Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I've been reading and meditating on this passage from Malachi.

6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am h a father, where is my honor? And if I am i a master, where is my fear? says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. But you say, ‘How have we despised your name?’ 7 By offering polluted food upon my altar. But you say, ‘How have we polluted you?’ By saying that the Lord's table may be despised. 8 l When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? Present that to your governor; will he accept you or show you favor? says the Lord of hosts. 9 And now entreat the favor of God, that he may be gracious to us. With such a gift from your hand, will he show favor to any of you? says the Lord of hosts. 10 Oh that there were one among you who would shut the doors, that you might not kindle fire on my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hand. 11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. 12 But you profane it when you say that the Lord's table is polluted, and its fruit, that is, its food may be despised. 13 But you say, ‘What a weariness this is,’ and you snort at it, says the Lord of hosts. You bring what has been taken by violence or is lame or sick, and this you bring as your offering! Shall I accept that from your hand? says the Lord. 14 Cursed be the cheat who has a male in his flock, and vows it, and yet sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished. For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and my name will be feared among the nations.
- Malachi 1:6-14 ESV

Malachi recognizes that all the people were guilty of dishonoring God. Their careless attitude towards the worship God had instituted revealed their lack of love, honor, and respect for the Lord. By begrudgingly offering defiled sacrifices they defile and disrespect the Lord. I thought it was interesting that in verses 11 and 14 that God says that his name will be great and feared among the nations. In verses 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, and 14 all call God the "Lord of hosts". God is stressing his greatness and his omnipotence. In verse 14 Malachi sums up the reason for the Lord's anger at the dishonor he's been getting, and that reason is the majestic greatness of God. Israel needed to be reminded of just how awesome, great, and all together holy the Lord is. It seems to me the key for Israel to return to true worship is to get a fresh appreciation of this truth. I think this whole section really applies to those of us who still worship God corporately in the congregations or churches, but application can be made to private worship as well. We must be mindful of how we sing the hymns and pray. We need to put our hole heart and mind into our singing and prayer. We have to focus our minds on the text of the song we are singing. Spurgeon once said, "heartless hymns are insults to heaven". HOW TRUE! Just as the Lord "is not pleased" (verse 10) with heartless sacrifices in Malachi's day, so he "is not pleased" with heartless worship today. We need to catch the majesty and the supreme dignity of the One we are called to worship. When we are singing the hymns or songs at Church or privately, what are our minds on? Are the words just coming out, while our minds are thinking about anything but God. What an insult that is to God. What about prayer? When someone is representing the congregation in prayer, are we listening to what is being prayed? We have good reason to sing and worship and pray, because we have the great Lord Jesus! He has sent the Holy Spirit to fill us and enable us to worship him in Spirit and truth. We get this awesome privilege and joy of having Christ, and we should not dare to take that lightly. Israel took to worship of God lightly, and provoked his anger. Are we gripped with the reality of Christ? What excites us about worship? In Israel, they were bored with worship. They did not find offering sacrifices to the Lord exciting. What excites us? Is it the band, (if there is one), or the worship leader and singers? Is it the musicians playing the hymns? None of those things should excite us! The only thing that should excite us is the Lord Jesus and his unmatched greatness! We have to mean what we sing and pray. It needs to come from our hearts. Our emotions should be in response to the words we are singing and praying. Mindless singing is worthless singing. When we sing we are speaking directly to God. There is so much in this passage that I can't do justice to in words that I think applies greatly to what our corporate and private worship of the Lord. Remember, worship isn't just what happens on Sunday, it's a 24/7/365 thing.

Mavos,

We are told what is expected in Chapter 3:


Malachi 3:8
“Will earthling man rob God? But YOU are robbing me.”
And YOU have said: “In what way have we robbed you?”
“In the tenth parts and in the contributions. 9 With the curse YOU are cursing [me], and me YOU are robbing—the nation in its entirety. 10 Bring all the tenth parts into the storehouse, that there may come to be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this respect,” Jehovah of armies has said, “whether I shall not open to YOU people the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out upon YOU a blessing until there is no more want.”
11 “And I will rebuke for YOU the devouring one, and it will not ruin for YOU the fruit of the ground, nor will the vine in the field prove fruitless for YOU,” Jehovah of armies has said.


I don't think God is talking about hymns and prayers here.

Compare it to what Peter said:


Acts 3:19
“Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get YOUR sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah 20 and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. 22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’


Now look at how the very first Christians behaved:


Acts 2:44
All those who became believers were together in having all things in common, 45 and they went selling their possessions and properties and distributing the [proceeds] to all, just as anyone would have the need. 46 And day after day they were in constant attendance at the temple with one accord, and they took their meals in private homes and partook of food with great rejoicing and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to join to them daily those being saved.


Acts 4:32
Moreover, the multitude of those who had believed had one heart and soul, and not even one would say that any of the things he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common. 33 Also, with great power the apostles continued giving forth the witness concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and undeserved kindness in large measure was upon them all. 34 In fact, there was not one in need among them; for all those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold 35 and they would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one, just as he would have the need.


The community described in Acts differs so completely from what I see happening in the western world's present social structures that it would glaringly stand out.

If a Christian community actually started to do this in our modern world it would be quickly labeled as communist and the governments would try very hard to usurp it.

I don't see Christians today living very differently from the pagan communities around them. The present day governments seem to like it that way.


In Christ

abe

Mavos,

Consider this again:

Acts 4:32
Moreover, the multitude of those who had believed had one heart and soul, and not even one would say that any of the things he possessed was his own; but they had all things in common. 33 Also, with great power the apostles continued giving forth the witness concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and undeserved kindness in large measure was upon them all. 34 In fact, there was not one in need among them; for all those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold 35 and they would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one, just as he would have the need.


I think that present day governments would try to usurp such a community.

The bigger danger however, is that such a Christian community could be quickly and very easily undermined from within.

All it would take is an uncharitable event for the selfish advantage of just even one of the individuals in the community. If allowed it would quickly spread throughout the entire community and usurp it also.

The Apostle Peter seemed to understand this eventuality and the danger it represented to the new Christian community:

Acts 5:1
However, a certain man, An·a·ni´as by name, together with Sap·phi´ra his wife, sold a possession 2 and secretly held back some of the price, his wife also knowing about it, and he brought just a part and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “An·a·ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.”


You have played false, not to men, but to God.

Now back to what it said in Malachi.


Malachi 3
And YOU have said: “In what way shall we return?”
8 “Will earthling man rob God? But YOU are robbing me.”
And YOU have said: “In what way have we robbed you?”
“In the tenth parts and in the contributions. 9 With the curse YOU are cursing [me], and me YOU are robbing—the nation in its entirety. 10 Bring all the tenth parts into the storehouse, that there may come to be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this respect,” Jehovah of armies has said, “whether I shall not open to YOU people the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out upon YOU a blessing until there is no more want.”


In Christ

abe

This is the message we have to get to the Watchtower and all Big Religions. I was told by God, to follow what the Prophet Amos did. If they listen, they will be forgiven and rewarded.

abe -

First - By way of a side issue, you should really pick a different translation. You are clearly using the NWT. I can tell by the use of Jehovah in Acts. There are absolutely no Greek manuscripts or textual evidence whatsoever that the divine name was ever used in the New Testament. The Greek is Kurios, Lord.

Second - From the New Testament and from extra Biblical and post biblical sources like the Patristics, we can tell exactly how the early church operated. They did gather corporately for worship one day a week, namley, Sunday.

Third - What the Acts church did in giving all the money to the apostles to distribute is not "communism". Communism is a political ideology when the Government takes your money by force. This is not the government, but the Chruch, and there is no taking by force, it is a willing giving. This is not communism. Communism is a political system invented by Carl Marx and which has been proven to not work.

Fourth - I reject your "great apostasy" theory, which I think you allude to.

Fifth - There is no application between Malachi and what the Early Church did. The context of Malachi applies to Post Exilic Jews before the time of Christ and before the fall of the Persian empire. The chapter I am dealing with has to do with worship by means of the sacrificial system. I have applied the principals there to corporate worship in the Church. The passage on tithing has application only to the Post Exilic Jews, as we are not under a tithe law, we give out of our hearts as much as we want.

Sixth - I think your attack on the "Christian Community" in the west is baseless and wrong.



Matt

New Heart,

All these religions think they are living in a spiritual paradise right now.

They will be offended at anyone who suggests there might be anything wrong with their present community.

It is still however, a good message to tell them but they will not want to hear it.


Isaiah 6:9
And he went on to say: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”



In Christ

abe

Please listen to all three Amos videos..for this is the warning, the warning they will not appreciate, or like too much,but I do know they send people here to read.


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ku3BsAY8...re=related

New Heart,

I find it a little strange that I read the entire Book of Amos before I fell asleep last night and here you are asking me to read it again.

I listened to those videos.

Amos describes the situation and injustices I see happening around me today in all the world.

Christianity included!

The things we can expect to see occurring immediately before the day of the Lord.

It describes the same outcome as Isaiah did:

Isaiah 6:11
At this I said: “How long, O Jehovah?” Then he said: “Until the cities actually crash in ruins, to be without an inhabitant, and the houses be without earthling man, and the ground itself is ruined into a desolation; 12 and Jehovah actually removes earthling men far away, and the deserted condition does become very extensive in the midst of the land.


Amos 9:10
By the sword they will die—all the sinners of my people, those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’


These things frighten me a great deal.


In Christ

abe

I know God is pulling my heart to put these videos out on the web. If I don't act, He told me He would take my lampstand away..no kidding.

I posted this on here 06-13-2010.

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=6391

I see God is pointing you to Amos too.

:heartbeat:
New Heart

Hello Matt,

While you have a right to your opinion, credence should be given to the fact that the church did compromise by acceding to its political will for recognition by the state, thereby averting its further persecution. By doing so, it rose to a corporate status in a political system which licenced it to become the persecutor of its opposers. How was this Christian? How was it just a "great apostasy" theory?

In Christ,

sw

Which Church? When did this happen? The church isn't a specific organization or denomination. It is all born again believers irrespective of organization or denomination. So when did all born again believers do what you have described above? Yes there was a period of time when the truth of the Gospel was suppressed and there were only a remnant. This happened with the slow rise of the Catholic Church. The rise of the Catholic Church comes basically in two phases, one in 380 when Theodosius made it the state religion and about 1000 with the first Pope and the beginning of the papacy. However during this time the truth was never lost, (i.e. Wycliffe, John Hus, the Lombards, and others.) In 1516 the Catholic Church began to be questioned by Martin Luther. By 1600 the truth of the Gospel was able to be spread freely again. I would consider the Roman Catholic Church as the harlot, Babylon the Great. A counterfeit city of the true city of God.

Hope that helps,

Matt

Might it not be considered the "Great Apostasy" when any religion calls itself Christian while currying favour politically? Is this not against Jesus words, "my Kingdom is no part of this world?"

BTW, even among protestant leaders the idea of voluntary membership was considered dangerous to the political health of a community. Thus most protestant religions you mention were persecuted in their early years for not subscribing to the an acceptable, political regime.

One example to note was Frisian Menno Simons who began the Mennonite movement, but which itself became a city state, fragmenting into bloody outcomes. I wouild think that as soon as Christians impose legal community requirements of religious membership, they are actually gaining political backing by such member requisite. When membership is forced, it ceases to be Christian, does it not?

It defiantly is an apostasy, a rebellion. If indeed the "man of lawlessness" was tied to the Roman Emperor in the first century, and thus the Roman Pope in later centuries after the political Roman empire broke up, then perhaps the "apostasy" refers to the "Romanization" of the professing Church. (There is a difference between the visible Church, those who profess to be Christians, and the invisible Church, those who actually are Christians and live by Christ's standards).

The Protestants who broke off from Rome started first with a theological reformation. Menno Simons was not Protestant, but Anabaptist. It took the Protestants about a hundred and fifty years to figure out that the whole Church/State thing doesn't work and isn't biblical. Most Protestants, however, did change their minds on this issue by the 1650 - 1700 range. One motto of the reformation was "Semper Reformata", "Always Reforming". What more can you ask for after such a long period of darkness. You can't expect perfection all at once.

I personally don't agree with the hardline Anabaptist view, which the WT hold, on political involement.

What I mean is, the WT says that you can't vote, or individually become involed in politics at all whatsoever.

I disagree. There are examples in the Bible where God's servants have had political office in pagan governments, Joseph and Daniel are two examples. However these are the exception to the rule. Political office for a Christian should be a rare thing. Usually it would be for the peservation of life. Things like the abolition of Slavery. It was Christians, William Wilberforce, who spear headed to apolition of the slave trade in the Uk. So I think there are times when specific Christians are called for a specific mission. Sometimes the only things required for evil to win is for good people to do nothing.

That said, the Church as a body should not be involved in politics. Local congregations should not be supporting this or that political party or preaching about political issues. The local congregation is to preach the gospel not politics.

All of that said, I don't think that the political involvement of a church is the main sign of apostasy. The main part of apostasy is a denial of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, either through unbelief or through preaching a false gospel. I agree that political involvment of a church is wrong and a slippery slope.

I just tend to be a bit more gracious then the Society is.

Matt

Interesting!

"my Kingdom is no part of this world?"


Now think about what Jesus Christ is going to do when he returns:


Matthew 13
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.


That is what Jesus Christ will do to HIS KINGDOM, which is no part of this world.


Isaiah 66:6
There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.



In Christ

abe

He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:37-42 ESV)

Okay... Here's the passage from a better translation then the one you used.

Your argument here seems to focus on the phrase "out of his kingdom". You seem to think this reference to "his kingdom" refers to the Church. Thus, if I understand what you are trying to say correctly, if the devil sows causes for sin and law-breakers in the Church, then this would be evidence for a "great apostasy" and the corruption of the church.

If I have misunderstood your argument please clarify.

I think that once again you neglect the actual context of the parable. You fail to let Jesus define his terms and instead you read your own meaning into the term "his kingdom".

What in the context leads me to say this?

Notice first that "the field is the world". This is key, because this will indicate that we are not dealing with the Church, but with the world.

Second, there is a contrast between two groups. "The weeds" are sown by the Devil in "the field", obviously, for where else would things be sown but in a field. The field is the world, as already stated. So right away we recognize that the World is divided into two groups. "The sons of the kingdom" are one group represented by "good seed", and "the sons of the evil one" are the other group represented by "the weeds".

Thirdly, Jesus states the destiny of the weeds, "the weeds are gathered and burned with fire." This happens, at "the close of the age", an obvious reference to the second coming and the events surrounding it. Where are these weeds gathered from? Obviously the field. What is the field? The world. So "the sons of the evil one" are gathered from the world.

Fourth, there is Jesus makes the final application of this parable. "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age." The phrase "just as" implies a comparison and "so will it be" tells us what it is being compared to.

We see this else where when Jesus says, "Just as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:37) Notice in this comparison Jesus goes on to explain further what he means. "For as in those days before the flood they were...." and then he goes on to explain. He is giving more detail as to what he meant by the comparison. (Matthew 24:37-38)

The same is true here in Matthew 13. Jesus is doing the exact same thing. "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace." Jesus explains what he means. Notice the similarities: Reapers gather weeds out of the field and to be burned, and Angels gather all causes of sin and all law-breakers out of his kingdom to be burned. The reference and similarity is clear.

So we come to my point:

The field that the weeds are taken out of is the world. The place where the causes of sin and law-breakers are taken out of is "his kingdom". Obviously then, "his kingdom" is a reference to the world, the field, and not the Church.

If you object to this, here are some verses that may help in how the world can be considered "his kingdom".

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" (Matthew 28:18 ESV)

"For Christ must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." (1 Corinthians 15:25 ESV)

So in conclusion, "his kingdom" here refers to the world and not to the Church.

We must let scripture interpret itself. Let the context define its own terms. We must not read our own meanings into words, but let those words receive their definition from the text itself. This is the difference between exegesis, getting our interpretation from scripture, and eisegesis, reading our interpretation into scripture.

Matt