I need to know. Is it here? Is it in hiding? In a wilderness land with a gag order? The Babylon of utterances cannot be uttering in unity of the true church—not here. Not yet. Is my faith beginning to wane?
I stopped two Mormon lads today as they were taping a sign to a light pole with little tear-off tags with their cell phone #’s attached. Advertising I presumed, offering free home book-of-Mormon studies. They were dressed so nice and had their elder badges proudly affixed to their lapels. The conversation was light and I tried not to confront their faith too hard and heavy. Just asked a simple question. What would you do if———???
Funny thing about faith. It strengthens as its defense weakens to the burden of proof. When hard pressed, its possessors’ eyes glaze over and they simply repeat their mantras which bring them comfort. The greater one believes anything, it seems, the greater is their need to believe and the less proof of belief exists. Belief, to be real, should really be self-evident. But for Mormons, what is self-evidence? “It’s good enough for me,†sings the choir of Old Time Religion. But to a Mormon, the old time religion ain’t so old and the physical evidence is entirely missing. Faith, to be self-evident, should be at least old enough and honest enough to admit evidence otherwise. Otherwise, how is it to be self-evident?
There was a time that Jehovah’s Witnesses seemed so evident that nothing could penetrate their rock solid proof. Every argument launched against us had an iron-clad answer. That was far more than any other religion had … until the lie was discovered. Then came the other lies to cover the first, and the gag orders that followed eviction notices until all we were was a cult of the highest order—almost as high as the Illuminati—but then, who are the Illuminati? I was never invited, so how will I ever know?
Burden of proof. What a fine place to be—to be responsible, to unburden my faith until proof arrives. Proof be damned! Where is faith but that which comes from God—the spirit of God that tells the spirit within each one of us—this is the truth! This is your burden of proof!
God help us! Where is the true church, pray tell? Who are my true brothers? How am I to partake of the blood and flesh of Christ if I have no unity—no brotherhood? Does anyone get it? Jehovah’s Witnesses had it, but so many threw it away when they bought the lies that now they have grown as if empty leaven hidden by some un-named conspirator—the mind police now controlling them, who send the mindless out as their inquisitors! Sure some are travelling wilderness reaches of the self-proclaimed congregation of the first order, meticulously strengthened by their so-called self-evident Biblical belief, but the devil entered to do the devil’s work, and we must live with that.
How I yearn to have walked with Christ, or with Saul while he struggled under his rebirth to become Paul; to have been in Antioch when all those converted Pharisees came from Jerusalem to Judeaize the gentile believers! To watch the prison doors unlatch and for Peter and the rest to rejoice over the power of our Lord of salvation. To hear the purity in the words of Christ being declared and repeated in all their honesty, declaring obedience to our Father as Jesus did—that I too should be so willing … before the wolves came, before the false apostles, before the deceitful workers, and the self-made, proud and arrogant … before the apostasy set in its political agenda and drove the true congregation out.
Was there ever a time since that Christianity emerged so powerfully, humbly and open to correction? Every protestant movement, every reformed church, every dissenting religion—from Islam to Mormonism has failed. But they all have faith. It’s just more self-evident than evident—to me.
wheat and weeds growing together, my dear brother sw; wheat and weeds. inside the organization calling itself jehovah's witnesses. outside that organization, too. here at paradise cafe discussion forum. there at every other discussion board for spiritual matters. out in the wilderness. standing right next to you.
peter: 'to whom shall we go away, lord?'
jesus: 'i am the way and the truth and the life.'
as our personal relationship with christ jesus (and his father) grows, -- as we become able to truly allow him/them to take up occupancy within us, -- we are then able to stop searching outside of ourselves for that which must be within us.
christian love always, ... your friend and brother, ... isomam
SW, you ask, “Where is the true church, pray tell? Who are my true brothers? How am I to partake of the blood and flesh of Christ if I have no unity—no brotherhood?â€
The Book of Revelation tells us what we need to “get out of†and that is Babylon the Great … the Harlot. :read:
I would suggest that determining (to your own satisfaction), who/what ‘Babylon the Great’ truly represents, might go some way to answering your questions and allowing you to find the brotherhood/fellowship you seek.
Does it represent ‘Apostate Israel’, the ‘Vatican/Papacy’ or the ‘World of False Religion’ or something else? :confused: :thinking:
I suggest this because I’ve been asking myself exactly the same questions and it seems to me that this might be a good starting point. (At least it is for me!)
Measurer :hibye:
sw,
Like many others including myself you have groaned over the conditions inside of the Watchtwoer Bible and Tract Society having once believed that you had found the truth.
You have gone out by the gate and are now dispersed, limping in the wilderness outside the camp while suffering reproaches from those who remain inside and being treated badly by the rest of the world.
In this terrible condition who is there that can save us?
Where can we go?
Lamentations 1
4 The ways of Zion are mourning, because there are none coming to the festival.
All her gates are laid desolate; her priests are sighing.
Her virgins are grief-stricken, and she herself has bitterness.
5 Her adversaries have become the head. Those who are her enemies are unconcerned.
Because Jehovah himself has brought grief to her on account of the abundance of her transgressions,
Her own children have walked captive before the adversary.
6 And from the daughter of Zion there goes out all her splendor.
Her princes have proved to be like stags that have found no pasturage;
And they keep walking without power before the pursuer.
In my opinion this actually does represent the condition of true religion today.
There is only one way out of this circumstance:
Micah 4:6
“In that day,†is the utterance of Jehovah, “I will gather her that was limping; and her that was dispersed I will collect together, even her whom I have treated badly. 7 And I shall certainly make her that was limping a remnant, and her that was removed far off a mighty nation; and Jehovah will actually rule as king over them in Mount Zion, from now on and into time indefinite.
Continue reading the rest of Micah, it might cheer you up and give you the comfort required to endure to the end.
In Christ
abe
Hey sw my brother and friend... :friends::thumbup:
Where is the 'true congregation' ...?
Well ... I guess another way of asking that would be to ask where are the true 'people' of God today couldn't it ... :confused::grouphug:
Well, one way that I could answer that is simply those who SHOW TRUE LOVE for others ... no matter 'where' they may be ...
I decided to look up the scripture about what 'faith is' ...
Heb. 11:1 ...
(BBE) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the sign that the things not seen are true.
(ESV) Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Another word for faith is BELIEF ...
A couple of other definitions for faith are ...
# Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
# Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
Now the second one I find interesting in light of the definition in Hebrews don't you ... ;)
How could we have 'faith' or 'belief' in everlasting life since we have never seen it nor experienced it ...? :dontknow:
That I think is where the HOPE comes in ... :blush::giverose:
The Greek word for 'hope' is ...
G1679 ἐλπιÌζω
elpizō el-pid'-zo
From G1680; to expect or confide: - (have, thing) hope (-d) (for), trust.
G1680 ἐλπιÌÏ‚
elpis el-pece'
FromἐÌλπω elpoÌ„ which is a primary word (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence: - faith, hope.
Interesting how these two are connected isn't it ... sort of like you can't have one without the other ...
Then we have Paul's words at Rom. 8:24 ...
(CEV) And this hope is what saves us. But if we already have what we hope for, there is no need to keep on hoping.
(GNB) For it was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. For who of us hopes for something we see?
This is something to think on I think ... :thinking:
Then we have 2 Cor. 5:7 ...
(ASV) (for we walk by faith, not by sight);
(GNB) For our life is a matter of faith, not of sight.
(CEV) But we live by faith, not by what we see.
When I read this I think of the examples of men of old who BELIEVED or who had FAITH in the promises of God that were yet future ... and some of which HAD NO REAL BASIS to really believe in ...
Abraham and Sarah for one was too old ...
The apostles who looked forward to better life ... a real life ...
and there are many others as no doubt could be mentioned ... :)
And yet ... as important as these two interchangeable things seem to be, how necessary to nurture in our hearts so as to KNOW that the promises of God are true and real ... there is an even MORE IMPORTANT one ... one that also goes hand in hand with these ones ...
1Cor. 13:13 ...
(BBE) But now we still have faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
(Geneva) And nowe abideth faith, hope and loue, euen these three: but the chiefest of these is loue.
Yes, we we don't LOVE our God ... if we don't LOVE our lives NOW and the future he holds out for us that on 'what' could we base our 'faith' and 'hope' ... the foundation would surely waver in the very fact that since our future has yet to unfold ... since we cannot see it, touch it, smell it, taste it, smell it ... (our very senses cannot perceive it) then we HAVE to have FAITH and HOPE that it is REAL ...
Just as we have to have FAITH and HOPE that there ARE true followers of Christ that surround us ... that experience and feel as we do and yet continue on to struggle against seemingly insurmountable odds ... :thumbup: and that they have LOVE for us just as we have LOVE for them!! :heartbeat::grouphug::heartbeat:
If we open our hearts ... WIDEN OUT as Paul told us to do in our affections ... then maybe we will begin to see the INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS of the 'true congregation of God' are all around us ... waiting for us to notice them and accept them for the love they have for God and his Son!
Not sure if any of this helps or makes sense ... but it sounds like you need a big sisterly hug my brother ... :hug::cheekkiss:;):P
May your heart feel lighter my brother ... :happyheart:
Your sis BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
(Colossians 3:14) But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union.
Hey again ... :hibye:
I have been thinking about you bro and thought I would check around to see if I could come up with something to show you are not alone in thinking to find out ... WHERE is is true congregation of God today ... :dontknow:
Perhaps another way of wording this might be ...
WHERE is the true LOVE of God today ...?
I stumbled across these lyrics and found they had a song to with it ... not really into rap ... but the message is cool I think when we think to look for the answer ...
And to me the ...
ANSWER is in the very QUESTION ...
Here are the lyrics ...
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/blackeyed...elove.html
And here is the song ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc
After watching this video and reading the words I can only say that ...
THIS IS WHY WE NEED FAITH, :pray:HOPE :giverose: AND LOVE :heartbeat: ...
May we make the world we live in a better place because WE are a part of the true congregation of God today!! :happyheart::grouphug:
Luv again bro ... :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
Hey, SW:
I've been straining over the same questions, and the answer is: I haven't found it!
In about 30 minutes from now, I'll be meeting with a few of our dear brothers and sisters on PalTalk, and this little group is all that I've found. Everyone else is wrapped up in their own foolish conclusions and doctrines, and has little love for anyone who disagrees.
I have two fleshly sisters who are WT "Pioneers," and I know that what they are being taught is wrong, but have nowhere to suggest they should go. I am also contacted almost daily by WT elders, but I don't know what to tell them. I just continue to pray: "Come Lord Jesus!"
RE: In about 30 minutes from now, I'll be meeting with a few of our dear brothers and sisters on PalTalk, and this little group is all that I've found. Everyone else is wrapped up in their own foolish conclusions and doctrines, and has little love for anyone who disagrees.
Wow, you seem to have the entire world in your hands, Jimmy. What a statement.:shocked:
AR
Boy what an incredible spiritual site this is; I LOVE IT
Hi Smoldering wick
I really liked the way you put your question and your desciption as to how you feel.
After several years of fading from JW meetings on and off, I decided (with reluctance) to go back to the meetings knowing that it would be a real test of my faith. I went back for the simple reason of associating with many genuine people who have a love for God. I also went back to ensure that there would be harmony within my family, as many are JW's. I dont know how long I have to live on this planet, but today, here and now, I am treating each day as something precious with my family.
The JW's have many things wrong and I am aware of many of their errors. I went back with a different perspective, in that I have a close relationship with Jehovah and his son Jesus and can now feel God's Holy Spirit in my life. YHWH knows that I am sincere and truthful in what I beleive. I have also prepared myself when I must speak pure truth as written in his word (though I am trying to act with caution). That means I could end up getting disfellowshipped some time in the future as a result; however, I have to be true to God (not men); as I would have to speak truth when preaching and will refuse to deceive people. I have gone back to the meetings with the very same view as yourself 'where is the true Congregation of God'?
Yes, if the true Congregation of God was clearly shown to me , I would go to it straight away (as I am sure many of us on this site would). Your explanation of first century acts imply that you are very sincere and dearly wish to know where this congregation is. All I can say is, work with what you have now and build a wonderful close relationship with God, pray to him daily, read his word daily, seek his guidance asking for his Holy Spirit to help you. You will feel the Holy Spirit working in your life and it will guide you into Truth. We might not see things clearly just now, but by keeping faith, we will soon see all things clearly- 1 Cor 13:12
Philemon 1:3 Grace to you and peace to you from God our father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
TE
you could always suggest the old fall back.
Our Father and our Lord have been known from time to time to have an open arms welcome for any who are willing to change and goto them.
just a suggestion.
took me over 15 years to work with GOD on my family in a very passive manner. it's not great but it is better then it used to be.
I know he blessed me. as I try to use Jobs example for my Loved ones.
actual just realized how old I am I think it is more like 20 Plus
i forgat to address this to JIM
Ahhh isomam, my brother—So nice to hear your voice! Yeah I’m venting. You might even have guessed that I’m rereading Crisis of Conscience and getting exasperated again, knowing everything Ray went through, what I tried in my heart of hearts to change. And I so recall those days of the mid-to-late 70’s when asking a simple question to Dan Sydlik, “Does the governing body argue as much as we do on bodies of elders?†He simply said nothing and walked away.
I was so young and foolish—and thought the spirit was so much stronger at the top. Ha ha! What a laugh! I was so much like Ray in some ways—so different in others. I was young and naïve. While I had the gift to speak, I didn’t out of respect. I had the gift to write, but I kept it either anonymous or to myself. And had I known all that Ray knew, the world should soon know of this great conspiracy. Perhaps soon it shall.
And so I vent. No one in particular should take me too seriously because I am still discovering my ignorance. Perhaps when I draw my last breath … perhaps it will all be over—perhaps not. Really then, who am I to think that I should make a difference. Who am I to think I am greater than anyone else so deluded as I?
Abe, Measurer, BR, AR, my good friend Jim, and all of you other contributors, what can I say? This is where I am at present, for I know that my asking for faith and wisdom can only be accomplished by God. Doubting such only makes me a wave of the sea or a cloud blown hither, just to wither in the wind. For what reason do I agonize really? Because I just lost a good friend in death? Because I recall his last pure words to me before I got so choked up he stopped to ask me not to get too emotional? Yes, a life so precious to him has become so very, very cherished to me and every moment exquisite to think, with all of our memories intact—moment to moment! How could I for a moment NOT believe in the everlasting love of God?
Then I contemplate. How undeserved I am? How unthankful are we all to think we rightfully possess life! How unthankful is all humanity not to accept the precious gift, to reject redemption of the only one able to redeem. We are all so presumptuous to believe it is anything but the grace of God and the redeeming power of his Christ. This I do not question, if just my deserving it is not possible—and should it not be possible for me, then I am no more deserving than those being saved, for Christ died obedient, with all of his human faculties—righteous, faithful and enduring amid the excruciating pain and suffering of the indignation of a torturous death! How could I not love them all—all who endured so? Even if I was unsalvageable, it would be unconscionable of me to doubt, for I am so small—so insignificant to hope to see my friend again.
We are all so ignorant. We have faith and hope over what we see partially and the completeness enters us only through the spirit that binds with us to form us, to unite us in true faith. I mentioned the Mormon lads because I see myself there—except I wasn’t born to any such faith but ran the gauntlet into a perceived truth that had been wickedly manoeuvred otherwise. And oh, how I used to defeat the arguments of such young, impressionable youth—even all others!
But to what end? That they should be unacquainted with salvation? I so wanted them to know what I knew—the faith is a growing to fruition, a wheat that knows its path, genetically predisposed to produce fruit and yet not one of us can impart it to another. It all comes from God through Christ.
And now, as I contemplate the moments of life I have left in me, I feel desperate to direct others even though I am no part of the process, for who else but Christ will impart spirit? Who else but Jesus knows those who belong to him?
Love you guys (and girls)
sw
i have stuggled with that same dilema
and so far this is what i have concluded
ever since Jesus came - i think this has been a problem - because after Jesus died the rot started to set in - even the early diciples had to deal with false christians and it got worse as time went on until the pure teachings of Christ were corrupted by power seeking men - the reformation brought in new truths from the cathloc church but still corruption was strife and the same overpowering dogmatic doctrines were introduced up to the Jehovah's Witness - another reformation but still the age old power hungry wolves have taken over - so i think this dilema has existed from the the very beginning - the bible says turn away from people who proove false - this i have had to do with the jw's as all i can see is they are more interested in maintining power with dogmatic doctrines and do not prioritize love, kindess, carring etc- i find the frutiage of the spirit practiced more by non christians unfortunatley - and am amazed by how i learn many lessons from all types of people - so i can only conclude that the gathering of the wheat is still future and until that time we just have to do the best we can with all people while keeping Jesus and Jehovah in the forefront of our journey
i recently read a wonderful book called "Wokini" - it was very inspiriing - there is much work to be done on my inside and developing myself as a ture diciple of Jeus than focusing too much on the outter stuff
Wokini: A Lakota Journey to Happiness and Self-understanding
(1994)
A non fiction book by
Billy Mills and Nicholas Sparks
The people of YHWH can be found everywhere around the globe. These ones are scattered at this time for one purpose...to shed the light on the nations when mankind's darkest hour arrives. These ones will be no part of any organized religion. God is not a religion.
So many people today will lean on their own understanding...will follow the blind...will get caught napping and most will follow a religion that tickles their ears.
The "operation of Error" is a obvious to the ones who are truly seeking to follow YHWH. They will recognize this operation as being confusing dogma or doctrines that lead mankind further away from the True Light.
This means the BIBLE. This means the Torah. This means Koran.
Any book that says it is inspired of God and yet stumbles and divides people is the operation of error.
True, the Bible has many teachings of the true light. But, as John advised us...Test Every Inspired Utterance.
I personally believe that the Bible has been corrupted. Yahshua or Jesus spoke by the Spirit...he was very clear on what is required of those who will be remembered or be saved. However, in light of the hypocritical actions and fruits of the majority who Preach and teach what the Bible says.....Wake Up.
So simple....even a child would understand it. Really Jesus? A child? Uh Huh ya right...Not if it is written down by Apostles in Sheep's clothing. IE (PAUL)...sorry I am here to offend. The Rabbi's know the truth about Saul...the Corrupter.
To control mankind the Devil has used every trick in the book to get God's people. The book that I am referring to is the Bible...the Torah and the Koran.
So as someone mentioned in a previous thread.... Revelation 18:4 is absolutely bang on. So the Bible again does hold pieces to the puzzle, so it can not totally be ignored or not studied, it just needs to be put in it's place.
But seriously here friends and family...YHWH wants all of us to lean on him not some book written rewritten sliced and diced....so on and so forth. How do you do this? Prayer. Follow the basic truths...you know them they are supposed to be written in your heart.
Do not follow men that teach things that are beyond your comprehension or understanding. So many people spend too much time debating what is the truth and the so called deeper things of the Scriptures all the while they negate the facts that our Father wants us to serve him by the Spirit of Truth. You need to start to live your life in a way that reflects his spirit. Simple yes.
I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I am now one of the Almighty's activists. Quit witnessing what is going on around you and start taking part of the real life.
Oh yeah... and Eat your Veggies....
You have some truth stinger, but you misunderstand Paul. He was one of the good guys chosen by messier himself.
Wow, you seem to have the entire world in your hands, Jimmy. What a statement.:shocked:
Sorry, AR... just a bit of depression talking.