Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello All my Friends....hope that you are all well.

I need some kind of encouragement, or prayers or something. I've been on CARM and felt close to moving on to being able to attend a gathering other than the KH.

I feel I know too much to return to the KH, and can not abide the constant diminishing of christ....but on the other hand I can't abide hearing about a burning hell....

I believe that Jesus is God in nature...but not that he is the same person as Jehovah....its like I'm stuck in between the trinity and the non trinity.

I hope someone has some good information or answers.

To the administrators here...if this is the wrong place for this thread please move it to the right one....

Maybe it should be in the prayer thread..I'm just at my wits end.

your sister in Christ

Sandi

PS..the only thing that keeps me rooted is the hope of being with Christ and seeing him face to face.:heartbeat:

I sustain myself with my hope that no justice will be forgotten by Jehovah, that i don't need to worry about dying from some random cause because Jehovah will make all things right, that there is a miracelous future waiting, that we have been given the chance to make our Fathers and mothers proud and that we have been given the uppertunity to run a God-marathon for truth in this seemingly God-less world.

is that everything? surely you probably have some more things that keep you rooted, right?

:hibye:yours truly,

Hello Spiceant....thankyou for the reply.....I don't really understand what you are saying though.....Yes...Its in Christ that I feel rooted and grounded as no religion...but I know we need to gather somewhere...to incite to love and fine works....i know that no one can tell me where to go...this is something I have to decide on my own...but there are so many issues which I can't resolve in my heart and mind...so many stumbling blocks...maybe I've put these stumbling blocks in my own way.....

Sandra,

First off I love you lots.   Again, I love you because you have a wonderful spirit.   When I heard you were going back to the meetings I secretly wondered what the outcome would be - I just in my mind couldn't picture it lasting.  Your love for Christ is too big to thrive in that environment.   I also knew you had tried some other religion's services and that didn't work out.  And where does that leave you - at home, feeling lonely and lacking.

Here is the problem that we run into as Christians.   Christianity by nature is about relationships.   Christianity is not a solo-endeavor.    Christianity is purposed to be expressed in a community, a Church or a congregation.     The natural environment or habit for a Christian is in a group, a family, a body, a spiritual temple.  

Now if we look at it like the animal kingdom.   You can take an animal out of their natural habitat and put them in isolation at a zoo. Sure they can survive but they start to lose their natural instincts - they are not 100%.    As Christians we can survive isolation but we can't full develop by ourselves.    Our Christ-like mind will be stifled and we will not be able to grow to the full measure of Christ.  

The simple truth is as Christians we need other Christians!   That you are conscious of this need for association is a sign of strength and not weakness.   So we can be happy for that!

But therein lies the problem - as Christians we may find that we are a poor match for the religious world around us.   We don't fit in at the Kingdom Halls and we don't fit with the other denominations.    If a person is content just to go somewhere for association that there are many choices and it doesn't really matter.    However the purpose for a true Christian Gathering, or Church, is to express Jesus Christ in spirit and truth and if that is our desire we may find the selection at the denomination buffet a little lacking.

If this is how you feel you are in good company.    I don't know if  you are familiar with George Barna but his company is the leading marketing/research firm for "Christian" religions.    Right now the biggest movement is out of the "Church-system".  People are exercising their faith in new ways, such as in houses, coffee-shops, and on the Internet.   He details this surprising trend in his book "Revolution".    

So there are options.   I know many of us have been conditioned to think in terms of organized religions and "Church-buildings" but this isn't how things started.   Church is quite specifically a gathering of the Body of Christ no matter where the background - be it a lake-shore, a market, or a home.    The trick is to find people around you who would desire coming together in such a manner.   And that is going to take prayer.   But the search is worth it.   There is absolutely nothing like coming together for sole purpose of expressing Jesus Christ.   Nothing.  Absolutely nothing will satsify your soul like that.    It is incredible to love Jesus but sharing that love in a family bumps things up to the next level - it's a ladder straight to Heaven.  We exit the wilderness and step into the promised land!  WONDERFUL! EXQUISITE! DELIGHTFUL!

I'm going to keep you in prayer and I'm PM-ing you some additional info.  

Your brother in Christ,

Anthony

P.S. - Personally I think stuck between Trinity and Non-Trinity is a good place to be.   Unfortunately the Witnesses and the other religions try to make it such a black and white issue where the truth is somewhere in between.   It also is a shame that many on either side don't really understand the complex doctrine to begin with and so their opinions on it are skewed from the start.

thankyou Anthony for your encouraging post and for the encouragement on the phone.....we all have so much in common with our struggles to live as EX JW discovering Christ as so much more than we were being taught as JW, and we know we can not openly give as much praise as we need to in regards to praising Christ....so we indeed have a dilemma.

I hope and pray that each and everyone of us is able to find closure and peace.:heartbeat::grouphug:

your sister in Christ

Sandi

Hi F C!! Yes we all are in this same "delima", being misfits in any organized religious structure, but lets look at what we do have.
Technology directed by Jahs spirit has brought us togeather, in a way before now impossible. We are not limited by distance or even time. Our "church" is meta-physical. Do you need eyes to see it? Has Christ not gathered you here? Do we need ears to hear the many voices. In what literal gathering can there be so many expressions of faith that are not stifled? Do you need arms and hands to feel the love? There are many hands and arms, can you feel the warmth?:cheekkiss:
M. 13: 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’:grouphug:

16 “However, happy are YOUR eyes because they behold, and YOUR ears because they hear. 17 For I truly say to YOU, Many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things YOU are beholding and did not see them, and to hear the things YOU are hearing and did not hear them.
Amen!
thank you to s.a and anthony

:clap: Hey Flowerchild!! :clap:

Hows it going there my beautiful sister! (seems I have a lot of those! Hehehe!!). As you know, I no longer go to Watchtower Religion -- I made friends with an ex pastor, who works with me, and he invited me to come along and start to attend a small Bible group -- they are Dispensationalists -- they believe in the Trinity, things like that.

On Thursday night, I told the guy from my work that Dispensationalism simply isnt for me -- not that I think it is wrong, and I am right or anything -- its more that my views on things such as interpretation of Revelation, the Kingdom, Heavenly Hope, things like that -- have changed so drastically (for which I am thankful to my Father and Christ), that to go back to anything that resembles Orthodox paradigm, in any way (that includes Watchtower religion) for me, is to step back into the dark age. I feel I am really making the Truth my own!! WOO HOO!! He asked me to write down what I have disagreements on -- and I was like, let me see...Babylon is all in the mind (system, spirit of the world etc..), personal Great Tribulation and Armageddon with external collective composite, all on earth, things like that!! Hehehe!!

Upon telling him this, I told him that I had learnt some awesome things -- one of them, was the importance of being with other Christians, no matter what they believe -- because in my mind, doctrine dont matter squat -- we can argue till we are black and blue about doctrinal differences, yet what is the most important thing of all? Its Truth!! Its Love! Real Love! Love that emanates from the Father, and is reflected by us, back to Him! That is the Truth!!

Another thing I have learnt, is that I believe Jesus is God -- as in, Jesus showed Jehovah in sentient form -- Jehovah (Esoteric Superconsciousness) was shown by Jesus (true nature of both Esoteric Superconsciousness and Sentient Consciousness -- spiritual and physical). This dont make Jesus equal to Jehovah, or that Jesus is Jehovah -- not at all! I sort of see things like Russian dolls -- Jehovah is the biggest one!

Now, I aint going to prove this with scriptures. Try not to do your head in over it Sandi. At the end of the day -- none of this even matters anyway -- its all in the mind Sister!! Hehehe!!

I have thought about going back to Watchtower religion -- but quite frankly -- to me it would be like listening to burning hellfire fantasies. Im quite happy with Spirit and Truth -- plus, you are never really alone -- Jah has His Angels everywhere -- and I would suggest reading Joshua 1:9, everyday!

:thumbsup: Go Jesus!! :thumbsup:

:friends: Go Jehovah!! :friends:

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

PS -- Its so good to see you mate!!

Dear Flowerchild :giverose:,

I have read an article about home bible studies on the increase, and how it is becoming popular Christians to move away from worship in a church to having studies at home. These groups are smalled groups (I think up to 8 families) and as they grow large in numbers, they split into 2. There is no heirarchy and no one is in charge. The members can belong to different denomination: the only criteria is that they are Christians.

Maybe you can find such a group or even create one? :love::coffeeread::detective: You are a warm and loving person and I am sure there are many who feel stifled by the tradional structure and would welcome such a cozy arrangement.

Love to you sister and prayers that God eases your heart and helps you along your journey..:love:

Lou

Hello My dear Friends...e-magine, Loyalty and Beau...I'm amazed at how much better I feel now....and it's all because of beautiful brothers and sisters as yourselves...I do love you guys so much:grouphug:

Beau....I agree with so much that you are saying....I believe the trinity is a way to TRY to explain the unexplainable....but falls way short....the Father , Son and Holy Spirit are 100 trillion times more than we can comprehend them to be.....we could not bear it at this time to comprehend it...but in time we will know what things are and in time we will know what we will be like when we see Christ Jesus then we will know....I have such a longing to see him , to be with him...I adore him ...praise him...worship him

I thankyou all for being such a precious blessing and a gift....God does answer prayers each and every day...and not always in the way we think it will be...but you know that he has answered your prayers, and that in itself is a gift.

I love you guys:hug::cry:

your sister in Christ Jesus Always

Sandi

Hi Sandra:heartbeat::thumbup:

I have been thinking of you lately and missing your wonderful posts that point me straight to Christ!

I understand your frustration...All we want to do is talk about Jesus with others, share his beauty and the gifts that he gives...But it seems all these complications get in the way.

Please know that even though I am not around the corner, I desire onesness with Jesus just as you.  He is a body, is he not.:)

Soothing and balm for your spirit will be in my prayers.

Love
Lynn

Hi dear Flowerchild,

To my amazement the small Bible group I began attending last year do not focus on doctrine. Hellburning, the Trinity etc are not mentioned. Each week a person chooses a subject - anything they wish - and goes to work on researching from our Bible, typing out main scriptures, presented to the group, then everyone joins in the discussion. Easy-peasy:cheer:
One does not have to be in total agreement with everyone else on a spiritual matter and this is expressed lovingly.
Independent thought is a definite 'yes' in this group. Dependent towards Jesus and his sacrifice for mankind and his position as the head - yes again.
No person is shunned or disfellowshipped for expressing something different I have found. Each individual has a unique relationship with God and his Son.

It does take .....time..., heaps of time to adjust after a lifetime of WT structured thought. It is different. I have not totally deleted out my JW background and what I was taught - it runs on in the background of my mind still and I think it always will.

Love,
Tessa

Hi Sandra

I know how you feel and it is funny you brought up this topic. I just wrote a small commentary about whether or not Jesus should be worshipped. Then I come here and you post about being in betweent the trinity and not trinity. Check out what I wrote on my Biblical Insights blog and let me know what you think. I just published it then I came on here and found this thread. :shocked:

All comments are welcome about it.



Chuck

Goodmorning dear brothers and sisters Lynn, Tessa and Chuck....so wonderful to read your posts....

chuck.....I've come to believe the trinity is a way to explain the unexplainable....and Jehovah...Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 100 trillions times even more than the trinity....that all our finite minds can do is limit a limitless God to our own limited understanding...I will read you thoughts...on your blog...

Hello Tessa...it sounds like such a good thing with the home bible study..I've talked to some friends who are doing home bible studies....it must be good to have the association and not feel isolated....God bless you and thankyou so much for the encouragement.

Dear Lynn...its so true JW are conditioned to be afraid of coming to Know Jesus.....we are afraid of giving him too much...but we can't give him too much...as it all goes to the Father.....how many times does the scriptures say.....ALL TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER....and we know dear sis that Jesus is the only way to the Father....as Jesus means the way....the life and the truth....this is what he means for us.

I love each and everyone of you and am thankful we have been able to give strength to one another....as it's an ordeal coming out of the WTS and the way the WTS is set up we would be isolated and alone....but here we all are for one another....

your friend and sister in Christ always

Sandi

:cheekkiss: Dearest Sandi :hug:-
I've also missed your posts here very much - but I know you just need time, or rather MUST take the time, however long it takes, to sort thru things on your own. And as Tessa said - it's difficult, and maybe even impossible for some, to completely overcome the influence the society has had on our thinking and reasoning abilities. Will I myself ever get past thinking, "...but the society says...":readthis:? I hold out hope!
Just yesterday(ruined my whole day and woke up this AM still thinking about it) my one friend at the KH who was still agreeable to being my friend, gave me this ultimatum over the phone - "return to Jehovah"(oh how I loathe that saying) "and to the meetings or you can't be my 'spiritual friend'. It's your choice and you must choose. Do you want me to pick you up for the meeting Sunday?". I said "no" and she said "Well, then - have a good life and I love you." This, after reading me a WT article about the org being the ONLY one doing any evangelizing in the world today, and how one MUST be a part of it to be saved from imminent judgement. Cut and dried, outright whitewash.
Well, she has a pretty pushy personality and she really thinks, as taught by the society, that she was trying to save me 'from the fire'. I can't hold that against her, she's been mislead to think that is love. :( It doesn't feel like love tho'...
And so... I am finally going to write my letter to Bethel explaining my stance - they will send it on to the cong - they will ask me 'THE question' and I will be formally disfellowshipped. I simply can't take it anymore - this fence-sitting with my former friends - having them hope I might someday rejoin them at the KH. It's been over 5 years... it's high time I put it straight with no more bush-beating. My mind and heart are already approaching a more peaceful place. Kinda like being forced to go somewhere you don't really want to go, but then being thankful, after-the-fact, that you went. :blush::thumbup: Keep working at it and praying hard about it, sis - you will come to your own place of peace of mind, I'm certain. :friends: Don't worry so much about what you don't know right now - work with what you do know and cover the rest with love. :love:
I'm going to start a home-study Bible group here at my home - even if it's just for my daughter and grandkids. We'll focus on Jesus' teachings and the revelation of Our Father's great love and how to apply those principles in our own lives.
That's where I'm at and here I go...! ;)
I love you dearly - and you know I'm not just mouthing those words - I truly do - and I wish you lived closer - you could come to my house and we'd want you to lead the singing! :whistle: It is sad that we aren't closer geographically - but it's also amazing how we're drawn together over all these miles by our love for God and Christ and our desire to know Them in truthfullness and humility. Our love for Them - it's a beautiful thing. :heartbeat: And Their love for us is an overwhelmingly wonderful and awesomely gorgeous thing!:heartbeat::heartbeat::heartbeat::heartbeat::heartbeat:
Keep on keepin' on, my sister - :peace:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:detective: ps - Chuck - I just looked at your blog and didn't see your new commentary - I must be blind.... what's the title?

Oh it's on my Biblical insights blog which is in the links section of the blog address below.