Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Interpretum,

For your preterist viewpoint to be more credible you would have to convince me that the temple mentioned by Paul was the same temple in Jerusalem destroyed in 70ad.

You would have to show me that the Thessalonians could expect immediately after that; "the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" would be imminent.

We are nearly 2000 years later.

I don't think that is imminent enough.

Do you?

Also what about this temple:

Acts 15
14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things,

Where is this temple?

Has it been rebuilt?

Can a Christian enter it today?

If a person believes that Jesus Christ has not yet returned to gather his chosen ones then with what temple do they associate Pauls words.

The one destroyed nearly 2000 years ago or the one the Apostles came to realize was already rebuilt.

It was rebuilt before the old one was destroyed and after it had been abandoned.

If Paul wrote his words before the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed then two temples were in existence. One of them had already been abandoned.

If Paul wrote his words after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed then only one temple existed. The one mentioned in Acts Ch15.

Also keep in mind that this is what Luke said:


Luke 21
20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.

Luke mentioned nothing about a temple.

So why would Matthew say that discernment would be required in regard to the temple.

If Roman armies are encamped around the city, then get out!

Preterists and Watchtowerists combine Matthew and Luke imagining that the special discernment required is that if the army encamps around Jerusalem and then undermines the temple wall and profanes it, then get out.

What if the army simply encamped around the city and did nothing else?

Do they not get out?

Was that it, the amazing amount of discernment required?

Another problem here is, how do you profane a temple that has already been abandoned. It has no value left to be profaned if it has already been abandoned..... by God!

In order to profane something it has first to be sanctified somehow.

The temple in Jerusalem had no sanctity left.

So how does a man of lawlessness lift himself up above a god inside a temple that has been abandoned by Jesus Christ and God?

Or was it only Jesus Christ who abandoned the temple while God still occupied it. If that was the case then by whose authority did Jesus Christ proclaim that the temple had been abandoned?

There are no longer any gods in that temple for the man of lawlessness to lift themselves up over.

In order to become a preterist I would need rock solid answers to these questions and concerns.

If you have rock solid answers to these questions and concerns then please share them.

If you don't, then why claim to be a preterist?

I have already been screwed around by the Watchtower Society and am no longer so easily convinced by supposedly simple truths.


In Christ

abe

Well, Derek-bro, here's the thing: I don't call my view a "view".:D And I don't try to nail everything down anymore. By keeping my conclusions fairly fluid I can allow for rearranging my bits without undue trauma...sorta like a jigsaw puzzle. There's nothing like destroying a piece by trying to make it fit in a preconceived spot only having to haul it out after finding that nothing seems to fit in its vicinity.:P

Yupper! I'm with you and Jim on that one. And I remember the little lime-green book well. The one good thing about all the WT books on prophesy is that they created in me a desire to seek answers. They made a reasonably good student of me....:whistle:

Oh, I don't think our Father has given up on his promises at all. There's one of those tricky "isms" again....replacementism.:funnyface:

No, I believe there is a lot to be learned from Paul's words in Romans chapter 11 which our little online bible-reading group finished a couple of weeks ago. We all pretty much came to the same conclusion that Jehovah's way of dealing makes certain that no one - Jew or Gentile- will have any cause for pride. He really leveled the playing field for all. And he is doing things this way so that "all Israel will be saved".

Ezekiel 47:21-23 gives us a neat prophetic vision:

“And YOU must apportion this land to yourselves, to the twelve tribes of Israel. And it must occur that YOU should allot it for inheritance to yourselves and to the alien residents who are residing as aliens in YOUR midst, who have become father to sons in the midst of YOU. And they must become to YOU like a native among the sons of Israel. With YOU people they will fall [by lot] into an inheritance in the midst of the tribes of Israel. And it must occur that in the tribe with which the alien resident has taken up residence as an alien, there is where YOU should give his inheritance,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."

What say you to the scripture in Hebrews 10:12-13,

"But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet." -- (see also Psalms 110:1)

Who are his enemies? When does this scripture see fulfillment? Does it get fulfilled on the Jewish system and/or beyond? When does Revelation 11:15 find its fulfillment?

"And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

All bits of the puzzle. More: When does the resurrection take place as in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

"However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

So, is the bride of Christ raised piecemeal? or together?

"Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

* the phrase "together with them" contains the Greek words: hama G260 (adverb) meaning "simultaneous" or "same-time" + sun G4862 (preposition) meaning "together."

Here's a WT-contentious question. Do "those who belong to the Christ during his presence" get a resurrection as they die (since 1918) or are they asleep now and get raised together at some future date?

"Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

'Nuther question for the future: Does Christ sit or stand to reign?

Hope I haven't muddled things up by asking too many questions. :blush: But that's how my mind works.

You don't have to answer all at once, bro. As you have time.:ok:

Cheers,:drinking:

Rez

Hi Rez,
Just a quick response:
Do you feel Psalm 2 has any bearing on Jesus ruling in heaven whilst the nations on earth continue to act as God's enemies?

Psalm 2 (New International Version)

1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD
and against his Anointed One.

3 "Let us break their chains," they say,
"and throw off their fetters."

4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,

6 "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son ;
today I have become your Father.

8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

9 You will rule them with an iron scepter ;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear
and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


I invariably find, questions, lead to more questions.
It is like dealing with all the many layers of 'skins' on an onion to try to unravel a creation of God's Spirit.

blessings
Derek

Yup, sure do.

I'm thinking that verses 1-4 make a good fit for Revelation 11:1-10. This is, of course, the prophesy regarding the "two witnesses" and their sackcloth ministry. This is a whole subject on its own and I don't want to make this post too long and involved so I'll just sum up my thoughts on it for now. Please feel free to ask for any scripture support that you deem essential and that I may not have included.

I believe that the "two witness" group is the living body of Christ that are ready to die for their faith. They have been measured for their readiness to submit to a death like Jesus. Note Paul's words at Philippians 3:10-14;20-21:

"....so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection*(literally: out-resurrection) from the dead. Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus

. . .As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself."

At the end of their prophesying they are killed by the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss.

Verses 5-7 match up well with a more lengthy Revelation 11:11-18

"And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly. And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

It's during the events of the above scripture that the "two witness" group plus the dead martyrs from the first century onward are raised together to be with their Lord in heaven. These, together with Christ comprise the ones to whom it is said:

That this includes the Christian martyrs is borne out in Revelation 12:5:

"And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne."

and in Revelation 2:26-27

"And to him that conquers and observes my deeds down to the end I will give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, the same as I have received from my Father"

These ones who inherit authority over the nations are the same ones who ride with Christ on white horses spoken of at Revelation 19:11-16

"And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

I believe that these final verses of Psalms 2 find their fulfillment in a 3 and a half year period, during which much separating, judging and cleansing takes place. Then the beautiful vision of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven adorned as a bride for her husband will bless those of mankind who have responded to the heavenly invitation:

"And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free." -- Revelation 22:17

Amen to that, bro!:thumbsup:

The scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4 proves the WT wrong.

"Thereupon we the living, being left around (remnant), at the same time, together with them will be snatched in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

Jesus receives the whole body of His bride at once, intact, toenails included....at the same time

.........and it hasn't happened yet.

man hu,

I agree that it has not happened yet.

I expect that immediately before it is about to happen we should be carefully watching for the four winds being released:


Revelation 7
1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

Jeremiah 30
23 Look! A windstorm of Jehovah, rage itself, has gone forth, an onward-sweeping tempest. Upon the head of the wicked ones it will whirl. 24 The burning anger of Jehovah will not turn back until he will have executed and until he will have carried out the ideas of his heart. In the final part of the days YOU people will give YOUR consideration to it.

Jeremiah 25:32
32 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth.

I must confess that in very recent years there have been many enormous calamities happening in a large number of nations.

Haiti is a recent calamity where an entire nation has been completely devastated.

Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation,

Still not certain that the four winds have been released however, I admit that I am giving careful consideration to determine when the first ressurection might indeed be imminent.

In the final part of the days YOU people will give YOUR consideration to it.

I am watching for calamities.

After the most recent calamities I now find myself asking, what next?

Expecting a point will be reached where I am certain it is imminent.

What are you looking for in order to determine whether it has or has not happened?


In Christ

abe

Hi Rez,
Certainly, the resurrection of Christians on Christ's return appears to simultaneously take place with the living, meeting him. I tend to think that death, is the cessation of life only from a human perspective. Christ also says, we have everlasting life. Also from God's perspective, all are alive anyway. So, perhaps, in that sense, Christ brings the dead saints along with him.
It seems irrelevant to argue much over the condition of the dead. The end of one life and resurrection are instantaneous (seamless) to all the dead, who may be unaware of their 'compulsory service'.

There is no support in scripture for the resurrection of the dead and remaining survivors of the return of Christ, growing to perfection during the thousand year reign.

As to whether Jesus sits or stands.:) Surely he sits astride a horse?

Seriously, perhaps the multi-positional references imply his different roles as YHWH King.

Dogmatism in prophetic explanations is a sign of great insight or even greater foolishness. Like you, I have an open mind in such matters, never-the-less, it is interesting to discuss them.

Did you notice how in Romans 11, in context shows, God's ways are unsearchable because of the wild olive being grafted in and then the natural branches being grafted in again? Who would have thought it? I think we often use the scripture about how unsearchable God is without seeing the context.

peace to all
Derek

I think it's sufficient to say that they sleep, eh? Certainly they are not aware of any transition. Perhaps that is what happened in the case of Enoch as reported in Hebrews 11:5,

"By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well."

I would say that, in the case of the resurrection of the "unrighteous" the thousand year reign of Christ is a probationary period, as the Bible speaks of the healing of the nations. But of "those who belong to Christ"? Good grief no!

The WT view on the "great crowd" who, after surviving Armageddon, have to "grow" to perfection over a thousand years is just plain silly! :shocked: Here they are, dressed in white robes and serving God in his sanctuary (Greek=naos)....and they have to wait a thousand years to be pronounced as "living"???? That is nuts! What about these scriptures?

"However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God."-- John 1:12-13

"He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." -- John 3:36

The Greek words that are translated "everlasting life" are aionian (an adjective modifying the noun: zoe) + zoe (the Greek noun for life)

There has been much speculation over this expression and I think that this is one of those things that our limited minds find difficult to comprehend. Sufficient it is to try to understand what it will mean to experience the sort of life that our Father and Jesus and celestial beings enjoy.

Another scripture that has a bearing on this is Jesus' words at Matthew 22:31-32,

"As regards the resurrection of the dead, did YOU not read what was spoken to YOU by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living."

So much more could be said about the living and the dead. Perhaps on another thread.

Yupper. :P Trick question.:D

Kinda reminds me of how children try to imitate what they see their parents doing.

I find that part of Romans very interesting. We'll all be excited to see how that unfolds. But one thing that I'm exceedingly confident about is that our Lord's blood is precious and our Father will not waste one drop of it. (1Peter 1:19)

Take care,:)
Rez

Hi Rez,
You wrote:
I would say that, in the case of the resurrection of the "unrighteous" the thousand year reign of Christ is a probationary period, as the Bible speaks of the healing of the nations. But of "those who belong to Christ"? Good grief no!

I thought the unjust were supposed to be resurrected at the end of the thousand years? BTW I was not referring to Christian resurrection.

Surely, according to Revelation, the healing of the nations takes place when God tents with men at the end of the 1000 years? :)

Revelation's forward looking chronology does not line up easily with the rest of scripture. The two last 'battles' at the beginning and end of the thousand years, are problematical.
peace
Derek