03-25-2010, 12:17 AM
05-04-2010, 02:46 AM
I’ve come to the general practice of attempting to understand Scripture according to the most “natural read†of pertinent passages since the Scriptures were probably written for farmers and fisherman - not rocket scientists. So the premillenial view seems the most natural to me.
While the Scriptures cited at the outset 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20 certainly support a premillenial view there are other factors – that while admittedly less quantifiable Scripturally – being more intuitive and assumptive in nature – none the less merit a fair weighing in on this question.
El Shaddai and the Son are persons that get things done - and the situation here on planet earth is yet one big “undone†loose end that needs wrapping up. So one of the many stock “assumptive†Scriptures in this vein are in *Isaiah - where God is said to not have created the earth for nothing, that it should be inhabited. Also the snow and the rain eco-cycle is cited as proof of how God’s word or direction in systems design here on the earth are placed in motion – and results take place.
From there is no stretch of the facts to extrapolate the Genesis account where the first man and woman were given a Mission – that was never completed. Does the True God have the chops to make his own word come true in the case of his intelligent creation? I think he does, so the only job left to do is figure out “how†– and 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20 provides that information in spades. But I think there are more than just empirical considerations.
Understanding God’s purposes is also helped by an extrapolation of Jesus words in John 17:3. I like the translations that are worded “knowing God and the one whom he sent forth†is what leads to everlasting life – in other words when we “know†someone as persons it becomes possible to guess – extrapolate - fairly close to how they might feel or think on issues. An example is a family member you know well – where it becomes possible to guess with a high degree of accuracy how that person would react to say a certain gift or to a practical joke. “Hmmm, I don’t think they are going to like that joke played on them…†Or, “Yes, they are really going to like that gift!â€. So in my opinion “knowing God†involves as much intuition as it does hard facts. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m looking forward to see how close I get (assuming I’m there etc) to reality when the eventual realities - whatever and whenever those prove to be - unfold in the future.
So getting back to the premillenial discussion, it seems perfectly logical to me that Jesus does as Revelation says – he returns, he deals with the bad guys and their bad system they’ve setup, and then makes it so the good guys can start restoring the planet to Genesis design specifications without resistance. Why 1,000 years? Ask: How long would it take to undo the mess of many thousands of years (evidently way more than 6,000 years according to a recent piece I read on Genesis, that the “generations†of lifespans listed are not consecutive and cannot be used for chronological end to end time calculations). So to accomplish the rebuilding of an entire planet should take a while. And when everything is back online post Satan’s final gambit, the Son turns everything back to the Father. In my view, it’s a definite no brainer.
v r
18 * For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. (Isaiah 45:18)
9 * “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts. 10 For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it. (Isaiah 55:9-11)
While the Scriptures cited at the outset 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20 certainly support a premillenial view there are other factors – that while admittedly less quantifiable Scripturally – being more intuitive and assumptive in nature – none the less merit a fair weighing in on this question.
El Shaddai and the Son are persons that get things done - and the situation here on planet earth is yet one big “undone†loose end that needs wrapping up. So one of the many stock “assumptive†Scriptures in this vein are in *Isaiah - where God is said to not have created the earth for nothing, that it should be inhabited. Also the snow and the rain eco-cycle is cited as proof of how God’s word or direction in systems design here on the earth are placed in motion – and results take place.
From there is no stretch of the facts to extrapolate the Genesis account where the first man and woman were given a Mission – that was never completed. Does the True God have the chops to make his own word come true in the case of his intelligent creation? I think he does, so the only job left to do is figure out “how†– and 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 20 provides that information in spades. But I think there are more than just empirical considerations.
Understanding God’s purposes is also helped by an extrapolation of Jesus words in John 17:3. I like the translations that are worded “knowing God and the one whom he sent forth†is what leads to everlasting life – in other words when we “know†someone as persons it becomes possible to guess – extrapolate - fairly close to how they might feel or think on issues. An example is a family member you know well – where it becomes possible to guess with a high degree of accuracy how that person would react to say a certain gift or to a practical joke. “Hmmm, I don’t think they are going to like that joke played on them…†Or, “Yes, they are really going to like that gift!â€. So in my opinion “knowing God†involves as much intuition as it does hard facts. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m looking forward to see how close I get (assuming I’m there etc) to reality when the eventual realities - whatever and whenever those prove to be - unfold in the future.
So getting back to the premillenial discussion, it seems perfectly logical to me that Jesus does as Revelation says – he returns, he deals with the bad guys and their bad system they’ve setup, and then makes it so the good guys can start restoring the planet to Genesis design specifications without resistance. Why 1,000 years? Ask: How long would it take to undo the mess of many thousands of years (evidently way more than 6,000 years according to a recent piece I read on Genesis, that the “generations†of lifespans listed are not consecutive and cannot be used for chronological end to end time calculations). So to accomplish the rebuilding of an entire planet should take a while. And when everything is back online post Satan’s final gambit, the Son turns everything back to the Father. In my view, it’s a definite no brainer.
v r
18 * For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. (Isaiah 45:18)
9 * “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts. 10 For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it. (Isaiah 55:9-11)
05-04-2010, 10:08 AM
My biggest problem with the literal Millennium would come from Chapter 21.
Before I show why that chapter is a problem, some ground work has to be laid. In Greek ἀπάντησις (Apantésis) means to meet one, and carries the idea of escorting a person back. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is what is commonly called "the rapture" from the Latin rapio, a translation of the Greek á¼Ïπάζω (harpazÅ), meaning to catch up.
The idea is that we will be caught up (á¼Ïπάζω), (and changed as per 1 Cor. 15:51-52), to meet and escort (ἀπάντησις) Jesus to earth at his second coming.
Revelation 19 depicts this with the imagery of the Church on horses behind Jesus as he returns to the Earth.
When we come to chapter 20, the Church is said to be reigning for 1000 years. There is a theme throughout the Old Testament prophets that the Lord, Jehovah, (which in this case I take as a reference to Jesus), will reign from Jerusalem over the Earth and the nations will bring him tribute.
When we come to chapter 21, we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. Verse 2 says that it is, "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". In verse 9 the angel says, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." Clearly then, this isn't meant to be taken as a literal city, but as the Bride of Christ, as the angel describes. Paul likens the entire Church to the wife of Christ in Ephesians 5:25-26. Verses 12 and 14 of Revelation 21 seem to make sense with the statement that the Church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 2:19-20 ) The jewels and glory of the city would seem to be the same as what Paul says, "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish". (Ephesians 5:27 and compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11-12).
All of this to say that in Chapter 21 verse 2 says that the Church is "coming down out of heaven". Verse 1 clearly puts this in the time frame of "a new heaven and a new earth". The problem arises, why is the Church coming down out of heaven, if they have been reigning on Earth with Christ for 1000 years? The Amillennial interpretation here seems to fit the best. This then would be just another picture of the second coming. This would be a recapitulation of Chapter 19, albeit from a different angle and emphasis, this time on the Church instead of the victorious Christ. This would mean that the New Heavens and the New Earth are inaugurated after the second coming and not after a millennium. Chapter 20 then would also be a retelling, or recapitulation of this same theme from a different angle. The battle in 19 and in 20 would be describing the same event, but from a different angle.
But that's my major problem with the premillenial understanding.
Thoughts?
Matt
Before I show why that chapter is a problem, some ground work has to be laid. In Greek ἀπάντησις (Apantésis) means to meet one, and carries the idea of escorting a person back. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is what is commonly called "the rapture" from the Latin rapio, a translation of the Greek á¼Ïπάζω (harpazÅ), meaning to catch up.
The idea is that we will be caught up (á¼Ïπάζω), (and changed as per 1 Cor. 15:51-52), to meet and escort (ἀπάντησις) Jesus to earth at his second coming.
Revelation 19 depicts this with the imagery of the Church on horses behind Jesus as he returns to the Earth.
When we come to chapter 20, the Church is said to be reigning for 1000 years. There is a theme throughout the Old Testament prophets that the Lord, Jehovah, (which in this case I take as a reference to Jesus), will reign from Jerusalem over the Earth and the nations will bring him tribute.
When we come to chapter 21, we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. Verse 2 says that it is, "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". In verse 9 the angel says, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." Clearly then, this isn't meant to be taken as a literal city, but as the Bride of Christ, as the angel describes. Paul likens the entire Church to the wife of Christ in Ephesians 5:25-26. Verses 12 and 14 of Revelation 21 seem to make sense with the statement that the Church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 2:19-20 ) The jewels and glory of the city would seem to be the same as what Paul says, "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish". (Ephesians 5:27 and compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11-12).
All of this to say that in Chapter 21 verse 2 says that the Church is "coming down out of heaven". Verse 1 clearly puts this in the time frame of "a new heaven and a new earth". The problem arises, why is the Church coming down out of heaven, if they have been reigning on Earth with Christ for 1000 years? The Amillennial interpretation here seems to fit the best. This then would be just another picture of the second coming. This would be a recapitulation of Chapter 19, albeit from a different angle and emphasis, this time on the Church instead of the victorious Christ. This would mean that the New Heavens and the New Earth are inaugurated after the second coming and not after a millennium. Chapter 20 then would also be a retelling, or recapitulation of this same theme from a different angle. The battle in 19 and in 20 would be describing the same event, but from a different angle.
But that's my major problem with the premillenial understanding.
Thoughts?
Matt
05-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Hi guys...
VR: The JW's taught us that the whole world has to be cleaned up and everything has to be a paradise by the end of the thousand years. But really this doesn't have to be the case at all. All we know about the 1,000 years is that Satan is not allowed to decieve during this time. That's it. The time after the 1,000 years is when the nations are healed as Rev. 22 says. So the 1,000 years doesn't actually have to be 1,000 literal years. It could be like a watch as Ps. 90 says. 3 1/2 years fits in the puzzle much better IMO..
Mavos: You raised the question of why the bride would be coming down from heaven when the 1,000 years are over as in Rev. 21. I think this is a parallel scripture to Rev. 4 when the 24 elders take off their crowns and lay them before God. Another words, the bride coming down from heaven is the same as Jesus handing back the kingdom to the father after he has brought all enemies to naught. I think chap. 20 is the period leading up to the new earth and chap. 21 is the period after the new earth begins. So there not being parallel scriptures. So I disagree with the order you presented..
thoughts?
05-05-2010, 12:50 AM
I am a " pretrib guy " (Premillennialism).
My reasoning is summed up by John MacArthur in his recent book
" Because the time is near " ( I didn't form my opinion in any way from reading the book in fact I didn't know his stance until I read it )
My reasoning is summed up by John MacArthur in his recent book
" Because the time is near " ( I didn't form my opinion in any way from reading the book in fact I didn't know his stance until I read it )
JohnMacarthur Wrote:
The futurist sees Chapter 4-22 as predictions of people and events yet to come in the future.Only this approach allows Revelation to be interpreted following the same literal method used throughout the rest of Scripture.
The other 3 approaches (preterist,historicist,idealist ) are frequently forced to resort to allegorizing or spiritualizing the text to sustain their interpretations.
The futurist approach provides justice to Revelation's claim as prophecy.Other approaches leave the meaning of Revelation to human opinion.The futurist takes the book's meaning of as God gave it.We take a straightforward view,accepting what the words say.
The other 3 approaches (preterist,historicist,idealist ) are frequently forced to resort to allegorizing or spiritualizing the text to sustain their interpretations.
The futurist approach provides justice to Revelation's claim as prophecy.Other approaches leave the meaning of Revelation to human opinion.The futurist takes the book's meaning of as God gave it.We take a straightforward view,accepting what the words say.
So a layout of Revelation would be
Rev 1-3 the church on Earth
Rev 4-5 & ( 19:1-10) The church in Heaven ( Judgement seat of Christ and marriage supper of the lamb )
Rev 6-18 ( church in Heaven, Great trib on Earth )
Rev 19:11-21 the second coming of Christ to Earth
Rev 20:1-6 Millennial Kingdom
Rev 20:7-15 Final rebellion & Judgement
Rev 21-22 Eternal State
One of my main thoughts is that the reason for the Tribulation period, also known as " The Day of Jacob's Trouble " is to turn the hardened hearts of the Jewish people to see the one whom they pierced.
Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.
Rev 1: 7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him;( Not the Romans ) and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
Zech 12:They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Acts 2:22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
So the 144,000 get to be exactly what the Scripture says they are 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. (Jewish male virgins ) ( Literal 144,000 Jewish male virgins ) You can interpret 144,000 as "literal" and "Jewish male virgins as figurative in the same passage )
There are hours of things that could be said but that's a start.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
05-05-2010, 04:00 PM
Hi BB.. I don't think the reference to 144,000 being Jews is literal.. only spiritual..
In Rom. 11, Paul said God didn't reject the Isrealites.. I would say this is individually only.. As a system, it has been rejected.. Yet on Christ's 2nd coming, he gathers openhearted Jewish ones along with people of all nations.. to himself..
05-06-2010, 12:09 AM
Hi NT, Have a good read of Rom 11 again and also remember that Israel has left God behind many times in the OT but over and over again God NEVER totally abandoned them.
After all they are the Branch that Gentiles have been grafted into.
Let me ask did God ever ask Hosea to abandon Gomer?
( From Biblegateway headers are theirs )
Romans 11
Israel’s Rejection Not Total ( Biblegateway )
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Paul says I am a Jew and I am telling you God has not cast away His people )
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life�
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.â€
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace( The Jewish people who are currently part of the Body of Christ ). 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.â€
9 And David says:
“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.â€
Israel’s Rejection Not Final ( Biblegateway )
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy,
( Salvation for the Gentiles "Purpose" = to provoke "them" ( Israel ) to jealousy )
salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
( We currently live in a period known as " the Time of the Gentiles " still to come is " The Day of Jacobs trouble " when Israel will as a nation will turn back to God.)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.†20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved( all the Jewish people who are saved out of the Tribulation ), as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.â€
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?â€
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?â€
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
Hi BB.. I don't think the reference to 144,000 being Jews is literal.. only spiritual..
In Rom. 11, Paul said God didn't reject the Isrealites.. I would say this is individually only.. As a system, it has been rejected.. Yet on Christ's 2nd coming, he gathers openhearted Jewish ones along with people of all nations.. to himself..
After all they are the Branch that Gentiles have been grafted into.
Let me ask did God ever ask Hosea to abandon Gomer?
( From Biblegateway headers are theirs )
Romans 11
Israel’s Rejection Not Total ( Biblegateway )
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (Paul says I am a Jew and I am telling you God has not cast away His people )
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life�
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.â€
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace( The Jewish people who are currently part of the Body of Christ ). 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:
“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.â€
9 And David says:
“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.â€
Israel’s Rejection Not Final ( Biblegateway )
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy,
( Salvation for the Gentiles "Purpose" = to provoke "them" ( Israel ) to jealousy )
salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
( We currently live in a period known as " the Time of the Gentiles " still to come is " The Day of Jacobs trouble " when Israel will as a nation will turn back to God.)
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.†20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved( all the Jewish people who are saved out of the Tribulation ), as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.â€
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?â€
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?â€
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
NewTruth Wrote:
Hi BB.. I don't think the reference to 144,000 being Jews is literal.. only spiritual..
In Rom. 11, Paul said God didn't reject the Isrealites.. I would say this is individually only.. As a system, it has been rejected.. Yet on Christ's 2nd coming, he gathers openhearted Jewish ones along with people of all nations.. to himself..
05-06-2010, 12:21 AM
BB.. what I believe is that the Christ will have a 2nd presence as he did the 1st time.. as a man.. and will gather ones to him and also many will turn away from him.. a division. The message of the new Christ will be a message of the kingdom, in such a way that it will be attractive to the natural Jews. (Thus the scripture, How much easier for the natural branch to be grafted into the vine?) So Christ @ the time of his presence will draw many natural Jews to himself, but also gentiles.. and ones of all religions, tribes and tongues. In Rev. 5, it appears that the anointed will be of every tribe nation and tongue. I read what you wrote carefully. Thanks for the comments.. any comments are welcome.. and ideas..
05-09-2010, 11:23 PM
Hi NT, When it comes to Rev. 5 what we have is " The church " or "The Body of Christ" or "The Bride of Christ" and they are in Heaven.
To belong to this group of Jews and Gentiles one must have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. ( This is the anointing they must have )
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you
Rev 4-5 is a picture of a future event where all the believers who from the time of Christ's ascention until His return in the air ( 1 Thess 4 ) along with OT believers praise and worship the Father and the Son.
Chapter 5 opens with a the deed to the Earth and only Christ being able to open it.
( this huge group will worship the Father and the Son ( in Ch 4 they cast their crown at Jesus feet )
Rev 5:11b
the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!â€
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!†And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Following this begins " The day of Jacobs trouble " when the Wrath of God will fall on mankind on the Earth during this time many some of the Jewish people will see the error of what they have done ( killed the Messiah ) and they will be used to bring people to Christ.
Rev 7 many die and join the others from Chapter 5
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?â€
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.â€
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
At the End of Chapter 19 " The Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire " Thus ends the Great Tribulation and now begins " The Millennium " with the Return of Christ physically to the Earth with His saints who physically ( 1st resurrection ) to rule for 1000yrs. There is a final rebellion at the end and all unbelievers face the final Judgement and penalty. Rev 21 begins the Eternal state in the new world in which righteousness dwells.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
BB.. what I believe is that the Christ will have a 2nd presence as he did the 1st time.. as a man.. and will gather ones to him and also many will turn away from him.. a division. The message of the new Christ will be a message of the kingdom, in such a way that it will be attractive to the natural Jews. (Thus the scripture, How much easier for the natural branch to be grafted into the vine?) So Christ @ the time of his presence will draw many natural Jews to himself, but also gentiles.. and ones of all religions, tribes and tongues. In Rev. 5, it appears that the anointed will be of every tribe nation and tongue. I read what you wrote carefully. Thanks for the comments.. any comments are welcome.. and ideas..
To belong to this group of Jews and Gentiles one must have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. ( This is the anointing they must have )
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you
Rev 4-5 is a picture of a future event where all the believers who from the time of Christ's ascention until His return in the air ( 1 Thess 4 ) along with OT believers praise and worship the Father and the Son.
Chapter 5 opens with a the deed to the Earth and only Christ being able to open it.
( this huge group will worship the Father and the Son ( in Ch 4 they cast their crown at Jesus feet )
Rev 5:11b
the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!â€
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!†And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
Following this begins " The day of Jacobs trouble " when the Wrath of God will fall on mankind on the Earth during this time many some of the Jewish people will see the error of what they have done ( killed the Messiah ) and they will be used to bring people to Christ.
Rev 7 many die and join the others from Chapter 5
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?â€
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.â€
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
At the End of Chapter 19 " The Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire " Thus ends the Great Tribulation and now begins " The Millennium " with the Return of Christ physically to the Earth with His saints who physically ( 1st resurrection ) to rule for 1000yrs. There is a final rebellion at the end and all unbelievers face the final Judgement and penalty. Rev 21 begins the Eternal state in the new world in which righteousness dwells.
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:
NewTruth Wrote:
BB.. what I believe is that the Christ will have a 2nd presence as he did the 1st time.. as a man.. and will gather ones to him and also many will turn away from him.. a division. The message of the new Christ will be a message of the kingdom, in such a way that it will be attractive to the natural Jews. (Thus the scripture, How much easier for the natural branch to be grafted into the vine?) So Christ @ the time of his presence will draw many natural Jews to himself, but also gentiles.. and ones of all religions, tribes and tongues. In Rev. 5, it appears that the anointed will be of every tribe nation and tongue. I read what you wrote carefully. Thanks for the comments.. any comments are welcome.. and ideas..