Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

First off, the terms:

Amillennialism - The view that there is no millennium per say
Premillennialism - Christ will return and rule on earth for the millennium
Postmillennialism - The majority of the world will be converted to Christianity and there will be a golden age of peace and prosperity and happiness for Christians called the Millennium. After which, Christ will return.

Many of the brothers and sisters in my Church are Amillennial.
Which means they don't believe in an actual 1000 year reign of Christ after his return. They believe that Revelation 20 is just a recapitulation or a retelling in different terms, what happened in chapter 19. So they believe that we are in the Millennium NOW. That Christ is ruling and reigning from Heaven now and that all who die in Christ go to heaven to rule with him until he returns, and after Armageddon and the final judgment, we will be ushered into the New Heavens and new Earth.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 and Revelation 20 are the only places in the Bible where I can find support for the idea of an actual millennium. My friends say that their understanding is much easier and simpler and the preferred method of interpretation.

Has anyone encountered amillennialism before? Is anyone here amillennial? What evidence is there biblical for premillennialism?

Any thoughts would be helpful.

Hi Matt, :clap:


I would fit into the Amillennialist view, by these standards! :hibye:

To cut a long story short -- I believe Jesus is ruling now.... :thumbsup:

I cant see how it could be any other way. :funnyface:

All three positions would say that yes, Jesus is ruling now in some sense. But in your view Beau, (and did I read right else where you're Preterist?), is the ruling and reigning Jesus is doing now the sum total and reality of his ruling? What I mean is, will there be a time when Jesus will rule in a more complete way, or is this it? I believe in an already/not yet type of pattern in the Bible. We are already saved, but we are not fully saved until the Last Day. We are already raised with Christ, but we are not raised until the Last Day. Satan was defeated at the Cross, but he has yet to be fully defeated in the future. Jesus is ruling now, but he is yet to rule in the millennium.

Thanks for your questions, Matt! :clap:


imo, I believe Jesus is ruling now, and as time goes on his rule becomes progressively more manifest until eventually all memory of this "kosmos" is brought to nothing, and the Kingdom becomes an earth-wide reality....instead of an earth-wide possibility.

I dont have a perfect chronological fit - instead, I base my thoughts on how ive come to understand scripture, and also my own experience with God.


I liken it to a beautiful painting.

A painting doesnt just appear....first the outline is drawn, then gradually detail gets added until finally the intention becomes a vivid reality on canvas.

imo, For 2000 years the Kingdom has been coming, progressively until finally it will reach its glorious prophetic eventuality.

To say its all future, in my mind, denies the authority of Jesus that He rightfully has been given and has been exercising in the lives of believers.

To say its all in the past, denies the true, amazing and powerful wonder that is God's reality, as He promises throughout His Word.


Those who take on Christ, and place their worship towards Him, instead of this "kosmos", become the "coming" (or progression) of the Kingdom, and have a glimpse of the real life that is to come, fully and completely in God's time.....in the not too distant future.

God speaks,
His Word is spoken
The Spirit breathes life,
We are awoken....

To what is to come,
The Dark undone
Light shines the Way,
For Light has won

A brand new Day,
Seen from afar
An Age old promise,
Has now Become

:thumbsup: Give glory to the Son! :thumbsup:

But......I could be wrong....;):funnyface::friends:

WOW! That one's new to me. Have to give that one some thought. Good job at not fitting into any one of the molds though! :thumbsup::drinking: LOL Sometimes labels/terms are helpful in summarizing beliefs, but there are always some who don't quite fit into any mold.

[quote=Mavos]
First off, the terms:

Amillennialism - The view that there is no millennium per say
Premillennialism - Christ will return and rule on earth for the millennium
Postmillennialism - The majority of the world will be converted to Christianity and there will be a golden age of peace and prosperity and happiness for Christians called the Millennium. After which, Christ will return.

Hi Mavos,
You didn't offer an other or undecided choice.:confused:

I have only recently begun to think about the future, Beau's post on preterism interested me to do some reading on different thoughts Christians hold.
I have read "Before Jerusalem Fell " by Gentry & "The Days Of Vengeance" by Chilton. I'm waiting on "Wars of the Jews" to arrive.Spring has finally come , so I want a book to sit outside with. Don't know what I will read next, maybe balance these 3 books with the "Left Behind "series?:rofl:
Seriously, I'm open to sugestions.:help:
I've had some great books recomended by Bethel Boy ( but I don't think he explores this subject) and another poster (who has been very helpful) ,I'm not identified/labeled with more than Christian, I worship at an Independant Christian Church, still trying to figure out what to label them, evangelical (yes),dispensationalists( ?), loving ( definately).

Blithe

Well while we're talking labels.... :whistle:

I am premillennial. I prefer Covenant Theology to Dispensationalism, it makes much more sense. I'm reformed (i.e. Calvinistic) and evangelical, and a credobaptist (i.e. baptize believers).

(It is quite a rare thing for a former JW to believe some these things considering everything that the WT taught.... )


But "I desire to be called nothing but a Christian". If those terms help define what it is exactly I believe the Bible says without me having to explain everything in detail for 5 minutes, then I use them. If a person doesn't know the label or has a misconception as to what the label means (as is often the case with the term Calvinism) I refrain from using them. Labels can be helpful but they can also lead to division. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox as well as the WT Society all would tend to say that it is being under their organization that is the pre-requisite for being a Christian, Protestants would tend to say that it is what a person believes, or thinks, that makes one a Christian. With Protestants, it is whether or not one believes what Jesus said that is the important point, and where one goes to church is of realitvely minor importance. The genius of Protestantism is that you don't need a priesthood or an organization to gain access to God. The reformers all taught a "Priesthood of all believers" with Christ as the Great High Priest.

:detective::thumbup:

Returning to the subject:

There is a good overview of where I generally stand online that you can find here:


http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Last%20..._ladd.html

Is there any evidence or scripture that can be quoted to support the theory that Jesus is ruling?

Colossians 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Without question, Christ doesn't rule over everyone, only those submitting to his rulership today, now in this life. Allowing him to be King over our lives today is what differentiates his sheep from the rest of 'the world'.

Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."

16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." The words 'have overcome' denote past tense - it's already happened - Christ is ruling over us now! (the way I see it)

:2cents: :peace:

I would say Christ is indeed ruling NOW! And has been ever since His resurrection when he sat down at his Fathers right hand.

He will rule untill he fully accomplishes his Fathers will, then he hands the kingdom over to his Father.

Please notice Pauls overview:

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (New American Standard Bible)

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

In verse 25 Paul is directly refering to psalm 110, here he helps us understand that Jesus indeed began ruling right away when he was seated at the Fathers right hand. Thats why Jesus could say "all authority has been given me", as recorded at Matt. 28:18.

Verse 26 shows who the last enemy to be put under his feet is, it is death. Rev. 20:14 indicate that this is done at the very end of the millinium.

Revelation 20:14 (New American Standard Bible)

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire

Although Christ has been ruling since his resurrection, the millinium is a special time when he will have full control. Satan and the demons will be locked away and all the manmade kingdoms will be gone.

Revelation 20:2 (New American Standard Bible)

2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

Also the millinium is the time when Christ will be aided by his Bride.

Revelation 20:4,6 (New American Standard Bible)

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years

So I agree that Jesus has been ruling for over 2000 yrs. but I also believe that the millinium is a literal 1000 yr period, the last phase of his rulership, when he is together with his bride and is fully able to bring to completion his Fathers will.

:heartbeat:

Jayme :read: :2cents:

I think 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 provides a great outline of events:


23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that s God may be all in all.


The first thing to notice is verse 23:

"But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits"

This chapter is obviously talking about the resurrection. The verses 20 and 22 make this clear.

Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection. He is the first to be raised. Christ was raised, therefore we will be raised, because he has defeated death. But when will we be raised?

"Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ."

The word "then" (verse 23) indicates an indeterminate amount of time between Christ's resurrection and his coming. The word "then" as Paul uses it, doesn't mean immediate succession. This is evident from its use in verses 5 and 7. The word is sometimes translated "afterward." It implies an intervening period of time. It talks about the next in an order of specified events but does not mention the issue of time between. Over nineteen hundred years have already elapsed between the resurrection of Christ and His return. I believe that this intervening period is also synonymous with:

a) Times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24 compare Romans 11:25)
b) It is described as "this age" in various places (e.g. Matthew 12:32, Luke 20:34-35, Ephesians 1:21)
c) Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21, compare Luke 21:24)
d) Includes the signs of the times (Matthew 24:5-14; Revelation 6:1-11)
e) The 42 months (Revelation 13:5)


"Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ."What happens after this time?

This period of time, this age, is ended with the Second Coming of Christ (verse 23), along with Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-4, 12-16).

Notice when "those who belong to Christ" are raised, "at his comming". This resurrection includes the rapture (or catching up), and the binding of Satan. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Revelation 20:1-4)

Then comes the end

The word "then" (verse 24) indicates another period of time; what we know from Revelation 20 as 1000 years or millennium. Paul's explanatory "for" in verse 25, tells us the purpose of this intervening time.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Paul's assertion is that after Christ returns "He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet". Christ's reign (at least the full expression of it) is said to follow his return, and it is said to be in order to put down opposition.

After this rule, there is the end.

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power."

Satan is let loose to deceive the nations for a final battle, but is utterly crushed. (Revelation 20:7-10). Death, is defeated (verse 26, Revelation 20:13-14) and the resurrection and judgment of the unbelievers takes place. (Revelation 20:11-15).

"When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that s God may be all in all."

Christ hands the kingdom over to God the Father ("...when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father... "). There are numerous prophecies in the Old Testament, and the new Testament that teach that Christ will return to reign. Amillennialists would disagree that there is a period of time after Christ's coming where Christ reigns, and that he is reigning now. He is indeed reigning now, (Matthew 28:19-20), but indeed the consummation of his reign will happen after his coming. However, if Amillennialism is true, then Christ doesn't reign after his coming, but must immediately hand over the kingdom to God the Father to rule as this text shows, and we are living in the consummation of the rule of Christ now. However, I believe this does too much injustice to this and many other texts to be allowable.

You and I think alike. I believe the kingdom is already here and we are in the foretold last day. Christ is raising up the children of His Kingdom now. We have to be able to hear His voice.

The Last Day 3/19/2010

I was standing in line to see a concert. There were lots of people wearing the concert T Shirts, and on the back of them it read..."The Last Day" was the name of the band playing. I woke up and wrote this down.

They are in line at the concert to sing the new song.

Psalm 40:3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God; Many will see and fear And will trust in the LORD.

They sing the Song Of Mose with the company of the redeemed, it is a song of redemption and vindication.

Resurrection is raising them up out of darkness to Christ's glorious light.

35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day.

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the LAST DAY.” John 6:35-40

Ah, "isms," don't we just love those folks who have reached a conclusion based on something they've read, or on too little Bible reading? Always very dogmatic about something they know very little about!

Revelation 20:1-10 tel;ls us: "Then I saw a messenger come down from heaven with a long chain in his hand, and the key to the abyss; and he grabbed the dragon – the original snake, the Slanderer and Opposer – and chained him up for a thousand years. Then he threw him into the abyss… closing it and locking it up over him, so he couldn’t mislead the nations anymore until the end of the thousand years. But after that, he has to be set free for a little while.

"And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Those who have a part in the first resurrection are blest and holy, because the second death doesn’t have any power over them. For they will be Priests of God and the Anointed One, and they will rule with him for the thousand years."

But, first comes the destruction of "the Great Babylon," the "marriage of the Lamb," and "the Battle of Armageddon" (see Revelation 19). And since the Bible speaks so strongly about the events leading up to and including the 1,000 years, we can conclude that we've already seen all these things happen, and the 1,000 years has already PASSED (or we're in it), right?
:funnyface: