Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi folks,:hibye:

Thank you again for your responses to my question on another thread as to whether the witnesses are your brothers and sisters. Now your response prompted me to ask the next question; Are the Witnesses Christians?

For some of you the question might look just absurd. Afterall, doesn't the witnesses call themselves "Christian Jehovah's witnesses"? In addition, we all know that the witnesses claim to be the only "true Christians", while all others are said to be false christians. But isn't calling other christians false exactly what makes people unchristian?

Really, is someone automatically christian because he/ she claims to be a christian?

In light of thís background, I ask what makes an active Jehovah's Witnesses a christian? Afterall, a witness is not baptised in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit; a primary prerequisite to become a christian.

Your take is very much appreciated.

:heartbeat:

AR

Hi brother AR,
I hope many are Christians.

If individual witnesses know their Saviour as; Lord, personal Saviour and Friend, they are as much a Christian as you and I.

God and his Son are their judges, just as they are ours.
Peace to you brother
Derek

Hi Derek,

how are you doing dear brother?

Thanks for the response. I think you put it in very wise words. I hope many are Christians.

Also I agree that individual witnesses are christians if they: know their Saviour as; Lord, personal Saviour and Friend... But isn't that the saddest part of the matter? Because by the time a witness knows his/her Saviour as; Lord, personal Saviour and Friend, he stops becoming a witness. Which inturn means: A person is either a christian or a witness. It doesn't go both ways, don't you think?

Witnesses don't recognize Jesus as someone who died personally for them. His sacrificial blood is said to apply only for "the annointed remnant". So can someone really be called a christian without: a) being baptised according to matthew 28:19-20? 2) On what basis is someone a christian if he/ she don't believe that Jesus has died for him/her?

I send you my warmest brotherly affection.

:heartbeat:

AR

Well I have noticed... that when you talk to much about Christ Jesus, you start getting strange looks from them. I had someone say to me, "you sound just like one of them Born Agains."

This is strange..because this is what born again means, to be born in the Holy Spirit and have a new heart, to be able to hear Christ's voice calling you to come.

My mom even asked me..boy you sure talk about Jesus alot!

In fact, the very last time I stepped foot into a kingdom hall, was on a tuesday morning when I met for service.. I was at a door with another sister, and the man and his children stepped outside on the porch....and was smiling and listening and waiting for the sister to finish speaking....then he paused ..looked me right in the eyes and said in a loud voice..."Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT christians!!!!"

We left, and when I came home that day...I started searching the internet, as to why others says JW's aren't christains.

Well ...I found alot of things wrong with the picture. We were told never to search the internet...now I knew why.

This is also the time when Christ called me to Him, and I listened to His voice. He said to me in a vision while I was walking in a white cloud....""you are one of my sheep ...You hear my voice."

I never looked back.

Love,
New Heart[/b]

How are you doing, NH?:hibye:

Thanks for the contribution, sis. It is really hard to believe, I posted the same question on a german forum and the response I got was like: :shocked: How dare you pose such a question, ofcourse they are christians.

It is a chilling truth, sis, I found absolutely nothing in the witnesses that resembles christian. Infact, the opposite argument looks more plausible, i.e., the witnesses being the enemies of christ. What do you think?

Be blessed sis, my thoughts are always with you.

:heartbeat:

AR

Hi Alien Resident.
It might be interesting to see what Jesus has to say to his disciples before ascending to heaven. The relevant portions of Scriptures will be highlighted in red.

That would mean that Christians are Jesus' witnesses.

Again we have witnesses of Jesus referenced in Revelation.

It's interesting that J. F. Rutherford Adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

What happened to the name Jesus Witnesses?
End Rant.
__________________
Controversy is a work in progress

Hi AR ... :hibye:

Interesting question ... :questioning:

I wonder sometimes though if 'Christian' is even the 'correct' to use for 'followers of Christ'?

Wasn't it a slur on believers in the first century ... didn't they go by 'the way'?

Just thought I'd toss the salad for a loop ... :P

Seriously though, I believe our brothers indeed think they are ... but sadly, when it comes time to the memorial ... when they are REJECTING CHRIST by just passing the emblems ... :cry:

Well, thank goodness our Lord READS HEARTS ... and will DRAW TO HIM those who are sincere in heart ... :heartbeat:

Luv as always ...BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi TM,

thank you so much for the point you make. Good question: What happened to the name Jesus Witnesses?

I think when Jesus said to his disciples that they shall be his witnesses, he dodn't mean that they as a group will bear the name "Jeus's witnesses". The same with Revelation 17: 6. Here, the phrase: "the witnesses of Jesus", denotes to martyrs, who died while bearing a witness for Jesus. IMPO, it doesn't indicate that early christians were called Jeus's Witnesses.
According ot Acts 17, those who were preaching Jesus as the Messiah were for the first time called Christians in Antioch. And as you know, Jehovah's witnesses call themselves Christians. So they don't seem to have a problem with claiming to follow Jesus. Infact, as I said in my original post, they boast as the only ones to be christians.

But my question was more on whether the witnesses can be called christians from the biblical point of view. As you know, to call oneself a christian is not enough when it comes to following Jesus' commandments. And sadly, I don't see the witnesses following any of Jesus' commandments.

:heartbeat:

AR

Hi BR,

Thank you very much for the input, sis.

It is my personal opinion, BR, that God through His wisdom "inspired" the enemies of His servants to call the followers of His Son as christians. Afterall, if I'm not mistaken, a christian literally means he/ she who follows the Annointed, isn't it?

You said; Seriously though, I believe our brothers indeed think they are ... but sadly, when it comes time to the memorial ... when they are REJECTING CHRIST by just passing the emblems ... :cry:

That was one of the things which always makes me speechless, sis. The memorial being observed by the witnesses is nothing less than a demonic celebration of the death of our Lord.

BTW, provided the witnesses aren't behaving as christians, can you call them your brothers? I ask that because you said our brothers.

RE: Well, thank goodness our Lord READS HEARTS ... and will DRAW TO HIM those who are sincere in heart ...

Yes sis, I'm confident that those whom he wishes to get out will eventually get out, whether they are sincere in heart or not. But as matters stand now, what is your opinion? Are those who adhere to the Watchtower doctrine and actively serve it christians?

Lots of love to you and yours,

:heartbeat:

AR

Watchtower religion is Masonic in origin, it is "literalized" Kabbalah, or in other words, Enochian Magic. :jawdrop:

Because of this, I would describe it, in one sense, as the closest doctrine to the truth, while simultaneously in another sense the farthest thing from it. It uses the tetragrammaton and the sacred name "Jehovah" as a talisman (making it an emotional and spiritual sledgehammer) to gain obedience through FEAR, channeling worship energy away from the Creator and towards THEMSELVES. This brand of Black Magic is a diametric corruption of the truth! As long as the Witnesses have this golden calf in their vision, they have ZERO CHANCE of ever finding the true message of Christ.

In any event, the more I think about it, the more I see that Abe might be onto something when it comes to what God would consider the most repulsive type of false religion. So in a worldly sense, many of the prophecies would seem to be pointed directly at the Watchtower. But the Bible is MUCH MUCH bigger than that. It transcends every level of reality, both linear and non-linear (spiritual).

In summary then, in my opinion, Watchtower religion isn't "Christian" in orthodox terms or any other terms! It's FEAR PORN based on the false interpretation of the Old Testament God "YHVH". The negative entities that control the organization from the outside (they have the GB members totally under their control) use this worship energy to feed themselves because that's what demons do, they live off FEAR.

How do you conquer Watchtower religion? With LOVE!

So I'll end this post by saying to all JW's who may be lurking here, we LOVE YOU even though YOU HATE US because we're apostates in your eyes. But not to worry, pretty soon we'll all be in the Lake of Fire and you'll have the "New System" all to yourselves! If the Watchtower is going to be running the show, I'll take the LAKE :D

Peace,
Jimmy C.

hey again ... :hibye:

Are they my brothers ... and sisters of course ... :P? :thinking:

Well, when I read scriptures like ... :read:

Matthew 10:36 ...

(New International Version)

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[a]

Micah 7:6 ...

(New International Version)

6 For a son dishonors his father,
a daughter rises up against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies are the members of his own household.

Eph. 2:19 ...

(New International Version)

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,

To me this shows that those who seek to serve God and his Son, are members of the same SPIRITUAL family ... :innocent::grouphug:

Thus would they not be our 'spiritual brothers and sisters'?

However, it also makes clear that some would not be faithful to their family ... would indeed turn into an enemy ... :angry::cry:

Then I recall Jesus' words ...

Matt. 5:44,45 ...

(New International Version)

44But I tell you: Love your enemies[a] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

So, if we are LOVE our enemies ... and sometimes maybe our 'enemies' are those who WE don't view as enemies but they who view us as ... then I would have to say that I do view those whom I called my brothers and sisters at the kingdom hall as my spiritual family (even though they don't view me that way at this time) and I do love them ...

I think that until the separating work is done by the angels that indeed isn't the whole world is like our brothers and sisters ... since all of us came from the same place if we go back far enough ...? ;)

Not sure if this really answers your question ... :giverose:

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi Prodigal Son.
The part of your post that I quoted above was interesting. Did you by any chance see the last three or four seasons of Stargate SG1 where the Ori fed off of the energy of their worshipers?

I have been pondering this for some time now....Maybe we should call ourselves..."Christ's Faithful and Truth Witnesses."

When I was given the vision of the white stone like Moses saw on the mountain, the hand of God wrote on this stone an inscription in Hebrew, and also in English, which read...as He spoke outloud......

[/b]"NOT ONLY SHALL YOU BE CALLED FAITHFUL, BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED FAITHFUL AND TRUTH."

2 words stand out.

"Faithful and Truth"
these two words say it all.

Isaiah 25
1. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are Faithfulness and Truth.

We should only seek counsel and Wisdom through the true source of truth, through Him alone, seek His Wisdom.

Remember your first Love.

2. For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.

3. Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

4For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.

5Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

10For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.

11And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.

12And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.


The Father and His Son Jesus are called the same names...because this descibes them and also the bride, that is why they also will have this name.

Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. Rev. 3:12
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

Dream morning of Feb. 1st, 2010

I was dreaming that I was in a classroom with others in a Private Academy School. This was the Sophmore Class. Our teacher was the greatest teacher, so loving and kind. I felt so happy just coming to class and looked forward to this, because the teacher had such a great way of teaching, and making sure you understood fully before going on to another lesson. In the dream I found it odd, because I had already graduated, and wondered why was I brought back to the 10th grade once again? So I asked my teacher this. Then the teacher answered me. "Because there were many things you did'nt learn the first time you were in school, so we brought back those who were willing to learn from the mistakes they made the new and better way that people never knew." All I knew is I was so happy, and felt priveledged to be included in this Private Academy School. I looked forward to learning more.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

"Return, you backsliding children, And I will heal your backslidings." I have seen his ways, and will heal him; I will also lead him, And restore comforts to him And to his mourners. 'Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart. "I create the fruit of the lips: Peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near," Says the LORD, "And I will heal him." "Indeed we do come to You, For You are the LORD our God.

Hosea 14:4
I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.

Jeremiah 3:14
Return, O faithless children, declares the Lord; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

"Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings..."
Jeremiah 3:22

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him

so we must attend His Class and abide there, have a heart fully on Jesus, to learn from the master teacher who will work on your hearts privately.

But about loving the brothers, there is no need for me to say anything to you in this letter: for you have the teaching of God that love for one another is right and necessary; 1 Thess.4:9

Romans 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jerimiah 31:12
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORD—
the grain, the new wine and the oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden, and they will sorrow no more.

Jer.31
17 So there is hope for your future,"
declares the LORD.
"Your children will return to their own land.

18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning:
'You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the LORD my God.

19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'

Jer.31
33. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Ezekiel 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

Ezekiel 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


Hebrews 11:11

11. By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.


For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. ps. 33:4

Psalm 119:90 Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands

psalm 31:5

Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of Truth.

Deuteronomy 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 55:18 He will redeem my soul in peace from the battle which is against me, For they are many who strive with me.

Psalm 71:22 I will also praise You with a harp, Even Your truth, O my God; To You I will sing praises with the lyre, O Holy One of Israel.

Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong.

1 Corinthians 16:1

in Christ our King,
New Heart[/b]

How are you doing, Tesh-bro :wave:

I found the following quotes interesting in light of your initial question:

Both these quotes came from WTs...of February 1884, and September 15, 1885.

My personal answer to the question: "Are the Witnesses Christians?" is:

Some are wheat and some are weeds, as individuals. As Jesus said in parable:

"Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’” -- Matthew 13:24-30

"Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen." -- Matthew 13:36-43

As for any "corporate" entity, and that includes the WT, none of them deserve the name Christian because they have wed themselves to a government in the process of becoming incorporated. How can they be the body of Christ? Just google 501 ( C ) 3.

I like what Jimmy said above:

love,
Rez:siskiss:

I suppose the rest was a real bore, eh? :D

Haven't had the pleasure, as I was never really much into the whole Trekkie thing. "Lost in Space" was more my gig. Never could take it seriously because of the WT indoctrination. But the more I learn about quantum physics, the less I think a lot of this stuff is fiction at all.

The "feeding on fear" thing reminded me of this absolutely wicked scene from "Virtuosity", where Russell Crowe, created in a laboratory and programmed with the personalities of the worst 150 serial killers in history, was supposed to be used just to train policemen, but he escapes from his virtual reality to the reality. He used fear to terrorize a night club full of hostages, conducting an elaborate symphony of screams and shrieks that seemed to be putting him into a state of nirvana.

Once I learned what feeds the demons, a lot of things started making a lot more sense to me.

Ciao,
Jimmy C.