Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Good point zoobear!

Actually, I'm not as inquisitional as you might think, for reasons you know as well as I. The WT was very good as slight-of-hand ... ie, by first feeding us with exposed lies of false religion and then building their own truth upon flawed logic and reason until trust is implicit. Then they surgically removed scriptures from their context to create an even greater lie, demanding trust over matters of pure speculation, threatening apostate expulsion and our rejection along with shunning from family and friends for not being complicit!

Is that not the recipe for our excessive suspicion over everything else that comes our way and smacks of the same kind of conspiracy? We have emerged as abused children from a cultish mother church and have no trust. So, everything you say is true, Farhat! I couldn't agree more!

Fugitive 1, you are in my prayers if you are still captive to living waters. My apologies to you if you are free of them. And happy are you if you are free from all other man-and-devil-made doctrine. Whatever cannot be explicitly proven by scripture is merely a someone's measure of faith and speculation.

sw

Hi Fug!. I gave thought to those scriptures, and they seem to point to Jesus, either in his first manifestation, or in his future one. Neither scripture rule out Jesus as the "Man".
So I also ask, what ARE your thoughts?

Hi Bruised Reed:

You asked:

Actually, I don’t have ANY idea who he is!

The prophecies suggest that he comes in the “final part of the days.” (Isaiah 2 & Micah 4 NWT) But your guess is as good as mine on this one. And it does not seem to be any certainty among the others that I have talked to so far, about the identity of this "Man" or "Jew".

You see, ever since I first read this prophecy about 2-3 years ago in my own bible, I’ve been pondering this question of Zechariah 8:23 and how it applies. My JW relative told me the “man” was the “anointed” remnant of JWs. I balked at that interpretation and told him so. I told him, I read the prophecy in the NWT bible, but noted it was the only bible that I had found, that used “YOU people” for the man. He said the JWs didn’t mind being different from everyone else in the world. I wasn’t impressed.

Since then, I’ve gotten into conversation after conversation with other people regarding this prophecy, at the barber shop, people on the job, ministers/preachers, even some Mormons who came to my door once. They all seemed baffled by this prophecy. None of them could explain it. They all said that they would “get back with me,” but none of them ever did.

Then while surfing the net, over at Beliefnet, some JWs and xJWs were discussing the prophecy (and 1914) at length. One of them brought up the “Man from Bozrah” taken from Isaiah 63rd chapter. I decided to copy some of the material, and bring it over to Paradise Café to get Your opinion on it, but the info was promptly deleted off the board. Anyway, if you would like to read it, here is the link:

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread...0-22?pg=11

I pretty much get most of my information from things I glean off the net and from stuff that I read. But anyway, that’s the extent of my knowledge on the topic, although I haven’t given up and I’m still searching for that answer.

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect

Hi E-magine,

I cited Psalms 72 and Isaiah 49 because I thought they contained some very interesting verses that could give us a slightly different angle on these prophecies, which could possibly shed some light on the "man" and "Jew" of Zechariah 8:23.

Passage Psalm 72:15 NLT:

15 Long live the king!
May the gold of Sheba be given to him.
May the people always pray for him
and bless him all day long.

For example I noticed in Psalms 72:15, how we could ask ourselves some very interesting questions about it. For instance:

1. When would earthlings ever find it appropriate to "pray for" Jesus, in his glorified heavenly position in heaven? Does heavenly enthroned Jesus really need people on earth, to "PRAY FOR HIM"? Does that make sense?

2. When would people on earth need to give heavenly Jesus, "gold," and why would Jesus need "gold" to be given him? Of what use would "gold" be to Jesus, in his heavenly state anyway? Does that make sense?

3. Why would humans on earth, need to invoke "blessings" from God, for Jesus? Jesus has already been exalted to the most "blessed" state ever attained to by any of God's creation, at his heavenly resurrection in the first century. Jesus has immortality and incorruptibility, for all eternity. So, why would this need to be said of him, in this verse?

These are my thoughts.

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect

Well Fugi, as you can see, I never made any comment about you personally, only about the Burney cult, and yes it was a quip, I couldn't resist. I have to wonder why you would take this so personally then, if you have nothing to do with this group.

Believe me, I don't judge anyone for what they believe, but the great Master Jesus had something to say about false Christs.

By the way, the 2-messiah concept is not new. It is very prevalent in Essene and Gnostic traditions, having to do with duality (polarity, similar to yin and yang) and yes, the scriptures do back up the idea. It's where we got the term 'scapegoat', as I'm sure you know. But one thing I know for sure, it has nothing to do with Don Burney!

:drinking:
Jimmy C.

This is about what Jesus accomplished as the Messiah, the human Son of Man. He was his human mother's firstborn son(Lu. 2:7, 23); at his resurrection he became "firstborn from the dead" and gained preeminence, superiority, in God's household. Don't stop at vs 18!
Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

I find it ... curious... when someone declares God wouldn't have to do something - it's usually an effort to circumnavigate what His Word really says. God does what He does because - that's the plan, His Plan, whether we understand every tiny thing or not - He does!
Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
... firstborn of those called to be sons of God
Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
... head of the "church of the firstborn"
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
... 'ruler of kings of the earth' - where have we heard that before --- oh, yes - that sounds like "the highest of the kings of the earth", doesn't it?

It IS about Jesus Christ, the Messiah, nobody else. imho.:)

... a few thoughts...
:peace:

Amen dear sister, Amen!! :clap:


No need for questions that lead us to anyone OTHER than Jesus! :D

No need to follow anyone OTHER than Jesus! :D

And no need to look to anyone, OTHER than Jesus! :D


Thanks again Willa -- there is so much Passion in your posts! Thanks be to God for giving you such gifts! ;):drinking::friends::giverose::grouphug:

Hi Willa,

I have just one question for you or anyone else who would like to answer it......Do YOU believe that JESUS is going to come back to the earth as a Man to fulfill these OT prophecies, in the final days? Yes or No? :whistle:

Fugitive/Detroit Intellect

There's the phrase 'end of the age' that's sometimes translated 'last days' that can be kind of confusing, especially when it really does mean "end of an age", but some of the prophecies you posted, I believe, as previously stated, Jesus already fulfilled in his first earthly mission.

I don't have time right now to go into it further, but I'll return tomorrow - didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you!

:peace:

Hi Willa:

I Understand, but in the meantime, maybe some of your friends can give an answer. I mean Jayme, E-magine, Bruised Reed, Prodical Son or anyone else who has an interest in this thread. Again, a Yes or No is ok.

Fugitive1/Detroit Intellect