Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi All,

I wanted to open this particular bible discussion up about a question I’ve had for some time, taken from Acts 24:15. I am sure you are all very familiar with this verse, as it has been cited oftentimes at the kingdom hall. It states:

“15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15)

At the kingdom hall, I’ve have heard the WTBTS and the Jehovah’s Witnesses say this resurrection would be an earthly one, that will occur during the one-thousand year reign of Christ. I take it most of you feel the same way. My question on this is,

How can we prove it will take a thousand years to empty the graves, based on what the bible actually says on the topic? In other words, does the bible actually teach this? (I’ve provided below relevant bible texts that I believe, actually speak on this subject.)

“And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept on] the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept on] the dregs, filtered. 7 And in this mountain he will certainly swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. 8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].” (Isaiah 25:6-8)

““And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book. 2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence.” (Daniel 12:1-2)

“And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-14)

“And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:4)

….Any thoughts?

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect:)

I believe that the resurrection of the just is the resurrection of born again Christian believers. This happens at Christ's second coming. They, along with the Christians who are alive at the Lord's return, rule with Christ on earth for 1000 years. (Though that number could be symbolic of a long period of time.) This is the resurrection to Life.

There is also the resurrection of the the unjust. This is the resurrection of Judgment. These are the rest of the dead, the unbelievers, the goats. They are the ones who are raised at the end of the Millennium after Satan has been cast into the Lake of Fire. They go before God to be judged for their lives, and go off into eternal punishment. (note: the "unrighteous" or "unjust" who are resurrected, are not those who didn't get a chance to hear the gospel as the WT teaches, there is no basis for this textually. After death, there is no second chance, and Romans 1 is clear that those who haven't heard the gospel are still "without excuse".)

Now I refrained from posting all the scripture references I'm thinking of, but perhaps as the discussion progresses, I might have to... LOL :thumbup::read:

Hi fugitive1 ...

I don't think we can 'prove' it either way ... for I don't know of any scripture that says this specifically ...? :read::dontknow:

Jesus will have ALL authority to do as he thinks fit ... and whatever and however he rules will be in ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS ...

I don't think that there are some answers for some questions yet to come to pass ... but I have full confidence that the resurrection process will be just perfect ... whether it be a 'day', a 'week', 'a month (s)', or however many years ... :thumbsup:

Just a quick thought before I go down and get my coffee ...!!!:drinking::drinking:

Luv ya'll ... BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

If I may correct or 'qualify' my answer ust a wee bit ...

As to 'time frames' we have Martha's comment to Jesus ...

John 11:24 ...

New International Version (©1984)
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

So, here we see the 'when' ...

The LAST DAY

But it doesn't indicate HOW LONG this 'last day' WILL LAST ... :thinking:

So, again I don't think we can really know until that 'last day' is over and all those in the memorial have come out ...

What we DO know is that it will be a time of great joy and reunion!!:cheer::cheer::rose: :rose: :rose:

I have already been resurrected to life.. This means you are a spiritual vessel of Christ singing the new song. This is happening now earthwide, and will continue, therefore the bride keeps saying..."COME"

rev 22:17

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

As Digital Punk always says: "Live the Kingdom Now"
And I say..."This is the Last Day."
:heartbeat:Love :heartbeat:

New Heart

Very well put New Truth!

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 16:2 "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Philippians 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

John 16:32 "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.

When Christ calls us, we go follow Him. We are scattered, and even though others look on and think..."Poor sister or brother so and so...They left the truth!"..we are not alone at all, but Christ is with us, just as the Father was with Christ.

They are renewed..from the dead man, and brought to life through the Holy Spirit of God and now they glory in the Father and also Christ Jesus anew. They leave everything behind that has ever worked against the Holy Spirit, which is anything to do with the teachings of men, but they are taught by the Holy Spirit, because Christ lives through them in their hearts, and Christ now is with them. They are chosen as clean vessels to be used for the Father's purpose, because they did all things for God's Glory, not because they had to..but because they wanted to please God and this is their true pleasure, to serve Him from the heart.

Hi all,

I certainly want to thank everyone here who posted, for all of your fine comments on this topic of special interest to me.:clap:

Now, for my comments.

In reading over one of the passages of scripture I cited above, Revelation 20:11-14, I came up with a question about it, for personal clarification. Here is the passage of scripture again:

"And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-14 NWT)

Your opinion is needed here:

If we were to approach a person who was just an ordinary person off the streets, a person who had not necessarily studied the scriptures for many years or anything like that, and we asked him/her to read over this part of scripture that you have just read, would he reasonably conclude after reading these verses (in our opinion) that the earthly resurrection would occur at:

a) the beginning of the 1,000-year reign? or
b) during the 1,000-year reign? or
c) at the end of the 1,000-year reign?

What are your thoughts…if any?

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect

Hi fugitive1 ...

Revelation is such an interesting book isn't it ...:read: giving us a glimpse of some of the things that will happen in our futrue! :thumbup:

Not sure I will be of much help ... but before I get to my busy day I will quickly write down some thoughts and hopefully someone will add to them or whatever ... ;)

In this particular chapter you cite when I read over it it seems to speak about TWO resurrections here doesn't it ...? :thinking:

Rev. 20:6 ...

New International Version (©1984)

Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

It would then appear that THIS 'resurrection' occurs BEFORE the thousand year reign I would think ... :blush:

Now, in rereading this passage, and I am certainly no expert, I would hazard a guess that this event 'may' be happening after the thousand years, periods during the period when the Devil is loosed and his cohorts are seeking to kill those who have made the choice to serve God and his Son.

It would 'seem' to me that it is Jehovah who may be on the 'Great white throne' and doing but I could be wrong ...:giverose:

An interesting point that I noted that in Rev. 20:12 ...

New International Version (©1984)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

So, wouldn't this seem to indicate that the 'dead' mentioned here are not really dead in a 'literal' as how could they be 'standing' ...?:dontknow:

Wasn't those who chose to serve God at the GT now LIVING since our God is a God of the living ...?

And as it said earlier that those who take part in the first resurrection don't have to worry about 'death' since it has no authority over are their names already written in this book or is it just a guarantee that it WILL be ...?

Also, I have wondered myself about what the 'great and small' might signify ...

Are these 'dead' ones ALL of mankind or just those who practiced vile things and are now being judged ... and is it then saying the sort of bad to the really really bad ...?

Well fugitive1, I guess I have ended up with more questions than answers, but it would seem that since our future is yet to unfold, and some things are not yet for us to know that it would make sense that we can't we know everything yet wouldn't we no matter how much we want to! :love:

Snce you said this is of 'special interest' to you ... may I ask about why this is so ...?

Just curious is all ... :happyheart:

Christian love to you ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Friday morning 3/19/2010

I was standing in line to see a concert. There were lots of people wearing the concert T Shirts, and on the back of them it read..."The Last Day" was the name of the band playing. I woke up and wrote this down.

John 6:35-40
35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life,

[/b]and I will resurrect him at the [b]Last Day.”

John 6:35-40

Rev.14:3

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I submit that "an ordinary person", with or without some amount of Bible knowledge, wouldn't be able to tell just from Revelation 20:11-14, since there's no time frame mentioned. (vs 5 is the tell)
The whole chapter seems to be a synopsis of events, which I assume are in chronological order. Verses 1-3 - the abyssing of Satan; vss 4-6 - the first resurrection of those who reign with Christ for the thousand years; vss 7-10 - the release of Satan who wars against God and loses. Then, the verses you posted - the "white throne" judgment of the dead. By reading the context of this chapter, it seems this second resurrection happens c)at the end of the 1,000-year reign.

In vs 4, of the first resurrectees it says: "they came to life", but it doesn't say where.
Verse 11 says - "earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them" - so where are those of the second resurrection, "the rest of the dead [who] did not come to life "until the thousand years were completed"(vs. 5)?

The beginning of ch. 21 continues: 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

So - it sounds like the second resurrection is hanging in nothingness - after "earth and heaven fled away", but before John saw "a new heaven and a new earth" - huh!:huh:

:scratchhead: I never noticed that before! Sorry to add more question marks, lol.

What's your opinion, Fugi? Others here have talked about this quite a bit - search for the words 'white throne judgement', 'resurrection' , etc. on the forum. I've never delved too deeply into the book of Revelation, it's so symbolic and I'd rather not be too dogmatic about the symbolism, like some religions do :whistle:. It's most important to keep in mind, though, that we know Who wins in the end! :D :cheer:

:peace:

I think the first sentence of the passage could be helpful. That's verse 11. It says:

"And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them."

This event described above, can only happen at Armageddon I believe, before the millennium starts. We know this because the "former" heaven and "former" earth is removed from God's sight, before "New Jerusalem" comes down from heaven, from God to mankind. (See Revelation 21:1, 2 New World Translation.) That's why it says: "...no place was found for them," the wicked society of mankind. They are removed before God's Righteous millennium starts, I believe.

So its possible, a novice of scripture could reasonably conclude the events described in Revelation 20:11-14 could occur BEFORE the millennium starts or at least at the beginning of it.

Level12

Don't forget, that in this discussion on the resurrections, the WT's idea of an "earthly" resurrection and a "heavenly" resurrection is completely bunk. There is not one shred of biblical evidence for this two tiered system of salvation. The 144,000 and the Great Crowd are just different symbols for the same group, the Church, all born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. The destiny for the believer, the Christian is who is part of the body, is not ultimately heaven. The Christian goes to heaven only as an intermediate place. Or in other words, Christians only go to heaven until the Lord returns, then we begin our rule with Christ on the Earth. Judgment day for the Christian is the second coming. Then we rule over the survivors of Armageddon, for 1000 years, then after Satan is let loose and destroyed, the unrighteous, the unbelievers, will be raised for judgment.

Just some thoughts,

Matt

Good morning willa my dear friend :friends::drinking:...:hug:

Just a side point ... I think that verse 5 in Revelation is an interpolation ... not in the original writings ...? :dontknow: And it is a wee bit difficult isn't it to place certain events where and when as it seems that there isn't any specific chronological order, and it would seem that there are various types of imagery to explain the same things ...?

That being said I just discovered something in my reading over of your and others comments and am starting a thread in the reasoning scriptures section and hope for some input ...:giverose:

I wasn't sure if I should put it in the watchtower section since it is something that I think may be another in the NWT ... or maybe they are right ... :huh::confused:

Hey level 12 ... :hibye:

When I read your comment I looked up some extra scriptures and thought I'd would put this out on the table to munch on as food for thought ... :eat:

You said ....

That's why it says: "...no place was found for them," the wicked society of mankind. They are removed before God's Righteous millennium starts, I believe.

I have to ask though ... :giverose: do you then think that there will be no wicked on the earth during this reign of peace ...?

What about the scripture that says ...

Rev 22:14,15 ...

14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.
15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie.

Rev 21:12 ...

And he took me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and let me see the holy town Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And notice what is said about what New Jerusalem has ...

Rev. 21:13 ...

Three of these gates were on the east, three were on the north, three more were on the south, and the other three were on the west.

So, doesn't it look like even DURING the 1000 year period there will be wicked on the earth? :dontknow:

Anyway, just some thoughts ... :love:

Luv to all BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

:cheekkiss: Hey dear sis - an interpolation???!! Well that throws a wrench into the works, eh? And this is why I don't make my brain sweat with the details of what happens in the future. What we need is trust and faith now, to help us through this life, 'cause we know Who wins in the end :cheer:. I plan on being paralyzed with wonder, for the most part, as the awesome plan unfolds, lol. :shocked: :worthy:

Does it matter what happens when - I mean, really? Or is it just another example of having to prove the WT teachings wrong?(You don't have to prove it to me, I'm a believer!)
I'm suggesting that chronology and our human desire to have everything in a logical, to us, context... doesn't matter. God's plans are above our human logic and intellect. I don't think we are able, at this point, to know - and so it becomes an entire exercise in futility. We could put our time to better use, imho, if we use it to build up our faith and the faith of our brethren to trust in God and Christ that it will be "just so" - perfect - whether we understand how and when it comes about or not. Not one of us will boast "told ya so!"

But that's just me... lol - I know a lot of the brothers and sisters are intently interested in Revelation's prophecies and their outworking - more power to ya! Everything has it's place, but it's just not my forte'.

Happy researching to you all! :read:
:peace: