Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Raising a question here:

James 2:24-26 says: "You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner was not also Rahab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

When James said that we "see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone," was it not "in the same manner" that Rahab wasn't being truthful when being asked the whereabouts of the spies, saying they had already left when, in fact, they were hiding on the rooftop. Yet she was still declared righteous by works. So, what are the works meant by James? And how can they be righteous yet untruthful?

Cheers,

sw

If one has a literal or wooden understanding of righteousness then lying for a good purpose will not be allowed because rules never have an exception on this level of understanding and the purpose of rules is not perceived. If one has a mature understanding, then lying is allowed for a good purpose and will be understood to be in harmony with the purpose of the rule to not tell a lie.

Rahab didn't sin when she lied, but she put her own life at risk to protect visitors. The bible places huge emphasis on how strangers are treated because its a case of the strong hopefully protecting the weak or the opposite as in Sodom. Those unknown to themselves have entertained angels.

Joseph was said to be righteous as well, due to wanting to secretly divorce Mary rather than expose her to the Torah prescribed punishment for adultery. Joseph had no reason to believe Mary was innocent at that time. Interesting how breaking the Torah even in Jewish times can be seen as righteousness. Man is lord even of the Sabbath!

Hi Saraphim!
I agree. The acts of "faith" go beyond mere physical acts.
Perhaps the question proposed by SW can be viewed in this way.
The "works" of faith can include such intangible things as, motive, love for goodness, concern for strangers or the unfortunate, attitude, appreciation, compassion, and things like these.
The application of James words that "faith without works is dead", to "actively preaching of the good news", is superficial. IMO

Which all goes to prove what James was driving at. Was the lie for the teller's own benefit, or the one being protected? When Tamar outsmarted Judah (Genesis 38:15-24), after every legitimate effort on her part for levirate marriage failed, he declared her more righteous than himself (considering she enticed him into a harlotrous affair), she even becoming part of Christ's geneological lineage. (Matthew 1:3)

I was thinking too of James' earlier words (James 2:10) "For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all." Was he saying then that the law was meant to be stretched, bent or broken? Otherwise, why would he say "Keep on speaking in such a way and keep on doing in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people?" concluding with, "For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment. (James 2:12-13)

Lying for the benefit of others is a matter of how we individually judge the matter of lying. What kind of lie is the question. In this we need wisdom.

...an interesting, if controverial, topic. Interesting because it requires some deep soul-searching. Controversial because of the spin the WT puts on it.

Here's what the w57 5/1 pp. 285-286 Use Theocratic War Strategy says:

This article has been referenced many times to justify the higher-ups telling untruths to the rank-and-file. But a careful reading of the article reveals that "there is no occasion for use of war strategy when dealing with our Christian brothers."

They get around this injunction by casting aspersion on the brother/sister who asks an honest question (such as the NGO matter) and who deserves an honest answer. In most cases a lie is told to cover the embarrassment to the WT org. These lowly brothers are treated like the enemy who is seeking to make the WT look bad.

Sure it's complicated. Lying under any circumstance is not to be taken lightly. Better if one can remain silent. That's not always possible, though, is it. The Bible example that comes to mind, besides Rahab, is the occasion when David was hiding from Saul and went to the house of Ahimilec the priest for food for his men. An interesting account and well worth reading.

"Later David came into Nob to A·him′e·lech the priest; and A·him′e·lech began to tremble at meeting David and then said to him: “Why is it you are by yourself, and no one is with you?” 2 At this David said to A·him′e·lech the priest: “The king himself commanded me as to a matter, and he went on to say to me, ‘Let no one know anything at all of the matter concerning which I am sending you and concerning which I have commanded you.’" -- 1 Samuel 21:1-2

Question: Why did Ahimelech tremble at meeting David?

Answer: You'll have to read down to verse 9. Then you can skip down to Chapter 22:6-19. That should make it totally understandable.

BTW Psalm 52 was written by David as a result of this experience.

Love,
Rez:love:

I don't know if this fits....but....When David acted as though a crazy person, was this not deceit/lying, to hide his true sane self?

:funnyface:

All I know is.....unlike David...I try and act sane...to hide my true insane self...:clap: :funnyface: :clap:


:coffeeread:

I knew it!!! :friends::hug::funnyface:

Hey "Dad"!! :friends:


You know, I never made that connection...thank heaps!!! :friends:

James 2(Amplified Bible)
1 MY BRETHREN, pay no servile regard to people [show no prejudice, no partiality]. Do not [attempt to] hold and practice the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ [the Lord] of glory [together with snobbery]!
2 For if a person comes into your congregation whose hands are adorned with gold rings and who is wearing splendid apparel, and also a poor [man] in shabby clothes comes in,
3 And you pay special attention to the one who wears the splendid clothes and say to him, Sit here in this preferable seat! while you tell the poor [man], Stand there! or, Sit there on the floor at my feet!
4 Are you not discriminating among your own and becoming critics and judges with wrong motives?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and in their position as believers and to inherit the kingdom which He has promised to those who love Him?
6 But you [in contrast] have insulted (humiliated, dishonored, and shown your contempt for) the poor. Is it not the rich who domineer over you? Is it not they who drag you into the law courts?
7 Is it not they who slander and blaspheme that precious name by which you are distinguished and called [the name of Christ invoked in baptism]?
8 If indeed you [really] fulfill the royal Law in accordance with the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as [you love] yourself, you do well.
9 But if you show servile regard (prejudice, favoritism) for people, you commit sin and are rebuked and convicted by the Law as violators and offenders.
10 For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it.
11 For He Who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not kill. If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become guilty of transgressing the [whole] Law.
12 So speak and so act as [people should] who are to be judged under the law of liberty [the moral instruction given by Christ, especially about love].
13 For to him who has shown no mercy the judgment [will be] merciless, but mercy [full of glad confidence] exults victoriously over judgment.
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man's hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot--was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.

I like the way the Amplified version expands on the thoughts you've all already posted. Mercy is a good work, as is faith - mercy and faith in action is what Peter was propounding, I think. He is also contrasting the incompleteness of Jewish Law(vss. 10, 11) with that which is now complete through Christ - the law of liberty(vss 12, 13).
:2cents:

Great topic to meditate on, bro. Wick - thanks! :thumbup:

Some actions trump some rules...

John 7:23..."If a man receives circumcision on a sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are YOU violently angry at me because I made a man completely sound in health on a sabbath?  Stop judging from the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Matthew 12:1...

"At that season Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath. His disciples got hungry and started to pluck heads of grain and to eat.  At seeing this the Pharisees said to him: “Look! Your disciples are doing what it is not lawful to do on the sabbath.”  He said to them: “Have YOU not read what David did when he and the men with him got hungry?  How he entered into the house of God and they ate the loaves of presentation, something that it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests only?  Or, have YOU not read in the Law that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple treat the sabbath as not sacred and continue guiltless?  But I tell YOU that something greater than the temple is here.  However, if YOU had understood what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice,’ YOU would not have condemned the guiltless ones.  For Lord of the sabbath is what the Son of man is.”

.02,

gogh

a late ps - it's the 'letter of the Law' versus 'the spirit of the Law'.
True justice can't be gained without mercy, right? The Pharisees of Jesus' day weren't so much concerned with mercy, as he pointed out time and time again. They enjoyed beating others down and keeping them down with a very dogmatic justice that lacked love - the love that Jesus said the Law was meant to rest on. I think Peter is reinterating Jesus' teaching. :D :thumbsup:

another :2cents: :peace:

I find it interesting that when Jesus said we should "prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous," these were the works his father did. So, we too, in developing faith, need the works of such faith to be active.

"For if you love those loving you , what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? you must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.(Matthew 5:45-48)

Interestingly, some fifteen years later, Luke uses the word 'mercy' synonymously to 'perfect.' In this way we prove to be perfect in our mercy. As Luke records it, "continue to love your enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful, just as your Father is merciful.(Luke 6:35-36)

Love,

sw

The works we are to have are the fruitages of the Holy Spirit...not the works of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21. “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Seditious speak of divisions. The Greek word refers to any kind of commotion within the church that causes what is commonly known as “church splits.” There may be times when separation from an apostate group has a place, but in most cases, the primary duty of every Christian is to witness faithfully right where he is. The most deplorable splits are those resulting from personality conflicts within the church. When there are seditions, the unity and fellowship of the local body of Christ is fractured, and the testimony of the congregation in the community is marred. The divisive tendency (evident in many congregations) is the result of choosing to walk in the way of envy and bickering, rather than in the royal road of love, forgiveness, and magnanimity.

Heresies are ideas (schools of thought) that are contrary to the accepted fundamental historic doctrines of the Christian faith. It seems like some theologians are always trying to dream up something new. All Christians, when listening to teaching and preaching, need to take a lesson from the Bereans, who “searched the Scriptures daily [to find out] whether those things were so” (Acts 17: 11).


Galatians 5:22-23

22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23. gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

These are the works we are to have with faith