dogs in Rev 22, along with any other organized religion barking doctrine at people.
Hi COMankind
Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:
I'll admit that reading the passages in Revelation 17 and 18, and acknowledging as I do that Babylon the Great is Rome, there IS a case to be made that it's talking about the fall of pagan Rome.
However, a couple of things nag at me and prevent me from completely accepting this viewpoint.
(1) God throws "Babylon the Great" down like a millstone thrown into the sea, never to be found again.
Ancient Babylon fell, and eventually faded into the dust. However, although Rome fell in 476 or sometime around then, it has never disappeared as a city, and in fact is today the thriving capital of Italy... and a billion Christians look to Rome for spiritual guidance.
This seems to contradict the viewpoint that God dealt a final blow to Rome in the 5th century.
(2) The 1,000 Year Reign
Revelation implies the martyrs in Christ are resurrected and rule with him for 1,000 years. Are you suggesting their rule represented the Byzantine empire (the former eastern half of the Roman empire)?
I don't see any particularly strong evidence that resurrected holy ones were ruling the Byzantine empire.
Incidentally, how does the Roman Papacy fit into your viewpoint, if at all?
[/quote]