Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Res,

Yes, the puzzle does seem to come together better with collaboration rather than in isolation.

That's why I like to participate on this forum. Every part of the body is necessary.

I am glad JWHVACR started this thread. It has proved to be very interesting and helpfull to see what others are thinking.

The temple scriptures in Ezekiel also mention many dining rooms.

Do you think that one of those might contain THE "table" where Jesus Christ and the 12 judges sit?

that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom Luke 22:28-30

Is it possible to ascertain which dining room that might be in?



In Christ

abe

Yes. :D

But this really depends on how you view the entire passage regarding this Temple that is described from Ezekiel 40 onwards.

Personally, I feel the explicit detail in this passage can lead us to only one conclusion... that it is describing a literal Temple.

I appreciate that is difficult for many Christians to accept. After all, what need is there for yet another Temple, when the second Temple was destroyed, and what's more, Christians form "the temple of God", and Jesus' body is a Temple?

The trick is to resolve both the spiritual and the physical. For example, we know there is a "Jerusalem above"... but we are also explicitly told in Revelation that Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

The question is, Where does it reside, when it comes down out of heaven?

Here's the beautiful way to resolve the spiritual and the physical... it resides in the place of literal Jerusalem!

Throughout a large part of history, Jerusalem has been known as "the city of God". Scripture indicates that it will again be viewed as God's city - see scriptures like Zechariah 14, for example.

So OT scriptures are describing the PHYSICAL reality of that future city, with yet another Temple... but this time, with healing waters for the nations, and God's blessing over it.

Revelation describes the SPIRITUAL, symbolic reality of that city... which is why, spiritually speaking, it doesn't have a temple... but it also doesn't have the Sun. It is a spiritual, symbolic picture of the literal city - which will, of course, have the Sun physically speaking... unless we really believe God will abolish the thing He created to shine upon the planet.

So I don't think we need to stretch our brains with Ezekiel 40 onwards and ask what it means spiritually, because the amount of physical data given implies it is meant to be fulfilled PHYSICALLY.

Why would God want yet another physical Temple? As a focal point, once again, for the nations. How else is Satan going to gather his forces, at the end of the 1,000 years, to surround the city? Jerusalem IS going to bear God's name again in the future.

That's the way I see it, anyway... so I take the passage you quoted to literally mean what it says :D

My gut reaction is that is unlikely. But on the other hand, the entire layout of Jerusalem as it is described to EzekiEl seems to be of a literal place. So, who knows?

Also notice that the "anointed" priests are described in the Greek text as "Israel's GUIDES." So, the indication is that these "anointed" are appointed as leaders and guides of God's people... and woe to them if they mislead or prophecy falsely!

Throughout my life I've known those who claimed to be "the anointed." And the WTS now says that no one should listen to the direction of those who claim to have been anointed (strange). However, it always surprises me to see how many of those who claim an anointing also make dogmatic statements and argue doctrine based on too little scriptural proof; and I wonder if they realize the consequences of misleading... speaking when Jehovah hasn't spoken. It's a fearsome thing!

Interpretum,

I get a chance to agree with you here.

Yes, I also think that when the temple comes down out of heaven it will indeed become an earthly place.

A place where all the nations of the earth must come to give Jehovah his due.

Ezekiel also mentions tracts of land and lots being cast.

There is good scriptural reason to believe that this land will be the same land promised to Jacob when he fell asleep.

Is the house more important than the people it contains?

Those people, the living stones will be an important and essential part of the temple.

At the present time I believe the Christian Temple does indeed consist of just those people.

This temple has been profaned and the iniquities mentioned throughout the temple scriptures in Ezekiel have very much to do with that Christian Temple as it exists immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

I also believe that once the anointed are sealed they will not have played a part in the profaning of this Christian Temple and will be included in Jesus Christs promised re-creation.

These sealed ones will have endured a very painful experience seeing their temple profaned and the iniquities manifested.

They will have; "kept on the watch".

Isaiah 66:6
There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies. 7 Before she began to come into labor pains she gave birth. Before birth pangs could come to her, she even gave deliverance to a male child. 8 Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.

The scriptures seem to answer that question I asked.

The people in the building are more important than the building itself!

Is it the temple that gives glory to the people or is it the people who give glory to the temple?

Haggai 2:7-9
7 “‘And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ Jehovah of armies has said.
8 “‘The silver is mine, and the gold is mine,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies.
9 “‘Greater will the glory of this later house become than [that of] the former,’ Jehovah of armies has said.


In Christ


abe

Just out of interest, why does your gut reaction tell you that? What would you attribute that to?

Our WTS conditioning has certainly trained us to view just about everything related to Christians as having a "spiritual" meaning, but if you think about it, most of the world do not have this "training"... almost certainly they will need something physical as a focal point, at least initially.

Besides, certain scriptures such as Zechariah 14 are difficult to explain unless it is talking about the real Mount of Olives, near Jerusalem. Admittedly the passage is somewhat surreal, but I imagine God coming back, placing his feet upon the Mount of Olives, and causing the valley to split, is going to be an interesting spectacle, to say the least :D

Yes, I think 10 chapters of intricate planning seems to suggest very strongly that we are talking about a structure meant to be built. But I appreciate we have been conditioned to see the "spiritual" in everything.

Weren't the ancient priests viewed as "anointed"? Could it simply be that God restores an actual priesthood again, at least during the 1,000 year reign?

I admit, to my Christian training that sounds strange, but could it be conceivable that such a Temple might be needed, at least temporarily?

Incidentally, keep in mind that regardless of our own personal viewpoints, some Jews are actually planning to build this thing as we speak! It may yet take several years to come to fruition, but let's face it, the blueprint IS there in the Bible, regardless of how we interpret it.. so I guess it's only a matter of time before the Jews actually DO build it.

It's like mountain climbers saying the reason they climb mountains is because it's there! Well, the blueprint for a Third Temple is there in the Bible, so I see it as simply a matter of time before the Jews build it.

The interesting question then will be... will that BE the foretold Third Temple, or not? :confused:

Abe, let's see how close I come to your understanding of this event.

The twelve apostles whose names are on the foundation of the wall of the New Jerusalem probably had witness borne to them that they were anointed. It's possible that for others in Christ's body they are aware of the heavenly invitation at the time of their being 'born from above'. We have the example of Paul who sought the higher calling. So, I've wondered for awhile just what that higher calling is. After all, Paul was already saved by grace. But here's what he said at Philippians 3:10-14:

".....so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus."

Submitting himself to a death like Christ's seems to have been Paul's goal. A martyr's death may have been (and may still be) the requisite for the higher calling. It may have had a bearing on the scripture in Revelation 6:9-11:

"And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."

The altar is mentioned again here:

"And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it." -- Revelation 11:1

My question is, is the altar (of sacrifice) in Revelation connected to Christian martyrdom? Are those who submitted to a death like Christ's the ones referred to as, "the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have."?

...and, are the ones that John was told to measure, "the number [that] was [to be] filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been." as worshiping "in the altar"?

That last thought was phrased poorly:P I just hope it is understandable.

To sum that idea up: Are those chosen out of the tribes of Israel (144,000) those that either "have been martyred" or "will shortly be martyred"? If they were associated with the altar this could make sense. And Paul's quest for the "higher calling" would also fit the bill.

So, at a divinely-appointed time, the four winds of heaven are held back until the sealing of these martyrs (past and future) takes place. As far as I can see, this would mean that the hearts of certain Christians are fully prepared to suffer as Christ did. The time for the "prophesying in sackcloth" is at hand.

Abe, you said:

Personally, at this time, I don't see that we can determine when these anointed and chosen ones are sealed by events and calamities seen by all. Here are my reasons:

The angels are told not to harm the earth, sea or trees until these ones are sealed.

Peter speaks of the judgment as "starting with the house of God".

"But if [he suffers] as a Christian, let him not feel shame, but let him keep on glorifying God in this name. For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God? “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?" -- 1 Peter 4:16-18

In the first century and down through history there were those proving to be "big trees of righteousness." There were others for whom the ax was laying at the roots. As Jesus said:

"Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." -- Matthew 3:10

Here's how I picture it happening:

The 144,000 are sealed. Then the divine tempest descends on the heads of the worthless "trees", and the howling starts.

“Howl, YOU shepherds, and cry out! And wallow about, YOU majestic ones of the flock, because YOUR days for slaughtering and for YOUR scatterings have been fulfilled, and YOU must fall like a desirable vessel! And a place to flee to has perished from the shepherds, and a means of escape from the majestic ones of the flock. Listen! The outcry of the shepherds, and the howling of the majestic ones of the flock, for Jehovah is despoiling their pasturage." -- Jeremiah 25:34-36 (see also Ezekiel 34:1-10)

I'm thinking that those altar-bound ones, following the Lamb wherever he goes, recognize the cutting down of the worthless trees as the signal to begin the prophesying in sackcloth. They will no doubt have a witness within them selves that it is time.

I can't even imagine what it will be like to be a part of this work but I'm convinced that it will come about as the beginning of tribulation. Will I live to see it? I don't know....but I hope so.

love,
Rez (sleepy virgin trying to keep her oil-jug filled)

Rez,

I think I understand what you are saying.

The prophesying in sack cloth has very much to do with the temple, altar and those worshipping in it being measured.

If it has been measured was it in good standing or had the temple been profaned and the worship now in vain?

If the temple was in good standing then why prophecy in sackcloth?

The Apostle Paul already explained what the condition of the temple would be and those worshipping in it immediately before Jesus Christ retruns. This can be found in 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2.

If the man of lawlessness has been revealed then the temple measurement has already been completed.

Now is the time to prophecy in sack cloth.

Who though is the audience?

Is it those who profaned the temple and the ones who continue to worship in it?

When they hear the witness of those who are prophecying will it torment them?

Will they want to kill the ones who torment them by bringing their iniquities to their attention?

What about when their witnessing is finished.

Is that when they are sealed?

Once their witnessing is finished does it really matter what happens afterwards, even if they are killed?

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with [the] Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

If the audience for the prophets in sack cloth are those "trees" who profane the temple.

The "big trees of righteousness" will be killed by their own Christian brothers.

Revelation 11
8 And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod´om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled.

After that the axe really will be at the foot of those trees who profaned the temple and the people who continue to live in the city.

Revelation 11
And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven.

All this starts with the measurement of the temple.

I believe the sealing happens when the witnessing is finished.

The windstorm is then released and goes from nation to nation.

The temple is then judged.

I therefore expect to see in the imminent future a very great earthquake.

Isaiah 6:66
There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.

Followed soon after by the judging of the nations.

I believe the measurement of the temple and prophesying in sackcloth is an earlier event which may already be accomplished if the present calamities I see hapening around the earth is the windstorm.

I do not think this windstorm is the judging of the nations, I believe it may be the great tribulation which Jesus Christ mentioned would occur in the last times.

So I think my understanding does depart somewhat from your post above.



In Christ

abe