Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello to everyone at Paradise Cafe:

I'm "Fugitive1" and I'm new here at Paradise Cafe. I just recently learned of this board's existence because someone posted a link to this board at Beliefnet where I am a member, so I decided to join you guys here at Paradise Cafe. It seems like a nice, pleasant board, at least to me.

Just so you will know, I am not a Jehovah's Witness nor have I ever been one. But all my immediate family are Jehovah's Witnesses and have been for years. (When I was a youth, I went to all the meetings and all. So, I'm thoroughly familiar with the teachings of JWs.) However, I'm not completely convinced Jehovah's Witnesses really have the truth, but I'm sure you know how that goes.

Anyway, while reading at Beliefnet, I noticed a good question posed to JWs about the identity of the Rider of the White Horse in Revelation 6:1, 2. What I would like to know, is your opinion of some information posted on this board (beliefnet) about this verse. (I'm "Detroit Intellect" over there.), How do you see the following information presented about the identity of the Rider of the White Horse (Rev.6:1, 2), as I have never seen it discussed before. I'm asking here, since over at the other board, JWs have the habit of AVOIDING difficult questions, if you know what I mean. So, I don't expect much of a response to the question.

I hope posting this info at Paradise Cafe is okay by board rules. (Thanks!)

Here is the information, from which my question is drawn:

--------------------------------snip------------------

Hi Newtonian,

Just thought I'd ask you while you are here, and since you are an active Jehovah's Witnesses and all, how do you and JWs explain Jesus Christ sitting upon Jehovah's Throne for close to 2,000 years, and yet all that while, he was NOT to be considered a "conqueror" in Jehovah God's eyes?

Finished Mystery (1969), p.191 simply asserts:

"At the time of his message to the Laodicean congregation, about the year 96 C.E., Jesus Christ had already SAT DOWN WITH HIS HEAVENLY FATHER ON HIS THRONE and at his right hand. (Acts 2:32-36; 7:55, 56; 1 Peter 3:22) But since 1914 C.E. and since his installation as king to reign in the midst of his enemies in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1-6, he grants to his conquering followers to sit on his heavenly throne with him as reigning King."

Also, didn't Jesus himself actually say in the first century to the Laodicean Congregation, as of 96 CE according to the WTBTS, he himself was, in fact, a "Conqueror"? (Rev. 3:21)

If so, why are Jehovah's Witnesses saying Jesus only became a "conqueror" (Rev. 6:1, 2) only since the year of 1914? Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses and the WTBTS OUTRIGHT CONTRADICTING Jesus' own words here at Rev. 3:21, in effect calling Jesus a liar?

Revelation 3:21 New World Translation clearly says: To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

....just wondering.

Janet

PS: How can Jesus help Laodicean christians get their "crown" ... if he has NOT himself, received his? Does that make sense to you?

Isn't that kind of like a person being a lifeguard at the beach, but NOT himself being able to swim? Who can he help as a lifeguard, if he is not a master at swimming himself?

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Fugitive1

Hi there :hibye: and welcome fugitive1! :thumbsup:

I hope that you will enjoy being here with us as we all seek to learn and grow as spiritual people wanting to serve our heavenly Father in spirit and TRUTH!!

I know we have a thread here somewhere on this very topic that speaks about this quite in depth ...

I for one am kind of thinking that rider isn't Christ Jesus but rather someone else ... with a 'different' kind of agenda ...

He too is a 'king' ... :king: of sorts ... or at least would like to be ... :blush:

I will try and see if I can find the thread that speaks about this and try to link it ...

LLEE is really good at 'finding' things!!:thumbsup:

Again a warm welcome with Christian love and bon appeitit :chef: :eat:

Your sis BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Okay ... here is one ...

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=4510

here is another ...

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=3125

Not sure if there are more right now ... but at least this can get you started! :giverose::coffeeread:

Enjoy and look forward to your take on this most fascinating and pertinent topic!

BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Good afternoon dear sis:

You beat the old lady:D Maybe next time :help:

Welcome Fugitive1! So happy you "found" us :cheer:

sis

I believe the rider on the white horse is Joseph.

One of the 12 leaders of the tribes of Israel.

One of the sons of Jacob.

Compare:


Revelation 6
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!” 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

Genesis 49
22 “Offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree, Joseph is the offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree by the fountain, that propels its branches up over a wall. 23 But the archers kept harassing him and shot at him and kept harboring animosity against him. 24 And yet his bow was dwelling in a permanent place, and the strength of his hands was supple. From the hands of the powerful one of Jacob, from there is the shepherd, the stone of Israel. 25 He is from the God of your father, and he will help you; and he is with the Almighty, and he will bless you with the blessings of the heavens above, with the blessings of the watery deep lying down below, with the blessings of the breasts and womb. 26 The blessings of your father will indeed be superior to the blessings of the eternal mountains, to the ornament of the indefinitely lasting hills. They will continue upon the head of Joseph, even upon the crown of the head of the one singled out from his brothers.

The both have bows, they both have crowns and they both play a significant role in the final days.

There is also reason to believe that Joseph is "the helper" mentioned in John 16.

25 He is from the God of your father, and he will help you


There is further reason to believe that he is one of the two witnesses:

Offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree, Joseph is the offshoot of a fruit-bearing tree by the fountain

Offshoot of a fruit bearing tree = Olive branch

by the fountain = tubes pouing forth golden liquid.


In Christ

abe

Welcome Fugitive1!

I,m happy you found us and hope you enjoy being a part of our little community of sheep. :sheepy:

BTW, Thanks for the link to the info on zech. over on beliefnet.

As for the rider of the white horse, briefly, at present I think that "he" is the eighth king set up by satan over the entire world. The same as the wild beast, the immense image of daniels vision, the king of the north, and the small horn of both daniel 7 and 8. Each of these scenes reveal detailed information to us so that we can identify what is really going on and wont get swept away in the deception of this NWO (or whatever you want to call it).

All the other horseman who are seen following the rider on the white horse are symbolizing the results of the first riders conquest over the earth. It is not going to be a nice time. But, thankfully, we know that the days will be cut short and that this evil king will not prevail. Then the Prince of Peace, our King Jesus Christ along with His Bride will take over all the affairs of governing our earth. :cheer:

:heartbeat:

:drinking: Jayme

This is an important point for witnesses, because it throws the whole understanding of Revelation out of line.
He is obviously bad due to the crowd he mixes with, and the NWT is a poor rendering. The rider on the white horse charges out conquering, bent on conquest. This is not the conqueror Jesus.
Add to this confusion the 1914 doctrine and is seems obvious that the WT has many things backwards, and their understanding of Revelation is a mess.

I reread you post and wanted to comment again on this:

I agree with your reasoning here. I have recently been doing research concerning psalm 110 and feel that indeed Christ Jesus has been sitting at His Fathers right hand AND ruling (as King) in the midst of His enemies since his ressurection and return to heaven. Notice how Paul applies the words of psalm 110:1 at 1 Cor. 15:25. Also note Jesus' own words at Matt. 28:18. "All authority" sounds like He is King to me, even though most people havnt acknowledged it thru the years. But eventually they will have to.

I will probably start a thread on this soon.

Jayme

Hey F1 - welcome and I hope you find a place here that helps you forward in knowledge and appreciation and is able to assist others to do the same as well. There are several great threads on this db that discuss this topic. Since I couldn't find any of them to refer the link - here's a slightly updated version of a post I did on this topic from a while ago that has my viewpoint and that reflects the views of several others here too.

There are several reasons why I don’t think the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6:2 could be Jesus. The first reason is – why would Jesus be heading up a group of murderous riders - that are bringing plague and death to the very persons that Jesus came to rescue from all that? Who has brought such misery to the earth for thousands of years now – and on such a large scale? Revelation says later that God comes to bring to ruin those ruining the earth, and certainly he brings an end to the ruinous conditions on the earth – not bring more of it – and upon the very persons that are helpless victims of the system to begin with?

Here is where I think John 17:3 helps us greatly, in that when we come to know God and his Son, we can honestly assume that they would never bring yet more misery to innocent victims as Satan has done.

The second reason is that the rider on a white horse of Revelation 6:2 and the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:12 - do not appear to be the same person. The rider of Revelation 19:12 is clearly Jesus, but he has on his head a diadēma - while the rider of Revelation 6:2 is wearing a stephanos. These are not the same kind of head gear and according to what I’ve read even indicate different things.

The third reason is that the Rev. 6:2 rider is carrying a bow, while the Rev. 19:12 rider has a long sword protruding out of his mouth – and the Rev 19:12 rider, again, is clearly Jesus. There are several places in Revelation where Jesus is described as having a “sharp long sword” protruding out of his mouth, including Rev. 1:16, which is obviously before Rev. 6:2. So why does the rider of Rev. 6:2 have different headgear and battle gear from Rev. 19:12? There are some possible explanations out there of course, such as that Jesus is just beginning his ride of conquest, and has not yet been given the kingly diadēma yet, but this doesn’t seem consistent to me. But Jesus in my mind comes not in the context of a conqueror but a savior, thus a main reason I see the Rev. 6:2 rider as a brutish entity of some sort (I think I know who this rider is).

Taking a look at Jesus and the riders with him in Revelation 19:12 - note the contrast:

"…and he judges and carries on war in righteousness." Revelation 19:11

"Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen." Revelation 19:14

The person with the stephanos and the riders with him look like murderous cut throats to me, contrasted with the ones on white horses of Rev 19:14 that are dressed in fine clean linen - seen accompanying Jesus - who is wearing a diadēma.



v r



Revelation 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a *crown *4735 was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

a *crown *4735
stephanos
1) a crown
a) a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank
1) the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games
b) metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness
c) that which is an ornament and honour to one


Revelation 19:12
His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many *crowns *1238; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

many *crowns *1238
diadēma
1) a diadem
a) a blue band marked with white which Persian kings used to bind on the turban or tiara
b) the kingly ornament for the head, the crown

Hello Fugitive1, and welcome :hibye:

I used to think this was our Lord too - lingering WatchTower thinking perhaps. Even though it is our Lord who opens that seal of the scroll, it still could be... the image being after King David:

Accordingly he struck him down so that he died. 16 David then said to him:

The bloodguilt for you be upon your own head, because your own mouth has testified against you, saying:

● David ==> young man in tatters, an A•mal´ek•ite
‘I myself definitely put the anointed of Jehovah to death.’
17 And David proceeded to chant this dirge over Saul and Jon´a•than his son 18 and to say that the sons of Judah should be taught ‘The Bow’.

2nd Samuel 1:16-18

Alternatively, perhaps it could refer to the force of Christian teaching, rather than a person.

Just a few thoughts.

Acts5v29

Welcome to the board Fugitive, and thanks for giving us a little of your background. It's always good to see where someone is coming from.:hibye:

I'm going to post a quote from man hu's (Vicky) thread on this topic. We've had a few discussions on this subject in the past and I think this snippet covers our conclusions.

The Rider on the White Horse thread

Rez,

I think man hu has made some good discernments here.

These seven seals have been granted to Jesus Christ (the lamb) to open as an honour; " you are worthy to take the scroll and open its seven seals".

The first seal - The rider of the white horse conquers and has a crown. This happens before the second seal where peace is taken away from the earth.

For this reason it is my opinion that the rider of the White Horse has benevolent intentions which succeed.

The opening of the remaining seals does appear to bring many frightening calamities to the earth however, these are not Satanic or man made disasters.

The scripture clearly shows that these are also Jesus Christs doing.

Revelation 6
“Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So yes, the earth will experience a great deal of suffering and it will indeed be a part of Jesus Christs judgment.

The wrath of the lamb!

Revelation 6
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?”

All of these riders and the remaining seals are Jesus Christ's doing.

This also means that the seventh seal and the seven trumpets which follow are all orchestrated by Jesus Christ as well.

If this is understood then there is good reason to believe that the Rider of the White Horse is THE Helper; "he is from God and will help you". (Genesis Ch49)

Jesus Christ IS the one who sends him:

John 16
I will send him to YOU. 8 And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

If you carefully examine Revelation Chapter 6, it really is all about sin, righteousness and judgment!

So yes, I think Jesus Christ is sending a literal person, one out of the 12 sons of Jacob will help his other 11 brothers and their tribes.


the one singled out from his brothers - Genesis Ch49


In Christ

abe

the rider of the white horse and its army are Christ and those who he redeemed to battle with Him. The reason I know this, is because the rider of the white horse is called Faithful and True. I saw the rider in a vison . He had white hair , and bright blue eyes. He told me he was happy with me, and he gave me also his name. He told me to feed His Doves. This was in 2007.

This is the vision ...

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. Rev. 19:11

Psalm 96:13 Before the LORD, for He is coming, For He is coming to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness And the peoples in His faithfulness.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked





Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

Revelation 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Those redeemed from the earth will fight with the white horse and His army. This is what they are called to do. We are His army on earth. We are the living stones, with the heart of flesh, no longer with hearts of stone.

My vision of Leviathan in 2008...

I saw a giant head of a giant dragon coming out of the sea, and the inside of His head was labeled like a science project and it said NETWORK. There were 7 parts. I then saw a giant fist come down out of heaven and crush with a mighty blow that shook the earth with big earthquakes. This fist crushed each and every part.

the parts:

The heart of stone...religions
the governments
the merchants
the lovers of pleasures and revilers
the kingdoms
immoral movie industry


then I was shown the final part very up close for my eyes zoomed right up to it..it was labeled Brain...and I saw a giant pyrimid with the all seeing eye...this eye was under the water, and dead.

Isaiah 27:1 says, "In that day of the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea"

Psalm 74:14 says, "Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness"

rev 3:5-14

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


http://www.bibleandscience.com/science/images/lotan.jpg

Hi Sis,

I think you might be confusing the white horse in chapter 19 with the one in chapter 6. The former is Christ, the latter most definitely not.

Peace and Love,
Jimmy C.

Just as Jesus came in the beginning 3-1/2 years of the deciple's tribulation, so it will be in the first 3-1/2 of the end times tribulation. The reason I believe this is because this is the first seal judgment.

1 Peter 4:17

17. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


1. I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2..I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

(Ps.147:10)
He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: He taketh no pleasure in the legs of a man. 11. the LORD delights in those who fear him,
who put their hope in his unfailing love.

To ride a white horse symbolizes to completly harness the strength of your body or beast to do righteous work. Overcomers ride white horses because their body is in submission to the spiritual man who submits to the Holy Spirit. Those who walk by faith do not give authority to the mind of the flesh to rule , but instead rule over it.