Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I hit 70 (years old) the other day, and this has brought a lot of reflection into my life. For I look at all that I've done and accomplished, and the mistakes I've made, and realize that now that I am finally starting to understand it all, it's too late to change much, which is sad. O that I could gain immortality, now that I am finally starting to understand what could be done with it!

Anyhow; I was recently re-editing the Bible book of Ecclesiastes for the 2001 Translation, and I came to appreciate that this book is the culmination of all the great wisdom of Solomon. And although the young view it as dark reasoning, in my old age I can now see what Solomon saw later in life, and can totally agree with his wisdom.

Yes, he was led into idolatry later in life, but that didn't detract from the wisdom God gave him. And this truly is a God-inspired work.

As Witnesses, we only used the Ecclesiastes in a couple of places to prove that man doesn't have an immortal soul (which some still don't appear to have learned), and that there is no Hell Fire. However, the rest goes ignored in the WT as having little value. But how much truth and wisdom can be found there!

Take a look again at the words of Ecclesiastes 3:18-21, and think about what was being said there (Yes, it was written as beautiful poetry): "I said in my heart what sons of men say; that God will examine and show they’re just cattle. Why, the outcome for man is the same as for his herds… as this one dies, so dies the other, since they all share the very same breath. So, how are men better than cattle? They aren’t! And it’s all just a joke! Everything goes to the same place… it comes from the dust and returns to the dust. Who knows if man’s breath will ascend, and the breath of cattle goes down to the ground?"

And consider his wise words and the conclusions he reaches in the wise words of Ecclesiastes 9:3-9: "Indeed; the sons of men’s hearts are filled up with evil, and madness throughout all their lives… and then they go to the grave. But, for those who are living there is hope, since a dog that is living is greater, than a lion that has died. For, the living know that they’ll die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their loves and dislikes are both gone, and their zeal has already perished. Then through the age they’ll have no involvement, in anything that’s done under the sun.

"So, come eat your bread in joy, and drink to your heart with fine wines, and God will think well of your actions. May the clothes that you wear always be white, and may there be plenty of oil for your head. Share your life with the wife you have loved, all the days of your wasted life. For, under the sun this was all you were given, and the days of your life are a folly. This is all that your life really amounts to, for all of your efforts under the sun."

And his summary of all things? Ecclesiastes 12:12-14: "Many scrolls have been written (yes, of them there’s no limit), and spending much time thinking about them, is just a weariness of flesh. But listen, for this is the end of the matter: Fear God and keep His Commandments… this is all there is for a man! All else leads to judgment by God, and it is found to be just bad or good."

Not my words, but the inspired words of the Bible, and the greatest wisdom of Solomon.

Good choice, Jim!

"Many scrolls have been written (yes, of them there’s no limit), and spending much time thinking about them, is just a weariness of flesh."

Ya know, that last bit finally found an application for me in the many "scrolls" that have been put out by the WT. Those over-long tedious verse-by-verse commentaries on prophetic books......and the many many magazines......
:read::news::read::news::read::news: :crazyeyes: :yawn:

And of course, ya gotta think about them in agreement with the writers or you're not an "approved witness"

This is one of the articles that was used against me as a reason to throw me under the bus.:( I'd love to see every "approved" witness hooked up to a lie-detector and asked about all the points on this list. Grrrr.....:angry:

(rant off):P

I really love some of the great treasures in Ecclesiastes. Keep 'em comin', Jim-bro!

love,:hug:
Rez

PS....congrats on turning 70 :present::cake:

:thumbup: Yes, good choice, although I was thinking "Proverbs" when I clicked on this thread, lol.

When I studied with the Witnesses the second time 'round and received my new NWT, Ecclesiastes 12:13 is the scripture I wrote boldly on the front overlay... "the conclusion" kinda sums it all up nice and neat, doesn't it?

13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. NASB

It's still my favorite verse as it encompasses all the good things from that Good Book, especially Jesus' teachings.

His peace to you, big brother! How I value your wisdom too!:hug:
:peace:

Yep, most of us think about Proverbs, but for straight wisdom from someone who's been around, I love the Ecclesiastes.

And rez; You're so right! I've never known a Witness with an IQ over 85 who swallowed the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker. And those beliefs in the quotation are truly some of the worst! So, according to their own words, THERE ARE NO APPROVED ASSOCIATES OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, not even in the Governing Body or their writing staff! It's a religion with followers but no approved members!:readthis:

What better reason for wanting to be thrown under the bus!:yahoo:

It's like the Catholic Church putting Galileo before the inquisition for teaching that the earth isn't the center of the universe!:priest:

What hypocrites!:barf:

Hi brother jim! :hibye:

I guess you have 'special mightiness' my brother ...! :thumbsup:

I may have missed something ... but I kind of confused as to the verses you chose in this wonderful book ...

It sounds to me a tad 'depressive'?

If someone just read those verses it woudn't seem to give much 'hope' for mankind's future ...

That of just living a short time ... and then dying ...

Is there any particular reason you chose those verses my brother ...? Or am I just misreading ...?

luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

I must say though that through my studying I have come to see the 'wisdom' of Solomons words at

Eccl. 10:14 ...

New Living Translation (©2007)

they chatter on and on. No one really knows what is going to happen; no one can predict the future.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He never stops talking. No one knows what the future will bring, or what will happen after [death]. Who can say!

King James Bible
A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?

Yes, our REAL LIFE ... the life the apostle Paul spoke of, the life that Jesus spoke of when he if we find it hard to understand earthly how could we even begin to understand heavenly things ... is at this point in time only able to be understood PARTIALLY ...

What our 'heaven' or 'paradise' will prove will be so more won't it!!

How I look forward then to the day when all things will be revealed ... and that knowing we need to live in the now in a GODLY way ... in a CHRISTLIKE way is the ONLY WAY that we will come to know what will be revealed!!

Our life isn't in WORDS written down ... but in LIVES THAT ARE LIVED!!

They are only a GUIDE for us ... to give us a 'starting point' are they not?

Anyway, enough rambling for now ... :love:

Luv to all ...BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Well (youngster), though depressing, this is truly the destiny of mankind, unless we finally see the coming of Jesus during our lives. And though we all view the things we think and do as so very important, as Solomon said (at Ecclesiastes 1:10, 11), "Who can speak out and say, ‘{Look!} Here is something that’s new!’ For the same thing has happened for ages, to those who have lived before us. The first things that were done are forgotten, and things being done will not be remembered, by those who are born in the end."

Fortunately, Solomon's words are still read and respected by some.

Perhaps a more positive (but unrealistic) message would be, "If you attend meetings and go out in service regularly, you will never die, but gain everlasting life.":D

My grandmother was going to live forever, but she died in 1986. My mother was going to live forever, but she died in 1987. I was going to live forever, but now I'm 70 (and no, I'm not "especially mighty" until I hit 80).

Although there are many prophecies that would indicate that we may be close to the time of the coming of Jesus," "Babylon the Great" really hasn't fallen yet, we can still "buy and sell" without "the mark of the beast," the world is not at war, Elijah hasn't come yet, and this child of a mother who stood up in 1935 and identified herself as part of "the great crowd," may not make it alive to the coming of Jesus.

So, I read the words of Solomon not in sorrow or regret, but in realization of the fact that his words are true. I also look at the words of a dear sister in another thread, whose JW family regrets the fact that she is going to have a baby, and realistically think of Solomon's words, "So, come eat your bread in joy, and drink to your heart with fine wines, and God will think well of your actions." And, "Fear God and keep His Commandments… this is all there is for a man! All else leads to judgment by God, and it is found to be just bad or good."

These may not be cheerful ideas, but they are reality, as provided by Solomon and God, and they bring comfort to me; for I now understand the meaning of all this.

Hi Jim, :D:clap:


I remember when the belief of Armageddon starting and then the Paradise coming in, and not having to die was so strong with me...and then it began to dawn on me, that perhaps this wasnt the case...and like so many other things I once believed...I came to realise that while the Truth in relation to prophetic interpretation is out there, my own dealings with reality may fare to be different.

It was hard for my mind to wrap itself around this idea. But then that idea became reality. And now I prefer the flexibility of possibility. :thumbsup:


Kinda reminds me of something....

One can have every single interpretation of scripture exactly correct....but one still has to wipe their rear-end when they take a dump! :funnyface:

Crude analogy, I know, but I hope you can appreciate what is meant by that.


Cheers bro! :friends::friends::friends:

So true, but I have never met a person who truly has been given such a revelation. The more I learn, the less I am sure of... but I still have to do the things that you mentioned.:funnyface:

JWHVACR,

It reminds me of the saying: "If I knew then what I know now".

Problem is that if I spend to much time thinking about what I could have, would have and should have done then I miss out on what I might be able to do now.

I find these verses to be very poetic:


Ecclesiastes 12:1-14
1 Remember, now, your Grand Creator in the days of your young manhood, before the calamitous days proceed to come, or the years have arrived when you will say: “I have no delight in them”; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars grow dark, and the clouds have returned, afterward the downpour; 3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the men of vital energy have bent themselves, and the grinding women have quit working because they have become few, and the ladies seeing at the windows have found it dark; 4 and the doors onto the street have been closed, when the sound of the grinding mill becomes low, and one gets up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song sound low. 5 Also, they have become afraid merely at what is high, and there are terrors in the way. And the almond tree carries blossoms, and the grasshopper drags itself along, and the caper berry bursts, because man is walking to his long-lasting house and the wailers have marched around in the street; 6 before the silver cord is removed, and the golden bowl gets crushed, and the jar at the spring is broken, and the waterwheel for the cistern has been crushed. 7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.


Yes, my eyes are not as good as they used to be and my teeth have had much dental work and still need more.

Getting old is no fun.


In Christ

abe