Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi people,:hibye:

Now, I hope this one is my last question: What do you feel about your country? Are you proud of being a citizen of your land? What do you feel when you see the Flag? Does the national Hymne touch your heart?

Will you defend your country if attacked?

Thank you for your response.

:heartbeat:

AR

How would (does) Jesus answer your questions AlienResident?

The scripture that comes to my mind is this one:

1Co 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, now, you did indeed receive [it], why do you boast as though you did not receive [it]?

When I apply this principle to my good fortune of being born in a country not ravaged by war or poverty. Or to myself having enough food and shelter and money to live a good quality of life, it seem that its an accident of birth. I could have been born anywhere and any-when. Why should I be proud? All I have was given to me. This scripture then comes to mind:

Luk 12:48 But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him.

So as God has blessed me and I hold those riches in the trust account of Christ, I have a duty to bless others with that wealth and blessings. So when it comes to war I would have to weight up the complex issues of my duty. If I was faced with the second world war circumstances I would go to fight. I would need to weigh up in my mind the Jesus who said return evil for evil to no one and the Jesus who overturned the temple and used a whip for the benefit of the poor and disenfranchised against corrupt leaders. Each war has different merits issues and morals that would need to be thought through. I couldn't simply be a pacifist under all circumstances and I couldn't be a blind loyalist follower of my own government on the grounds that its not for me to reason why only to do and die. God set the governments in their relative places and tethered me to this country but he is also my ultimate King above even such governments. So proud I am not, because what did I do to deserve it. Fight I would if God wanted me to, after careful consideration of the best most loving thing to do in an imperfect system and of Gods revealed will in my case through prayer. Nationalistic hymns mean nothing to me in the same way that I cannot judge a man through looking at what clothes he wears. So how can I judge a country on the prettiness of the music.

The Bible indicates that nations or national groups will be around long after the millennium. It is good to be grateful for our homeland, as Jehovah loves gratitude, but pride is another thing. We're all equal on this planet and no one is better than anybody else.

Jimmy C.

I love the land of America, or better put - I love the terra firma on which this nation happens to rest. America is a beautifully diverse land, even though it's drastically changed in the past 250 years. But it's still the awe and wonder of this little slice of earth that first convinced me of a loving and living God.:thumbsup: I love living in this spot that happens to be called "Indiana". I'd also love to see other places in the world, but this is where I always want to "come home". I don't think it's 'better' than any other place - it's just where I'm comfortable and my roots are deep here. If I had to move, I guess I would adapt and be happy anywhere, but I'd miss the wooded hills and farmland of "back home". (in the southern states it would be "down home", lol!)

But by "country" do you mean as in national pride, or patriotism?
No, never felt my heart "swell with pride" over just being born an "American", though it's literally pumped into you from birth.
Saw a thing on BBC once about how nationalistic pride was the heartbeat of the Nazi regime. The children were taught Nazi songs in school - a convincing appearance of complete unity of thought and loyalty to Germany's right to rule over the whole earth - which struck me as totally bizarre and so wrong! After more thought:thinking: - how is that any different than paying worshipful trubute to a flag(hand over heart!) or grade school children memorizing the words to songs about how America is not only THE smartest, most powerful nation, but blessed by God Almighty above all others on earth? An "ah ha" moment! (though I always liked the ones about how beautiful the land is, hehe)

And besides that, I think you know my parents were very politically active. They talked a lot about the inevitable corruption of those in power, and it was important to them because they felt it was their duty to be an active voice for good. They were a good example for me as a kid about being 'the change you want to see in others', and exposing dirty politics as wrong. Kennedy's assasination hurt them on a personal, emotional level because they'd both 'fought' for him in the capacity of their heartfelt civilian, patriotic duty. That's the sad thing - the slyest and dirtiest usually wins. And that's what turned me off from nationalistic pride, politics, voting... and VietNam really put a lid on it.:crybaby: Don't get me talking about politics!

If it's to do with fighting and contending for crowns in this world... I've never been too interested. That's one thing that made my entrance into WTWorld relatively free from conflict.

You know Teshome, how I was drawn to your user name immediately :friends: because I too feel like an alien resident, not only in this country, but in this world. But my experience is much different from your experience - do you feel the pull of your native land, brother? I know I would. If I had to leave here and was only able to view it from afar being wrecked on all levels... I'd be an emotional wreck. I would cry and pray - it's certainly not wrong to pray that God guides the ones in charge(whether they allow themselves to be guided is another issue). Not out of a sense of patriotism, but just wanting the best for homeland and family and people... Oh wait - is that patriotism?! :shocked: lol! So, patriotism is a multi-faceted 'thing'. :surrender: I relate to what Brian and Jimmy said too.

This is what Thomas Jefferson said: “I have great hope that some patriotic spirit will, at a favorable moment, call (up the law for religious freedom) and make it the keystone of the arch of our government”

This too: “We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

... some thoughts...
Love U bro! :peace:

I could probably live anywhere and be happy, as long as it's warm. I'll leave the politics to those with shallow minds.

From a wordly sense, I can see why being born in a large powerful country like the US or Russia would make one patriotic. However the reality is that patriotism is a form of worship that men (and women) are prepared to die for. History has proven how shallow patriotism can be and the hatreds that are created as a result.

The earth is YHWH's. He created us; we are all part of the human race; but sadly we have been fragmented into various races wth all its inherited prejudices.

Yes, I love where I am from as I have beeen socialised within that part of the world; but I am careful not to fall into the trap that Satan wants me to fall into=Nationalism/patriotism. I beleive that this would be detrimental to my own spirituality and relationships with the rest of human kind.

TE

We must remember shouldn't we that it was God himself who separated the national groups in Babel, because we as mankind are much less dangerous that way. Better to have waited cultural energy with in fighting than mankind going in one united path the way of Satan. A few thoughts!

Hi AlienResident.
Just to clarify a couple of things here.

1 What is a country?
2 What is a citizen?

Still thinking.

Everyone has to live somewhere, and it just so happens that I was born in the United States. I will defend myself and my family if I ever were to need to, but, no, I would never join the army even if I were young again. In my opinion no Christian should ever advocate man's rule, and of course all governments today are ruled by men. When I see the Flag it makes me think of how futile men's efforts are at ruling themselves. And, no, the National Anthem has no effect on me other than maybe sadden me. It makes me sad that multitudes of peoples do not understand that the governments are not instituted by God. It saddens me that they've been fooled into believing that Romans 13 teaches that God put the governments in place.

.

It was once said: "Nationalism is a cock crowing atop his own dungheap." It's what turned millions of Germans into Nazis.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Was it really nationalism or perhaps it was really lies and propaganda? Its good to sort the issues. There is no doubt that pride can be dangerous when it is based on lies and propaganda. Hubris means false pride. However there is good pride as well. If and its a big if, if the country we lived did much to help the poor and championed the equal rights of all, then that would be OK in my view to be proud of it.

I would be interested to know seismos how you interpret Romans 13.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be submitting to higher [or, governing] authorities, for [there] is no authority except from God, but the existing authorities have been appointed by God.

Is not Paul essentially agreeing with Christ in this following verse?

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, "You have authority over me only because it was given to you by God. So the man who handed me over to you is guilty of a worse sin."

Its interesting to contrast these two verses because I think its another example that shows that Paul had access to the contents of the gospels and agreed with what Christ taught, contrary to those who say Paul didn't and usurped Christianity into his own image.

It may be that God hasn't literally/directly placed the governments in place, after all they have evolved from previous systems, however Jesus seemed to have the understanding that God had given Rome and Pilate authority even over the son of God. Not an insignificant understanding? Paul seems to run with this view and suggest that his fellow Christians also respect the authority God has evidently given the authorities. The view seems to be that such would not exist unless God had allowed it, and that because Christ didn't fight the authorities, acknowledging that they had power even over him, then Christians should have to same mind that was in Christ on such issues. Even if they are acting unjustly, as with Christ and the trials, didn't on its own grant authority to take a stand against those authority's because God gave them that authority.

Just a few thoughts.

:groupwave:

I LOVE New Zealand!!

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BORING!!

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