Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I have been watching a series on the search for Jesus tomb.

And I have a few questions?
These are common to my sense bu maybe not so common to others.

1) Christians believe he was raised in the Flesh. YES / NO
2) Jews that do not accept him as Christ / messiah are looking for proof.
3) Jesus whole Ministry was to free mankind from the ravages of death? and all that comes with haveing no hope.
4) Jesus was Killed by the sixth world power? Also he was Kiled on the wsixth day of the week? only one peice is missing for number of the beast. 6 power 6th day is this a coicedence?

Now some observations about people.
Many walk around with a saying where I live that goes.
"we only live once"
many christians follow up with then we die and goto heaven.

I cannot and have never belived this. If our Lord was raised from the dead he was not raised a spirit was he? we could all make the claim to be super natural if this were so!!!
The whole point of being witness to JESUS is that he in fact did RISE in the flesh..
Many say he rules in spirit! Many say he is in heaven as a spirit.

I say you have to nullify him being raised in the flesh if his is a spirit only. so he was flesh/ died / raised up / striped of flesh again?
nope sorry doesn't make sense to me.
it might as well be the water / wine water / wine joke.
IF he was raised in the flesh why would anyone who claims to be a christian look for his tomb?

HE was RAISED in the flesh! he doesn't have a tomb. He is currently alive and well.

however if the jews who cannot accept him as the messiah . can blind enough minds to believe that a tomb has been found it leaves plenty of Room for a "NEW" messiah to show up on the scene.

This end of the world fear shows the real lack of faith the whole world has. including all religions. Jesus Proved "IF you believe" that he was raised and so can we be raised along with him.
I fear life not death. this world is brutal. yet blindness prevails.
The spirit of the air has made the release from this brutality more fearfull then living in it.
IT baffles me.

2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

"For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit. -- 1 Peter 3:18, The Amplified Bible.

[Helpful reference: Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon.]

Me being a simple guy, Frank, I need to take questions and propositions one at a time. If we can reason together and come to agreement together on this one, then we can use that answer as the basis to consider a second question. And, we can continue to repeat that process as often as needed. :thumbup:

I will add this one additional thought: As spirit beings have done before and since Jesus' death as a man of flesh, once he was raised as a spirit being, he then had the full capability to materialize bodies of flesh as he saw fit. And He did. Different materialized bodies on different occasions to suit the circumstances. :ok:

thanks for the response ISO.

not to be a pain but I think the script you qouted is abit misleading.

I prefer this one.
1 Corinthians 15:45
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

granted it could be a slant based on my belief.. :funnyface:

now to address his body
Genesis 2:23
The man said," This is now bone of my bones,And flesh of my flesh;She shall be called Woman,Because she was taken out of Man."

Job 2:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)

4Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5"(A)However, put forth Your hand now, and (B)touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
6So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Luke 24:39
" See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

So I see it this way. we either believe this EYE witness or we do not.

Bone and flesh seems not to be a question for the first christians from what I have read.
Thomas was the a doubter for our benifit I dare say.

Jesus even said to one person that they should not hold onto him for he had not ascended yet.
WHY?
I agree that ? materialize/or dematerilze is an option.
But if he could just do that what is it that she somehow could stop him from ascending?
or it is a symbolic statement? I don't know.
If he trully dematerialized why "get caught up in the clouds"
why not just poof. here one minute gone the next?
why the rizing above the surface of the ground? in plain view of those eye witnesses?
why the statement that he would "return" in the same exact manner?
if we allow the "spirit" realm view we have what I consider to be part of Satans semi perfect plan. he is so good at taking things out of context that we naturally do so also.

acr1: 8but you will receive power (A)when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be (B)My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and ©Samaria, and even to (D)the remotest part of the earth."
9And after He had said these things, (E)He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, (F)two men in white clothing stood beside them.

Luke 21:27
" Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

1cor:10 1For (A)I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all (B)under the cloud and all ©passed through the sea;
2and all were (D)baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3and all (E)ate the same spiritual food;

So I think the Spirit of a man has nothing to do with the flesh.
Jesus had to WIN in the flesh.. He had to overcome the flesh!!
He had to be raised in the FLESH!!

All of Creation awaits whom? For those who are in the FLesh to be revealed for who they trully are.
It is the fleshly eye's that are decieved and it will be the lifting of the blinders or the spirit of delusion that will be removed as far as I can tell.

The promise is to Fleshly creatures and about fleshly creatures.
All the spirit creatures will be Judged by Fleshly creatures. that is the rub. they couldn't keep their position without the "Pull" that the flesh has. they proved they were not able to be Like GOD. Selfless!!
Jesus while in the Flesh Proved to be the exact image of our heavenly father.
A completely selfless creature. While in the flesh also as he was in his spirit as it was his strength in spirit that allowed is flesh to come under his control.
He is a life giving spirit because of his spiritual strength not because he can resurect us..
His character was flawless not his flesh. His flesh was most likely the worst flesh suit you could get. To make sure no other could make any claim of special treatment.
ISA 52: shows this..
He not only was a little lower then the angels he was most likely the bottom of the totem pole of mankind at the time. he was afflicted I think the scripts say.
IT took some special people I think to look past his outward appearance.

Sorry to ramble.. and make no sense

Dear TM, my "other?"

Good question, and I don't know where you're heading with this.

The Greek word "anastasia" means "to stand (on your feet) once again." So, by definition, it indicates that he was raised again as a human. Understand that mine isn't a conclusion (see below), but a discussion of the meanings of Bible words.

JWs strongly argue that he was raised as a spirit (gr. pneuma, "wind" or "breath"). However, they assume that he was resurrected into heaven, when he was really resurrected on this earth, and then TAKEN to heaven. The fact that the body was gone indicates this.

To buy into the JW belief, you also have to buy into the many steps (some of which may be wrong) that are needed to get you there... e.g. "Jesus was resurrected to heaven as a spirit, and materialized bodies for his Apostles."

What I suspect, from what is written in many scriptures (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 as an example), is that the future holds a closer relationship between the two states for those who are found faithful... that and $1 might buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds.

Headed?

no heading.. my ship has yet to sail.. I am still just wandering around picking up stones.

I think the way we word things and the way they are conveyed has allot to do with the conclusions we as humans draw.

I find the more convoluted the more confusing. I think our adversary has been keeping things just the way he wants them because we get confused so easily and when we find one thing that proves true we grab onto it and start running and jumping to many false conclusions.

If we can reasonably come to the conclusion that he is not "a spirit"
or formless. that he indeed has access to a body that he earned from his death and resurrection. we can in fact debunk many religions if not all of them.

here are a few
The idea that he can only be seen with spiritual eye at his return.
That he is in fact GOD almighty.
he was just a prophet.
HE is an angel. or ever was?

IN fact I remeber the conclusion drawn by some that he can never have a body again because he gave it up.
When in fact he gave it up only to take up real flesh and bone. which is better then what we have apparently.

Something I find most interesting is. Jesus went away to prepare a place for us.
Well many have been under the impression that this place is “NON” physical.
I think mostly because people don’t think about it. Or because many are taught they go to heaven. Heaven being a non physical place.
So By taking away or glossing over the PHYSICAL resurrection error and speculation can go in any direction they want because we have no concrete starting point.
Basically it gives Satan freedom to recreate the whole scene. And paint the picture anyway he wants us to perceive it.

But if we bring it back to the beginning we are being redeemed are we not?
For what purpose? Did God create the physical just to have testing ground to prove that A spirit cannot inhabit a body without being enticed by it’s cravings. That the spirit of a man is just to weak?
That does not seem like the heavenly father I have come to know.

The tangible apparently adds something to our existence otherwise why build it?
Even the angels were drawn to the tangible the physical things that were built.
GOD created and Said it “was GOOD” Why redeem his Son to deny him from the GOOD? IF he is the First fruit it makes sense to me that he is to partake of the wonderful things that were created.
Why cook dinner to just throw it out? Why grow our favorite fruits to cast them in the fire?

So my babbling brings me to the basic point that we need to get on the right path to find real truth. And we are in a world full of so many diversions.
It makes perfect sense why we are told to “SEEK FIRST the Kingdom” we are lied to from the very first breath we take.

HeyTD :wave:

I think this contains the assumption that spirit bodies are "formless". "Disembodied" is the word that's often used. (unless I misunderstood you)

Here is my view of the events around Jesus' resurrection and ascension. I'm still looking at other possibilities though, but my present one makes sense to me.....for whatever that's worth.:D Here goes.

Just before Jesus was impaled, his flesh was ripped to shreds by scourging. That might well be what Isaiah 53:3-7 was talking about:

"He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one. He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth."

I'm thinking that this scourged body was put to death. Jesus called out to his Father: "into your hands I entrust my spirit". Can the spirit function without a body? Either a fleshly or a spirit body? I doubt that.

"If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. (Father, why have you forsaken me?") If you take away their spirit, (into your hands I entrust my spirit) they expire, And back to their dust they go. If you send forth your spirit, they are created; And you make the face of the ground new." -- Psalm 104:29-30

I believe that God raised Jesus on the third day...not as a disembodied spirit but rather as a spirit person with a spirit body. Angels have spirit bodies and have the ability to materialize a human body. Some materialized angels ate a meal with Abraham. (and I'm sure that their bodies had bones) Jesus shared food with his disciples after he was resurrected.

On different occasions he materialized bodies according to the needs of the moment. And it wasn't by his appearance that he was recognized by his followers...it was his actions and words.

The bible accounts indicate that Jesus remained close by for 40 days, during which time he interacted with his disciples in various ways.

The admonition to Mary to: "stop clinging to me" may have much to do with this statement of Paul's:

"Consequently from now on we know no man according to the flesh. Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more." -- 2 Corinthians 5:16

Mary may have been wishing for Jesus to be the flesh and blood person she knew before his death. That would be a natural reaction. I sure would have!

It took over a month to accustom his brothers to his new status. That also required him to visibly ascend to heaven. To them it was the sky since "sky" is "up". But it was more probably into the celestial dimension that we refer to as "heaven".

Anyway, this is my present view and allows me to include the most scripture to make somewhat of a rounded out picture of what took place.

I believe in the validity of 1 Peter 3:18.

"Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit."

Hope these :2cents: add to the pot.

love,
rez:P

Thanks For the post Sis,:thumbsup:

IT is very similar to how I see things.

I find that many believe the word spirit to be as a "ghost" type thing.
which I think also allows for more confusion. IT also allows us as individuals to “become spirits” or ghosts.

We are Living Souls because spirit/flesh combination if I am correct in understanding.
So For Jesus to have been trully resurected he needs to have spirit in combination with something. "in my reasoning"

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, " My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

It makes sense to me that when we die Since we have not been granted “LIFE” that when our breath goes our “spirit” goes back to GOD. “the source of Life” "no no ghost can be floating around."

Whereas with JESUS HE is now the owner of HIS lifes breath. the thing that animates him. Like getting the title to our house.
The Life breath we have is on Loan from GOD. IF that makes sense.

So to me this allows him to come back in the exact same manner as he left. with the same exact body and all.
It disproves to me that it will only be those that see with a spiritual “eye” or more likely the “all seeing eye”
It also proves that he is not an angel because what angel has life in himself? And if I remember correctly they were stopped from putting on the flesh.
It also shows that the life in the flesh is not the same life that he now has as his own spirit is truly separated from the source of life as he can Live on his own.
It also deepens "the all things being created for him and thru him" scripture.
GOD started animated creation but JESUS gave true LIFE to it.
It was By GOD's power but thru JESUS sacrafice.
hope some of it masde some sense.

Hi Frank, I think if we simply read the Scriptures and look at the words that describe His resurrection it tells a different story.

The Jews asked Jesus to show them "a sign" and He said the sign would be the raising of "HIS body" ( not faking one )

that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”


19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”


21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.


What was torn down? HIS Body!

What was raised back up? HIS body!

I am afraid the WT " raised as a Spirit creature " was needed in order for Him to turn back into Michael.Also Him taking on bodys to show people He over came death is a bit like a con job to me.

John 20

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”


So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side.
Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” ( the Greek actually reads "the Lord (Ho Kurious ) of me and the God ( Ho Theos) of me )
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Luke 24 really hits home the Lord goes way out of His way to make sure everyone knows it is Physically Him alive and well!!

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? ( In other words don't you believe IT IS ME!!!)

39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle [size=large]Me and see[/size], for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.


The Lord went WAY out of His way to prove that the it was Himself appearing in HIS body not some " Spirit " faking a body to be seen but He eats just to prove how Physical He is.

Why would Jesus be the only one in the Entire OT and NT who is resurrected without a body then goes on to get a duplicate and fake people out? Did Lazurus have a Body?


John 10:18
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

John 11

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Also Peter nails it home that His body could not die and rot but would be raised up as was foretold.

Acts 2
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:


‘ I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did [size=medium]His flesh see corruption[/size]. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

There is a lot more that could be said but there are a few passages to look obver closely.

BB:happyheart::friends::happyheart:

Makes sense to me! :ok:

Luke 24:2-7 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (those angels even looked like 'men')

Acts 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

There's no doubt that Jesus arose in his body - otherwise somewhere there would be a rotted corpse in a tomb to be found by doubters, yes? There was/is no body to be found - Jesus' tomb was empty. So the question you're raising is 'what kind of body'?

I've wondered about Jesus' comment to Mary M. too - and I wonder if it was a more intimate 'clinging' than just a touch - maybe she was wanting to embrace him closely and hug him tightly - but his body was in a state of transition? In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit. -- 1 Peter 3:18 - may refer to this - John 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
Doesn't say he was 'made into a spirit'...:dontknow: His body was 'glorified', but we don't know what that really means, do we, except that it was 'changed'.

It seems our fleshly bodies will be 'changed' too - it doesn't mean they will 'dematerialize' - but they will change into something we don't yet know and haven't experienced... yet. The angels are able to appear as 'men' to us humans when they need to - we just don't understand how.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Something happened to Stephen - I don't know what, but something radiant -
Acts 6:15 And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel.
Acts 7:55-59 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

A couple more :2cents:
:heartbeat: Love you guys! :grouphug:

Willa - As far as I can see, there's only one place that adresses the actual composition of the risen Jesus - and that's when he assures his disciples that it is really him, and invites them to touch his wounds and also see that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as he has. I believe very much that Jesus words always have to be foundation of our doctrines - if he says he's flesh then he isn't lying.


being made alive in the spirit is nothing to do with your physical body - we are told to put our flesh to death every day, to put down our fleshly needs and wants and to be guided by the Spirit. What Jesus has is a glorified, transformed human body, that is perfectly led by the spirit - as we will have - but it is still the body thatl went to the cross.


flesh and blood is an figure of speech that usually means "sinful flesh" or just "mortal flesh." The mortal and sinful cannot inherit the kingdom of God but it is not the actual "stuff" of flesh that cannot inherit the kingdom, but the mortal/sinful element. Just as being "made alive in the spirit" does not involve not having a physical form. I also see no biblical reason to assume that heaven and God's throne are not more real and more solid than here on earth. The idea of it all being "floaty" and "immaterial" is a bit like the medaeval images of hell - mankinds best depiction of something we don't quite understand.

Well said, Malkah, and I agree! Transformation is a glorious thing!:D

:peace:

I often wonder how much different an angels face looks as compared to a human face:

Acts 6:15
And as all those sitting in the San´he·drin gazed at him, they saw that his face was as an angel’s face.

Whatever an angels face is supposed to look like the 1st Century Jews seemed to know with confidence what the difference was.

How much different can they be?

Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget hospitality, for through it some, unknown to themselves, entertained angels


Another very interesting thing to contemplate is that Jesus said he would drink and eat again.

Matthew 26:29
But I tell YOU, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.”

Is he not drinking wine now because there is no wine where he is?

Luke 22:30
that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Will that be a different table to this one:

Matthew 8:11
But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens;

If they are different tables will those tables all be in one of the dining rooms mentioned in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 42:13
And he proceeded to say to me: “The dining rooms of the north [and] the dining rooms of the south that are before the separated area, they are the holy dining rooms, where the priests who are approaching Jehovah eat the most holy things. There they deposit the most holy things and the grain offering and the sin offering and the guilt offering, because the place is holy.

If there is more than one dining room then how many can be fed at one sitting?

No answers, just lots of questions.


In Christ

abe

Hi abe, I would see the differences this way.

Matt 26,Luke 22,and Ezek all of the Millennial Kingdom on earth.


Matt 8 The Marriage Supper of the lamb ( Jews )[Abraham,Isaac,Jacob] and Gentiles [the east and the west]
{Son's of the Kingdom} = the unbelieving Jewish nation

BB:happyheart::friends::happyheart: