Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I was speaking with a JW relative recently who asked me what I thought Zech 8:23 meant. He believes this passage teaches that in the last days God will have one true organization to which people will come, seeing that God is with only them.

This scripture has been on my "to do" list for a while, so here goes.

Zechariah 8:23 (American Standard Version)

23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

New World Translation:

23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”

In my research I found that the NWT was the only translation, of those I looked at, to insert the word "people" after "you". I have not done an exhaustive comparison but I did check a dozen or so other translations. So, why did they do this?

I decided to check a hebrew to english interlinear. In some the word "you" is not even included and in others the word "you" is said to be in the plural tense.

This is most likely the reason the NWT adds the word "people after the "you", to indicate the plural tense. As if the plural "you" is indicating more than one person. But is this correct?

When looking back at the rest of the text the "man who is a Jew" whose skirt the "10 men" are taking hold of is singular. Why would it suddenly change to a group of people? The "you" in the later part of the verse is the same as the "man" in the first part.

The "man who is a Jew" seems to be Jesus. So a possibility for the plural tense of the word "you" could be that it is indicating honor, or an elevated position. Could this be true? I have seen were the plural tense of words has been used in this way before.

If this is the case then the text would seem to be pointing foreward to the time when all men who want to (10 men, completeness), would be brought into a covenant position with God thru Christ Jesus without having to be of Isrealite birth.

It seems possible that the WT added the word "people" to the text because it could then be used as a proof text showing their organization as being the only ones who God is with and whom all must "take hold of" to gain salvation.

If so then this would be another case of putting men in the rightful place of Christ, since the text seems pretty clear that the "10 men" follow "a man" (Jesus) to salvation, because God is with Him (Jesus).

Please notice Matt. 3:16,17:

16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Also John 14:6:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, who is the "Jew", the "man" whom we must "take hold of the skirt" of, the only one who alone "God is with"? It is our only Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Not a corporate organization.


Thats all I've got so far. Any help or comments on this are greatly appreciated. :read:

:heartbeat:

Jayme

Excellent research/reasoning,(imo) jayme! Thank you.

Christian love,

gogh

:coffeeread:

Good morning jayme! :hibye::coffeeread:

I read this thread last night and have been thinking about it ever since! :huh::read:

I too agree that the addition of the word 'people' not only is an 'addition' to the text ... but that it changes the meaning and focus of the one who is really important in this verse ... that of course being the 'man' or the 'Jew'!

I decided to look of several other Bible translations, and noted that they too did NOT add the word 'people' here in this verse (of course the societ will say that is because they are 'blinded' or don't have the 'true' translation ... ;) )

So, it would do us good to perhaps see WHY they may have added this for those of 'read' here and see why they may have ADDED this word ...

Perhaps it may be good then to find out what our brothers and sister think, or maybe WHO do they think of when they read 'grab hold of the skirt of a JEW' ... WHO does the 'man' or the 'Jew' picture ...?

Notice this article ...

w96 1/1 p. 22 “Love Truth and Peace”!

“Ten Men Out Of All the Languages of the Nations”

18 For the last time in the eighth chapter of Zechariah, we read: “This is what Jehovah of armies has said.” What is Jehovah’s final proclamation? “It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: ‘We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.’” (Zechariah 8:23) In Zechariah’s day, natural Israel was God’s chosen nation. In the first century, however, Israel rejected Jehovah’s Messiah. Hence, our God chose “a Jew”—a new Israel—as his special people, “the Israel of God” made up of spiritual Jews. (Galatians 6:16; John 1:11; Romans 2:28, 29) The final number of these was to be 144,000, chosen from among mankind to reign with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—Revelation 14:1, 4.

19 Most of these 144,000 have already died faithful and have gone to their heavenly reward. (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; Revelation 6:9-11) A few remain on earth and these rejoice to see that the “ten men” who choose to go along with the “Jew” are indeed “a great crowd . . . out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.”—Revelation 7:9; Isaiah 2:2, 3; 60:4-10, 22.

ka chap. 14 pp. 279-280 pars. 51-52 Earthly Subjects of the Kingdom of God

51 ... This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”—Zechariah 8:20-23.

52 In the fulfillment of this prophecy, the man whose skirt is taken hold of by these men of “all the languages of the nations” is a spiritual Jew, namely, one of the 144,000 spiritual Israelites who are spoken of in Revelation 7:4-8, just before the apostle John’s vision of the numberless “great crowd,” the members of which come “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.”

w05 12/1 pp. 23-24 par. 7 People “out of All the Languages” Hear the Good News

7 The Bible foretold a time when people of diverse languages would hear its life-giving message. Describing how true worship would attract many, Zechariah prophesied: “It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew [spirit-anointed Christian, part of “the Israel of God”], saying: ‘We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.’” (Zechariah 8:23; Galatians 6:16) And relating what he saw in a vision, the apostle John said: “Look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9) We have seen such prophecies coming true!

w04 7/1 p. 11 ‘Go and Make Disciples’

Out of All the Languages”

12 Making disciples in all nations is a challenge not only geographically but also linguistically. Through the prophet Zechariah, Jehovah foretold: “It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: ‘We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.’” (Zechariah 8:23) In the larger fulfillment of this prophecy, the “man who is a Jew” represents the remnant of anointed Christians, while the “ten men” represent the “great crowd.” (Revelation 7:9, 10; Galatians 6:16) This great crowd of Christ’s disciples would be found in many nations, and as Zechariah noted, they would be speaking numerous languages. Does the modern-day history of God’s people illustrate that aspect of discipleship? Yes, it does.

Now, the above article are of course the 'most current' (and is that not what our brothers are told to focus on?) ... however notice the SCRIPTURAL reference that is referred to here back in 1959 ...

w59 5/15 p. 295 par. 7 Christians Need Accurate Knowledge

Clearly it is not upon Christendom that the prophecy is being fulfilled that says: “In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”—Zech. 8:23, AS.


Here we notice that there is NO ADDITION of the word 'people' here in this verse ...

So, does this mean then that they had another meaning for this verse KNOWING, that this word was not there? Apparently not ... :( for even earlier notice what they ADDED to the SAME TRANSLATION ...:readthis:

w56 11/15 p. 699 par. 9 Blessings Through Service

9 Those out of the many nations see today that Jehovah is with us and will hasten to get to know more about Jehovah’s ways and escape the coming wrath of Almighty God at Armageddon. Jehovah’s people are in the limelight for this purpose, so that those who escape from the nations will know where to go[/b]. The prophetic word written for this time says: “It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come peoples, and the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to entreat the favor of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of Jehovah. Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, [b]that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you [people], for we have heard that God is with you.” This does not mean the natural Jew, but the favored people of Jehovah today, the spiritual Israelites and their companions.—Zech. 8:20-23, AS.

So, here we see the subtle addition of the thought of the word PEOPLE being put in and thus we can have the 'meaning' of the entire CHANGED from that of being CHRIST being the SAVIOR of mankind ... to the ANOINTED being the 'savior' of mankind!! :angry:

In reading this I couldn't help but think of another account that sounded so similar in its SAVING or CURING POWER ...

Matt. 9:19-22 ...

19 Then Jesus, getting up, began to follow him; also his disciples did. 20 And, look! a woman suffering twelve years from a flow of blood came up behind and touched the fringe of his outer garment; 21 for she kept saying to herself: “If I only touch his outer garment I shall get well.” 22 Jesus turned around and, noticing her, said: “Take courage, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And from that hour the woman became well.

So, what was it that 'cured' or 'saved' this woman from her terrible sickness?

Was it not FAITH IN CHRIST (a Jew and descendant of Judah) and in HIS ability to save/cure her?

So, IMHO, this verse is telling us to LOOK TO CHRIST for our salvation, our peace NOT and self important and self centered group of men or and 'organization' who continue to take on the role of being 'man's only hope of refuge!

Our refuge and hope can only lie in ONE place ... a place that has been set out for us from the beginning ...

CHRIST JESUS!!

End of rant ... :redface:

Thanks so very much dear jayme for helping to open our eyes to this scripture! :read:

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Just to follow up BR's fine research, I think that Zech. 8:23 was making reference to the seed of Abraham. My reason for this is in Paul's argument (Galatians 3:15-29) where he says first of all, "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: 'And to seeds,' as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: 'And to your seed,' who is Christ."

Notice how he first argues to first emphasize the seed as being singular in the person of Christ? Then, after further reasoning, he concludes with the following:

"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person<---inserted yet understood] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

May we all be good Jews now and not mess with the seed ...

Good research, peeps!:grouphug:

sw

We find so much of this from the WTS... they take a section of words from a long discussion, and apply it to themselves, while disregarding all else that was said.

Consider, for example, verses 14-17 of Zechariah Chapter 8: "Thus says Jehovah the Almighty: ‘As I once thought to bring evil upon you, because your fathers provoked Me to rage, and since then I’ve not relented,’ says Jehovah the Almighty, ‘I’ve reconsidered and I am now ready, to do good to those in Jerusalem and Judah… so you must now be courageous! And these are the things you must do: You must each speak truth to your neighbors; make decisions that bring about peace; you must bring justice to your gates! Against your neighbor you must never consider, doing what’s evil in your hearts. And do not love lying oaths, for I detest all such things,’ said Jehovah the Almighty."

As you can see, this was a discussion of Jehovah's condemnation of Judah and Israel for their lawless ways, and His promise to return them to their land during the time of Darius... but only if they chose to repent. This actually happened thereafter, and many people did in fact become Jewish converts. So, the prophecy was fulfilled back then.

Now, have Jehovah's Witnesses in fact recognized that they were rejected by Jehovah for their evil ways, and allowed to be taken into captivity for 70 years before their restoration? Nope!

I suspect that this prophecy will have a greater fulfillment though, in the future. However, it will likely be on all those who claim to be in a covenant relationship Jehovah, but who are proven unfaithful (Christendom?). But first they will be attacked and destroyed (the destruction of "the Great Babylon?"). And the words that your relative is quoting, are speaking of a return to God's favor on the part of the "remnant" of the righteous ones who survive.

This theme is repeated many times throughout the writings of the Prophets, and it so clearly hasn't happened yet... nope, not in 1918, 1919, or in whatever bogus date the WTS wants to pull out of a hat. For, they don't claim to be the righteous among unfaithful Israel, and they don't claim to have been the unfaithful who were carried off as captives. For the scripture to apply to them, they have to fit in somewhere throughout the entire prophecy, not in just a few select words.

Uh huh, I smell agenda... :fart:
:thumbup: thanks Jayme for your research - it's right-on! The OT prophecies are simply overflowing with references to our Lord - it's about him! I thought too, 'THE Jew' must be Jesus.

I agree! Not only is the Father with him - He's in him: but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." John 10:38

'BruisedReed' said: So, IMHO, this verse is telling us to LOOK TO CHRIST for our salvation, our peace NOT and self important and self centered group of men or and 'organization' who continue to take on the role of being 'man's only hope of refuge!

Our refuge and hope can only lie in ONE place ... a place that has been set out for us from the beginning ...

CHRIST JESUS!!

Rant on sis! :cheer: It still amazes me - how it's really all about him - and faith in him! :love:

:peace:

Hi Jayme and all,

Thank you so much Jayme,

yes, sadly the Watchtower seem to try to capitalize upon every scripture that has the slightest resemblance of what seems to support its doctrine.

However Jayme, I say however, I have to caution everyone before rushing to conclude regarding the text under discussion.

First off, I would reason that someone can grab the skirt of a man but say that he/ she wishes to follow him because he have heard that God is with the people the person whose skirt he is grabbing belongs to. It is like if i grab smoldering wick's skirt and scream, that I want to be close to him because I have heard that God is with People in Vancouver, or grabbing the skirt of Digital_punk and plead that I want to stat with him because I have heard that God is with aussies.

But my argument is not based on semantics, it is based on scriptures.

I myself was very curious when I read jayme's argument, as to what the Watchtower might have twisted here. May be it is because I so wish to catch the Watchtower while making such crimes.

But I was disappointed in this case.

Now, I have seven ( huh, interesting number) different Bible translations in German at home. One of them is even an original Luther translation from 1545. And to my amazement, all of them has the word "you" translated in a plural form. I was amazed because one can't confuse "you" by writing it in small or capital letters. The German word for the singular "you" is either "Ihnen" or "dir", while the plural is an unmistakable "euch". In all translations it it rendered as "euch".

So, while the Watchtower has undoubtedly tried to pinpoint on its "annointed" doctrine by streching the text by including "people", it might not changed the context.

:heartbeat:

AR

But the plurality doesn't necessarily indicate a multitude of 'you' - there may only be two of 'you'... (?) God and 'you', the Jew, are two. :P

Same difficulties with Elohim isn't there?

Whatever it says, I'm sure it's not saying anything about the WT!

:peace:

Hi Willa,:hibye:

But God is not Jew, is He?:D

:heartbeat:

AR

Great comments! :thumbsup:

BR :sheepy: Thanks for posting the WT articles. I hadnt got around to searching those out yet. :thumbup:

JWHVACR, Thanks for your help here. I read the whole of the chapter a reasoned as you did. We have to look at the whole and consider context. :read:

SW, thanks for tieing in Galations. That is a very fine point!

Hey Willa!

So true! :D

Hi AR! You bring up a good point, one that I was wishing to discuss further. In my post I was presenting possibilities and trying not to be dogmatic. As you correctly stated the YOU is in the plural form. Now we must consider why.

I proposed that, in order to fit the singular nature of the "man" who was being spoken of firstly, that the YOU was in plural form to signify honor or the elevated position of this "man" and not multiple persons.

I am just considering this as a possibilty.:thinking: Any insight or discussion on it is very welcome. Anyone?

Thanks everyone! :grouphug:

Jayme

Hi again jayme ... :hibye:

Just a couple of more quick thoughts to ponder :huh: before I have to run to town ...

In rereading over this verse again I noticed something else ... :read::shocked::scratchhead:

Notice again how the NWT not only WORDS this scripture ... but the difference in SPELLING from other Bibles ... which could perhaps be looked into for authenticity in translating correctly ...

Zech. 8:23 ...


(New World Translation) "This is what Jehovah of armies has said, 'It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: "We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people."'"

Now let us look at some other translations ... :read:

(ASV) Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

(Bishops) Thus saith the Lorde of hoastes: In that time shall ten men (out of al maner of language of the Gentiles) take one Iewe by the hemme of his garment, and say, We wyll go with you: for we haue heard that God is among you.


(DRB) Thus saith the Lord of hosts: In those days, wherein ten men of all languages of the Gentiles shall take hold, and shall hold fast the skirt of one that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


(ESV) Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

(GW) This is what the LORD of Armies says: In those days ten people from every language found among the nations will take hold of the clothes of a Jew. They will say, "Let us go with you because we have heard that God is with you."

(KJV-1611) Thus saith the Lord of hosts, In those daies it shall come to passe, that ten men shall take holde out of all languages of the nations, euen shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Iew, saying, Wee will goe with you: for we haue heard that God is with you.

(AS) “In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

Did you notice the difference in rendering the word 'you' here ...?

The NWT uses all CAPITALS ... while the rest use SMALL letters!

Would this then not make a difference in seeking to understand the proper meaning of this scripture? :scratchhead: :huh:

Also, another point I noticed is this ...

In speaking of the 'Jew' who skirt all nations would want to hold on to notice various terms that is used to describe 'him' ... and isn't it always in the SINGULAR as well?

a Jew
one Iewe
him that is a Jew
will come to one Jew
a man who is a Jew

The Hebrew word for 'him' is this ...

H376 אישׁ

'îysh eesh

Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.

Anyway, not sure if this helps in reasoning on this scripture ... talk later alligators! :blush::grouphug:

Luv BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

HI Jayme:

I want to give you some information that you might find interesting from the Beliefnet forum. It is on the same scripture subject Zech 8:23. Here is the link:

[burney group link removed by Admin.]

Detroit Intellect/fugitive1

IMHO, THE MAN in question has to be no other than Jesus Christ.
However, it seems to me that the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. The context makes these points clear.

20 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will yet be that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will come; 21 and the inhabitants of one [city] will certainly go to [those of] another, saying: “Let us earnestly go to soften the face of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I myself will go also.” 22 And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of Jehovah.’
...Proof
Acts 2:5. As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem JEWS, reverent men, from every nation. (there to seek the face of Jehovah)
while there, they heard testimony from other men about Jesus.

23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU {people}, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU {people}.”’”
...In those days many people of the nations became Christians by putting faith in him, and spoke in different tongues!
The woman with a flow of blood was healed by her faith, symbolized by her clutching the hem of his skirt.
Jesus was not only the zenith of all men, but the only man who was a JEW in the fullest sense, he being the only man to fullfill the law.
Even Pilate, himself a "king" of the nations, identifies Jesus as the MAN, Jn. 19:5, "Look, the MAN!" Then he had it posted, vs 19,
[/i]"Jesus, the King of the JEWS"

On BibleGateway, out of 18 English language Bible versions - not one instance is the "you" in capitals as a plural "YOU". In them all also - a man, a Jew. It's the action of that one Jew which makes me feel it is indeed symbolic of the Christ, through whom the nations(of Gentiles) did 'grab hold' of the covenant relationship with God, which he accomplished by his death and resurrection. I still believe this verse is a fulfilled prophesy about the Christ.(edited to add - :yes: what 'emagine' said! :thumbup: )

Zech 8:12 For there shall the seed produce peace and prosperity; the vine shall yield her fruit and the ground shall give its increase and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit and possess all these things. 13 And as you have been a curse and a byword among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so will I save you, and you shall be a blessing. Fear not, but let your hands be strong and hardened.

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O Daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you; He is [uncompromisingly] just and having salvation [triumphant and victorious], patient, meek, lowly, and riding on a donkey, upon a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 And I will cut off and exterminate the war chariot from Ephraim and the [war] horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off; and He shall speak the word and peace shall come to the nations, and His dominion shall be from the [Mediterranean] Sea to [any other] sea, and from the River [Euphrates] to the ends of the earth! 11 As for you also, because of and for the sake of the [covenant of the Lord with His people, which was sealed with sprinkled] covenant blood, I have released and sent forth your imprisoned people out of the waterless pit.

Zech 10:2 For the teraphim (household idols) have spoken vanity (emptiness, falsity, and futility) and the diviners have seen a lie and the dreamers have told false dreams; they comfort in vain. Therefore the people go their way like sheep; they are afflicted and hurt because there is no shepherd. 3 My anger is kindled against the shepherds [who are not true shepherds] and I will punish the goat leaders, for the Lord of hosts has visited His flock, the house of Judah, and will make them as His beautiful and majestic horse in the battle. 4 Out of him [Judah] shall come forth the Cornerstone*, out of him the tent peg, out of him the battle bow; every ruler shall proceed from him. 5 And they shall be like mighty men treading down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle, and they shall fight because the Lord is with them, and the [oppressor's] riders on horses shall be confounded and put to shame.

*footnote: Zechariah 10:4 This Messianic referent reminds one of the "Cornerstone" imagery of Ps. 118:22-23; Isa. 28:16; Matt. 21:42; Acts 4:11; Eph. 2:19-22; I Pet. 2:6-8. [AMP all]

:2cents: :peace: