Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Rez and all,
On the Seismos thread Rez and I very briefly discussed these prophesies of Jesus.

When one compares all three accounts there are common factors.

Since coming on forums on the net I have met a number of Preterists, who strongly hold that these prophecies were all fulfilled in the first century.
There are also Amils and Premils and others, all who have valid views, with their own relative merits.

From reading the accounts, it appears to me, Jesus was linking two major 'bracketing' events besides the major event with the end of his first sojourn on earth:
i) the destruction of the second temple within their generation and
ii) the end of the age culminating in a spectacular sign when the Son of Man is revealed to believing and unbelieving mankind.

It also appears from Luke's account the persecution of Christians is the first 'minor' event on the horizon that those disciples listening to Jesus needed to look out for.

Wars and rumours of wars and nation against nation, seem to being emphasized as a recurring and worsening pattern throughout the age from Jesus departure until his return.

I would love to hear all your thoughts on where various aspects of what he said in prophesy fit in?

Perhaps we can build a 'chronology' of his prophecy.

I also suspect, those of us who were witnesses, were seriously misled by the invisible parousia and the composite sign, post 1914. It is best to have a fresh look.
Personally, I think I still have a premil view, but have no vested interest and can be convinced otherwise.

peace to all
Derek

Derek,

I think the temple will once again be desolated and do see another fulfillment of those olivet scriptures.

Act 15 makes it clear that the Apostles discerned that another temple was being built in the first century.

Acts 15
13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’


Notice also that its a people "called by my name". For this reason I am convinced the Watchtower does have real significance in regard to the profaning of this same temple.

Immediately before Jesus Christ returns I believe that Paul makes it clear this same rebuilt temple will once again be profaned:

2nd Thessalonians 2
4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

I believe that the man of lawlessness "lifts himself above" Jesus Christ, .... a god.

I am convinced this is the same temple arrangement that Jesus Christ inaugurated with his very own crucifiction:


Hebrew 10
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.


Notice also in the above scripture that baptism seems to be a requirement for entry into the holy place (temple).


In Christ

abe

Hi Abe,
IMHO those scriptures about the future temple are not literal. Are we to suppose animal sacrifice will be recommenced?

How can the Temple be rebuilt, the Dome of the Rock stands on the site?
There would be a terrible war between Zionists and Islam and it would pull all the rest of mankind into the conflagration?
blessings
Derek

Derek,

The temple is not a physical building any longer.

Ephesians 2:19-20
19 Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. 22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit.


The sacrifices are not animal sacrifices:

Hebrews 10
12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually.


Matthew 16:24
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.


In Christ

abe

Hi Abe,
I take your point, but our bodies should be temples as well. :)
The Bible may reuse the same metaphor.

Where do you fit the desolation of the spiritual temple in the 'chronology' of the Olivet discourse? And, how is the Most Holy desecrated as it was by the Romans in the First century?

I think it hubristic that inside the WTS and some of those now outside, overplay the role of the F&DS in God's plans? I think the WTS is a very minor group in the religious pantheon! :)
Peace to you
Derek

Derek,

Where do I fit the desolation of the spiritual temple in the 'chronology' of the Olivet discourse?

I believe the desolation occurs when Jesus Christ returns:

Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.

they will pitch them into the fiery furnace .. sounds really desolate to me!

The profaning or entering of the disgusting thing occurs before the desolation and starts the "operation of error" mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians.

God allows it to contine for some time. (2300 evenings and mornings?)

how is the Most Holy desecrated as it was by the Romans in the First century?

Good question!

In order to understand how a spiritual temple can be desecrated it is first of all important to understand how to gain entry to the temple in the first place. After all the temple is no longer a literal stone and mortar temple.

Here is how to enter this new temple:

Hebrew 10
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised.


The way of entry includes a baptism; "our bodies bathed with clean water".

and a "Public Declaration" ............. vows.

The Watchtower Society has changed the vows to remove the Holy Spirit and instead put in place their own name; "God's Spirit Directed Organization".

An organization of ..... men.

Daniel 11
and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.

There is only one thing guaranteed to cause desolation. Jesus Christ made it clear that everything else could be forgiven.

A sin against the Holy Spirit. The unforgivable sin.

The Watchtower has the hubris to actually change Jesus Christ's baptismal arrangement which he inaugurated with his death.

Is there any others amongst the religious pantheon who have committed a more reprehensible transgression than this?

Daniel 8
11 And all the way to the Prince of the army [Jesus Christ] it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression;

and the established place of his sanctuary

Who established this?

Hebrews 10
by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated (established) for us as a new and living way through the curtain (holy of holies).

And an army itself was gradually given over

An army of Jehovah's Witnesses who surround and profane the temple.

Is this the Roman Army?

the Prince of the army [Jesus Christ]

Why is the army gradually given over?

2nd Thessalonians
11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Watchtower Society is the only religion I know of using God's name who have had the audacity to change a commandment that Jesus Christ died for!

Daniel 9
27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.

They have undermined the new covenant (constant feature), the new and living way through the curtain.

They have put on great airs against Jesus Christ. (lifted themselves up)

They have baptismal vows which enter the temple and give veneration to themselves.

They have lifted themselves up above Jesus Christ and sat themselves in the temple.

They must think they are also gods!

It is a disgusting thing.

One of the reasons for my conviction is that the alternative is to find a religion who has committed a transgression more reprehensible than the one I described above.

Even the Catholic Inquisition does not come close.

I have a link in my signature to some videos which explain the above in more detail.


In Christ

abe

Hi Abe,
The point I was driving at; in the antitypical temple the, Most Holy, is heaven itself, where Jesus 'took' his own blood, as High Priest.

How can heaven be desecrated like the 'type's' most holy was?
atb
Derek

Derek,

I did explain that in the above so maybe there are some concepts still not understood. So I will try and clarify.

In the above post I quoted Hebrews Ch10 which explains how a Christian can get access to this most holy of holies which is now in heaven.

Hebrew Ch10 shows that baptism is a requirement for this.

Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to baptize people in a specific way.

When a person is baptized and makes those vows that Jesus Christ commanded do you think it is heard and seen in heaven by Jehovah and Jesus Christ?

and

Is Jehovah and Jesus Christ in the holy of holies in heaven?

If a Christian persons baptism and vows are not heard or seen in heaven then baptism would have absolutely no value.

If what I have now just said convinces you that a baptismal ceremony gains entrance to the most holy of holies in heaven before the thrones of Jehovah and Jesus Christ then please read again my previous post which should help you understand how that entire process has now been desecrated in a most reprehensible way.


It is the temple in heaven that has been profaned, desecrated.

Please also understand that it is an army of about 7 million people who are participating in the desecration.

Those 7 million people do not have to travel to heaven to desecrate the temple because they can do it through their baptismal vows while they are still on the earth.

Further understand that the anointed chosen ones are growing into a temple for Jehovah and are in amongst those 7 million people, so the temple is also surrounded on earth by a large army.


In Christ

abe

So sorry, Derek. I missed seeing this thread due to time constraints.:blush:

Oh dear, unfamiliar terms.:P Until recently I had no idea what they meant. I realize that these are short-cut words that embody concepts. That kinda makes me uneasy since some variants can easily slip through the cracks.

Would you mind terribly if we spelled things out -- like, "first century", etc. BTW, I didn't even know that there were such folks that believed that everything in scripture was fulfilled in the first century:shocked:
Maybe I still don't fully understand what these expressions mean. :dontknow:

First of all, on the basis of the following couple of scriptures I draw the conclusion that there are two ages (Gr.aionas or systems of things as the NWT puts it) that are of consequence here, the Jewish age and the Gentile age --not sure how to term these, so please bear with me.

"Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived." -- 1 Corinthians 10:11

"But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation." -- Hebrews 9:26-28

The above passages both use the plural for "ends" and "systems", which suggests to me that there are more than one being spoken of. I would say that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple put a definite end to the Jewish age.

"“I have spoken these things to YOU that YOU may not be stumbled. Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God. But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me. Nevertheless, I have spoken these things to YOU that, when the hour for them arrives, YOU may remember I told them to YOU." -- John 16:1-4

In the case of this scripture in John 16, the warning was a general one, not necessarily connected to future events, that I can see. However by the words of Jesus in Luke 21:12-19 it would appear that this persecution would intensify before the ends and would include, not just the little sanhedrens (read=back rooms of KH's) or local courts but also the nations' kings and governors. Paul's experiences may have been the first century fulfillment of these words.

Here is where it gets difficult for me to sort things out in just a few words. I've completely thrown out the WT's 1914 doctrine and everything connected to it. I credit R. King with starting this process with his essay "Another look at 1914" or words to that effect.

Matthew's account would put the "pangs of distress" even before the intensified persecution of Christians. I can't see these "Pangs" as being a recurring and worsening pattern that would obtain in the time period between the two ages. I would have thought that they would precede the ends of both ages.

"And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress". -- Matthew 24:4-8

The following remarks are speculative on my part and by no means solidified. So please forgive me if I sound at all dogmatic.:huh:

I do believe that the signs of the ends of the ages (Jewish and Gentile)as given in Matthew and Luke overlap somewhat. But there are differences.

The good news in the first century was not "the good news of the kingdom". I understand that message has not yet gone forth and will not until the seventh angel blows his trumpet.

"And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”" -- Revelation 11:15

The WT would have us accept that this took place in 1914 with an invisible presence of Jesus in heaven. I feel that it's yet future.

My thought is that the good news in the first century and onward to our day is the good news of Christ....that he died for our sins and was resurrected to heaven to plead for us.

I also do not accept the WT view of the Gentile times. In reality it seems much simpler than their complicated doctrine. Luke mentions this time period at Luke 21:24:

"....and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

The only other place in the bible that uses a similar expression is found at Revelation 11:1-4:

"And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."

So, in my mind, the gentile times have not started yet. It sure will be a lot shorter than the WT's version. Three and a have years as opposed to the great number that the society gives. (try and explain the WT's doctrine of the Gentile times in a 5 minute talk...:P)

I've got more in my bean :prop: but I'll wait for your response before I gear up again. Thanks for the questions and views.

Cheers,:drinking:
Rez

Hi Derek

I've believed WTS theology, Futurist theology and Preterist theology.

The only one that makes sense to me, and seems to fully fit with Jesus words, is the Preterist viewpoint.

I know it's hard to read the Olivet discourse without our preconceived notions bubbling up into our heads, but I find it helps to put yourself in the shoes of the immediate audience - his Jewish hearers.

Was Jesus really speaking cryptically and with double meanings? Or was he actually speaking pretty plainly about the things that his generation were about to experience?

If we have successfully put ourselves in the mind of a 33AD Jewish hearer, then what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives was a condemnation of the very generation to which he was speaking.

Jesus said the most shocking things - that their glorious and wealthy Temple... the jewel in the crown of the Jewish religious and political system... was about to be desolated.

Think of the terror that would have struck in your heart, if you believed Jesus' words - because last time that happened, the Jewish nation were carried off en masse to Babylon.

Well, it did happen on that generation, exactly as Jesus spoke it. The Romans desolated their Temple, and the Jews were led captive into all the nations.

No, Jesus wasn't speaking cryptically or with double-speak. He was telling them plainly what was about to happen to their nation and to that wicked generation.

This means the prophecies Jesus quoted from, ie. Daniel 9 and 11, were also fulfilled in the 1st century. Jesus told them they needed discernment to understand the prophecies because most of the Jews believed they had been fulfilled 200 years earlier, by Antiochus Epiphanes.

No, Jesus was as good as telling the Jews who the "disgusting thing that is causing desolation" would be (not was)... that is, the Roman government, the 4th empire of Daniel's vision of the statue (chapter 2), and the ten-horned beast of Daniel 7.

The great tribulation happened.... as Jesus said, it won't happen again. It was a prophecy for the Jews, their nation and Temple, regarding the 7 years between 66 and 73AD.

As for anyone who objects and says that "all the inhabited earth" was foretold to suffer this great tribulation, read the start of Luke 2. This gospel writer tells us what "all the inhabited earth" means... it was the mass of mankind that were subject to the Romans.

During 66-69AD, the Roman empire also suffered a "great tribulation". Historians even call the year 69AD the "Year Of The Four Emperors". Google it. It was the year the Roman empire nearly came to an end.

I don't think full Preterism is valid... but I think there's a strong case to be made for Preterism with regard to the Olivet prophecy.

Jesus was talking about Jerusalem, the Jews, the Temple, and the wicked generation he was preaching to... and everything came true just as he foretold in the prophecy.

So why do we feel the need to tell Jesus what he really means? :D

Some people find this hard to accept because of Revelation, but Revelation was a later prophecy, given by Jesus once he was in heaven, and covering the entire scope of affairs from his death, right through to the end of the 1,000 year reign. So the scope of Revelation is much broader than the Olivet prophecy. This is where a lot of the confusion lies.

However, I do still believe there is an overlap. Revelation 6-11 is basically covering similar events to the Olivet prophecy... namely the lead up to the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD... with 3 1/2 years either side... ie. from the Romans withdrawing in 66 or the capture of Masada by the Jews... to the re-capture of Masada by the Romans in 73AD.

In short, the "seven seals" and "seven trumpets" refer to the fall of Jerusalem, and the two wild beasts then transitioning into a discussion of the Roman power that destroyed Jerusalem (along with its later incarnation, the Holy Roman Empire).

Hi Rez,

Interpretum is a member of this forum who holds a very strong preterist viewpoint.

On the other hand I would likely be labelled as a futurist and rightfully so.

It is unllikely that any agreement between preterist and futurist on chronology could ever be reached.

Interpretum made his preterist views known in the above post so I feel obliged to defend the futurist point of view.

In regard to the olivet prophecy history does provide plenty of evidence that the temple was indeed desolated.

So why think that these prophecies hold significance for a yet future fulfillment?

There are plenty of reasons!

One of the most compelling reasons is what Jesus Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul and is written about in his letter to the Thessalonians explaining the circumstance that would exist immediately before his promised return.


2nd Thessalonians 2:4
He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

The temple is going to be profaned!

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-10
9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.

People are going to perish because of the temple!

Does that sound like the kind of things Jesus Christ was talking about in the olivet prophecy?

Absolutely, and yet there is no way this can be the same temple as the one in geograpical Jerusalem because it does not exist!

Jesus Christ also connected the desolation of the temple in his olivet prophecy to what the prophet Daniel wrote:

Matthew 24
15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment

Preterists will say that discernment is required to determine that Jerusalem was to be surrounded by encamped armies as recorded by Luke.

What kind of special discernment is required to look over the wall and see Roman armies. It should be really easy!

Daniel was told this:

Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite,

Transgression and sin terminated!

How could transgression and sin be terminated in the first century temple destruction when the Apostle Paul makes it clear that the temple is going to be profaned once again immediately before Jesus Christ returns!

So when is transgression and sin going to be terminated?

Jesus Christ told us when that would happen:

Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

The transgressors will be pitched into the fiery furnace!

Does that sound more like transgression terminated?

The righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Does that sound like; bring in righteousness for times indefinite?

When does this all happen?

When Jesus Christ returns!

Most people agree that Jesus Christ has not yet returned and this event is still in the future.

A person that believes this is a futurist.

If we really do listen to what Jesus Christ said and carefully measure what Daniel wrote about, then the discerning reader should see that Jesus Christ was talking about an event to happen in the future, way beyond the first century.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ was talking about something more profound than the simplistic view that preterists struggle to hold. To recognise the evidence however, you really do have to listen to what Jesus Christ said.

I personally think that the imminent desolation of this new temple will actually have to occur before a preterist will move from their strongly held convictions.

I believe that when it does happen the righteous ones will; "shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."


In Christ

abe

Oh that there were fewer "ists" and more with an open mind.

JWHVACR,

I am very open to any readjustment in my thinking.

If there is something I have posted which you think needs some adjustment then please do.

I do want to know the truth and believe that it can be obtained through examining carefully what Jesus Christ and his Apostles wrote. I also have great respect for what is written in the Old Testament.

If I did not believe this I would still be a Jehovah's Witness.

It would be wonderfull if everybody could think in agreement.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are able to acheive this unity of agreement by disfellowshipping anyone who does not agree with them.

The Khymer Rouge used the same technique.

If you disagree with me I won't disfellowship you.

I will however, carefully measure what you say against scripture and what I see happening in the world around me.

There is plenty of motivation for any Christian to continue to do this.

2 Corinthians 13:11
11 Finally, brothers, continue to rejoice, to be readjusted, to be comforted, to think in agreement, to live peaceably; and the God of love and of peace will be with YOU.

If you want to collaborate in my own quest there is an extraordinary benefit which no one can acheive on their own.

That is why I come to forums like this one.

To share what I have learned and also benefit from what other people have to say.

The convictions that I presently have are a result of continuing to do this.

The convictions I presently have are not the same as when I first became a Jehovah's Witness. They are also not the same as the convictions I had immediately after being disfellowshipped.

I continue to test my convictions.

I hope to eventually reach the point where the mutual benefit and extraordinary blessing explained in the scripture above can be acheived.


In Christ

abe

"Isms" are just shortcuts for describing one's beliefs. I've been a WT'ist... and also a Futurist... now I'm a Preterist. If I weren't open-minded I wouldn't have changed from the first belief :D

ABM, the problem with your point of view (and of Futurism in general) in that it takes Jesus words to his generation, and applies them to a completely different audience.

It would be like me talking to "this forum"... and then some reader 1,900 from now reading my post and simply assuming I am talking to them, on their forum. No, I explicitly told you who I'm talking to... this forum.

Paul's temple quotation isn't a problem. Paul was likely quoting from the book of Daniel... that's how he knew what was still to come, because the book of Daniel also talked about a disgusting thing causing desolation, and then an entity viewing himself as godlike:

"And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation. .. // .. And the king will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvelous things... but over everyone he will magnify himself."

This is essentially the same language as Paul uses - an entity would put something in place in the temple, exalting himself... basically as God.

All of this was fulfilled by Nero. It was Nero's Roman armies that first came against Jerusalem, was it not? It was Nero who had the Christians burned in Rome, was it not? It was Nero who then had a massive statue of himself erected, and essentially acted as a god... until, distressed by reports from the north (Gaul) and east (Judea), he eventually committed suicide... as the prophecy in Daniel 11 foretells... immediately before Michael stands up to defend true Israel that had fled into the wilderness.

So the "simplistic" Preterist interpretation also fits the facts on the ground. Jesus told us what the "disgusting thing" was... it was the Roman armies. So this "god" must have been related to the one in charge of the Roman armies... unless you wish to contradict Mathew and Luke and say the "disgusting thing" wasn't the Roman armies. But even the WTS acknowledge it was... so that makes the "god" who was in charge of them to be Nero!

The only reason things become complicated is when we impose an interpretation on Jesus' words that is 1,900+ years removed from its target audience :D

Hi Rez,
Thank you for your reply, there was no rush, Rez, we all are busy people.

Much of what you said seems very reasonable.

Just a few thoughts on your post,I will post more when time permits.

I merely mentioned a few of the different views, and failed to mention many others, just to show there are many views. They all may be wrong or correct, to lesser or greater extent.

In my youth, the WTS produced a book on Daniel, called, "Your Will be Done on Earth".
I believed every sentence of this WTS exposition and tried to memorize all the explanations. Since then I've learned to be more skeptical with those who know how prophecy will work out.
I feel as brother Jim does, there are too many certain factions.

You wrote:First of all, on the basis of the following couple of scriptures I draw the conclusion that there are two ages (Gr.aionas or systems of things as the NWT puts it) that are of consequence here, the Jewish age and the Gentile age --not sure how to term these, so please bear with me.


Seems reasonable, in the main, but possibly, God will fulfill His promises to the Patriarchs. Paul in Romans has some interesting things to say about the Jews future and I have open mind on the subject.

BTW. Didn't Christ start ruling when he returned to heaven?
WCL
Derek