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Now when the seven thunders spoke, I was at the point of writing; but I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Seal up the things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them down.” Revelation 10:4

He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near.” Revelation 22:10


John is told not to "seal up the words of the prophecy” – yet is also told to “seal up the things” that the seven thunders “spoke”.

Who are the "seven thunders"?

What "things" did they speak?

Why was John told not to write down what the seven thunders “spoke”?



v r

I can't prove it, but the more I study Revelation, the more I'm convinced the angel is referring to Josephus and his 7 books The Wars Of The Jews.

The pause after the sixth trumpet (chaper 10), in my opinion, corresponds exactly with the time when Titus paused his final campaign against Jerusalem, and actually had Josephus speak to the people, to persuade them to surrender. (The actual trampling of Jerusalem commenced in chapter 11).

As well as a historian, Josephus was probably a prophet of God. He correctly predicted the rise of Vespasian as emperor, when Vespasian was just a general... which Josephus said was revealed to him in a dream.

I suspect the reason they were "sealed" by John is that John wasn't meant to record the exact historical details of that tribulation upon Jerusalem... that was left to Josephus.

"Yes, but what does it mean, today?" I hear people cry already...

:coffeeread:

Now when the seven thunders spoke, I was at the point of writing; but I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Seal up the things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them down.” Revelation 10:4

this has to do with the mystery we are suppose to find out on our own, and one can only find out the mystery, by coming to Jesus. You cannot discover this hidden mystery by being seperated from Christ, therefore it remains hidden and sealed up to those who still think from the rational will and spirit, and will not submit to Christ, and put on the meek, simple and child-like Spirit,. They prefer worldly wisdom, which can never reach the deep things of the Spirit.

The restored Zion-Church cannot be by Man or after Manly Wisdom, but by the power of the Holy Spirit which Christ our Prince and Saviour has sent in his own Name, to build upon the Foundation of the Father and the Son, the Rock indeed, which remains steady and unshaken from Time to Eternity, who is found sufficient for the gathering and building of these holy Temple-Stones, that are to be fitly compacted together, to make up this glorious Church, that may be presented all fair, without spot, and become the Spouse and Bride of the Lamb.

Christ, the Morning Star has risen, to lead us out of our selves, where nothing but darkness is, and where the fallen spirits keep their strong hold on us so that we will never know what the 7 thunders spoke, because they remain sealed unless you come to Christ fully, and never turn back.

We have to learn this for ourselves, we cannot have someone else do it for us. Following things of this earth puts out our spiritual eyes, likened to Samson (the figure of Power Beyond what is Normal) for Satan has a great Indignation against us, because Christ provided our escape from bondage, death and misery. The enemy of all Mankind, provides a Delilah for some to steal and draw away their Minds, and to seduce them to follow after her, to hold us captive to mortal cares, businesses and concerns for the outward Man, causing man to become so overcharged and weighed down in their Spirits, so they cannot get up to shake off this earthly dust, to walk with God in Enoch’s state, instead they put Christ last, when Christ himself said to seek the Kingdom of Heaven, and with all getting, to get Wisdom, and to come to Him. They have allowed the darkness of this world, to put out and seal up their spirtual eyes to be able to see the truth.

:heartbeat:
New Heart

Hey, veritas:hibye:

You sure do like the great mysteries:shocked: This is one that many of us are struggling with. Sometimes I just have to leave these in my 'jigsaw file' until there are more pieces on the table. This seems to be a good time to go searching once more. Here are a few first thoughts:

Perhaps "what" rather than "who". And here I'm thinking along the same lines as New Truth about the seven spirits of God.

"And out of the throne there are proceeding
lightnings and voices and thunders; and [there are] seven
lamps of fire burning before the throne, and these mean the
seven spirits of God." -- Revelation 4:5

It seems that it's the seven lamps that mean the seven spirits of God. However, thunders are mentioned in the context.

Another scripture that tie thunders with the voice of God is Job 37:1-5:

“Indeed at this my heart begins to tremble,
And it leaps up from its place. Listen attentively, YOU
men, to the rumbling of his voice, And the growling that goes
forth from his mouth. Under the whole heavens he lets it
loose, And his lightning is to the extremities of the earth.
After it a sound roars; He thunders with the sound of his
superiority, And he does not hold them back when his voice
is heard. God thunders with his voice in a wonderful way,
Doing great things that we cannot know."

The partial answer to this may be found in the context.

"Now when the seven thunders spoke, I was at the point of writing; but I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Seal up the things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write them down.” And the angel that I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven, and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore: “There will be no delay (or time=chronos) any longer; but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”" -- Revelation 10:4-7 NWT

Interestingly, the phrase "which he declared" is in the past tense in the NWT as it is also in some other translations. But in the Greek this is written in present tense. The Concordant Literal Version follows the Greek closely and it reads:

"...but in the days of the seventh messenger’s voice,
whenever he may be about to be trumpeting, the secret of
God is consummated also, as He evangelizes to His own
slaves and the prophets." -- Revelation 10:7 CLV

Reading it in the present tense (as it is in the Greek) one gets the impression that, just before the blowing of the seventh trumpet God evangelizes regarding the consumation of the "secret of God". I'm wondering if this message from God at that time is what causes the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3 to prophesy in sackcloth for 3 1/2 years before the wild beast has them killed.

It is possible that their resurrection after 3 1/2 days corresponds with the blowing of the seventh trumpet and the resurrection of all those who died in Christ from the first century till then.

My guess is because that message is the one spoken of in Revelation 10:7. It hasn't happened yet or we would know it.

Well, vr, that's my little bits 'n pieces for now.

Love,
Rez:siskiss:

The ideas by New Truth and Resolute reflect basically what I’ve come to as to the identity of the seven thunders and what they had to say. And I agree that the whole of Revelation 10 seems to be related to the future work of the two witnesses in the next chapter, since the response by the seven thunders seems to be in direct reaction to the angel with the little scroll – that is seen as “open” - so the seven thunders must be verbally declaring what the little scroll had written on it. But since the time for that information to be known would not be revealed until the two witnesses are commissioned - John - who heard the message also - was told to not write it down.

While it’s true that John is given the scroll and told to eat it, the connectives of the words “And they say to me: “You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.” in Revelation 10:11, seems to roll right into chapter Revelation 11:3: “And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” John in his day did not do this work - was he foretelling the work that would be done in the last days against the beast’s global empire? It seems to me yes.

So, is the scroll being “little” denote a very short and concise message? Is the message “sweet” to the taste – for the ones hearing it that are persons of faith in learning that the end of the system is finally very near? Is the message “bitter” in the stomach – in causing deep seated pain to the hearers that are against God’s purposes by its weightiness against Satan and his system? Possibly the message also causes pain to the two witnesses in having to bring a message of doom to the earth, possibly why they are in seen in sackcloth since they feel badly about the coming judgments which will mean death for many.

All questions to yet be answered, and fun to try to see how close we collectively can guess in the meantime. Certainly Jesus is in the center of the intelligence stream, as “* the seven spirits” – if they are indeed the same as “the seven thunders” – provides Jesus “eyes” in all the earth to know what the situation is. So yes, could the “seven thunders” collectively be the Holy Spirit? Does the Greek for “Spirit” have a plural context or flavor to it, such that it could mean “Holy Spirits”? Just a thought, it does seem that the Helper - the Paraclete that Jesus promised to send - is something more than just an active force. Just some more ideas. And no, I’m NOT a Trinitarian!



v r



* And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which [eyes] mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth. Revelation 5:6

Acts 6
The Choosing of the Seven

1.In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3. Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4. and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
5. This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6. They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

7. So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Stephen Seized
8. Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9. Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10. but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.
11. Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God."

12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

15. All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

The first 7 who have conquered the seven seals and have died in their fleshly spirit and mind,representing being beheaded to put on the new heart and mind , have the 7 spirits of God within them, working through them. They are servents of Jesus, in charge of serving others food given to them through the Spirit of God.. Their sole purpose is to work in accordance with the Father, and faithfully give out, according to the mind of the Lord, what the 7 spirits reveal to them. They have conquered an inward spiritual martyrdom, for the hope of a Resurrection in a God-head-Body and Spirit. The manner of death is here to be taken notice of, in that they are said to have been beheaded by the ax, that is, who have their head life, where the rational understanding is seated, and from where all sensible operations go forth, cut off, and separated from them, because by means of it the dragon and beast have found place to establish their Kingdoms in Man, and have been in all ages upheld, the main of the serpents strength having always lain in the craft and subtlety of reason, which is the Fore-Head mark of the Beast.


Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:4

In Christ our King,
New Heart

Revelation 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Revelation 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

they must obtain a spiritual resurrection, completly dead to this world.

Rev. 6:9-17

9.When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Those dead in Christ are helping theri other fellow servants to wake up from their dead spiritual conditions, to also cut off their heads, and hear Christs voice and call to them to come and be free and to be at rest and wait as well along with those who are killed or have died to the beasts kingdom, and have denied his mark on the forehead.

We are now arriving at the 6th seal....

12. I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13.and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Yes, it is a mystery and yet something still connects all of these things.

I believe the seven thunders and seven spirits are all a part of resolving the same mystery:

Revelation 1
20 As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations.

Understanding this mystery is strongly linked to conquering and so is very important:

Revelation 3
21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

Jesus Christ really does want us to understand the mystery!


I think the reason why it has to be a mystery is because Satan reads the bible.

Satan read the Old Testament, do you think he has now also read the New Testament?

Satan will mislead us according to the way that God knows he will and yet if God told us the answer instead of sealing it up in mystery then Satan himself would understand it and choose some other way of misleading us.

Through this means Satan is being dragged along with hooks in his jaw to do the things that God knows he will do.


The sacred secrets are being kept from Satan.

I believe it is God's intent that we eventually understand them and by doing so will have conquered Satan.

If this is understood then it instills even more appreciation and love for God.

He has not sealed up his words in mysteries to test or hinder us but to give us a fighting chance to perceive Satan's deceptions.

If you can clearly see through Satan's deceptions, then you have conquered him!

The mysteries are in the bible for very benevolent reasons!

The explanation of the mystery is in my book and takes many pages to provide and support the proof.

Yes, it is a bitter sweet mystery:

John 16
12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.

I have already explained on other threads in this forum that the Gentiles will build a temple and allow it to be profaned in a truly reprehensible way immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

The Gentiles (us) have screwed up just as badly as the Jews did in the first century.

Is that a bitter pill to swallow? ..... We screwed up!

So what is sweet?

There is still a chance to conquer Satan through understanding the mystery.

We could see just how spectacular Satan's unrighteous deception has been!

There is a link to a free book pdf file in my signature.

I invite any one that wishes, to read it.


In Christ

abe

Some thoughts to ponder about the timing of events in chapters 10 and 11...

"And they say to me: “You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.” (10:11)

In what way does John prophecy about peoples, nations, tongues and many kings... again?

Straight after this, in chapter 11, we see the following:

"And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months." (11:1,2)

This is remarkably similar to Jesus' words about Jerusalem, that it is unlikely to be coincidence:

"For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:23,24)

Here is Jesus explaining his later Revelation. The "holy city" is Jerusalem, which would be "trampled" by "the nations", and that the "appointed times of the nations" would last "forty-two months".

Jesus tells us who would experience this: "great necessity upon the land and wrath upon this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations..."

"This people" was the Jews!

So chapter 11 is repeating and re-emphasizing the things Jesus had earlier spoken about while alive... therefore John prophecying again (in chapter 10) was a reference to prophecying about the nations that would bring about the destruction of Jerusalem (in chapter 11)... which history (not future speculation) shows was the Roman empire... a collection of many nations and kings, some of whom are still with us today!

Both Preterism and Futurism are false paradigms, the one saying that everything applied at or before 70AD... and the other saying everything is yet future.

Revelation commences prior to 70AD, and covers the fall of Jerusalem, but it spans all the major history including the fall of Jerusalem, and up to today... and to the end of the 1,000 years.

Jesus has already explained chapter 11 to us, in his good news. Why not listen to Jesus' explanation? I would suggest he is the best interpreter of his own revelation :D

Bitter----------------:

The temple built by the "people of the nations" (called by my name) will be profaned! (Acts 15)


2nd Thessalonians 2:8-12
8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


Sweet--------------:

A few people will see through Satan's spectacular deception!

2nd Thesalonians 2:13-14 (continued from above)
13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bride?


Sweet--------------:


Some people will be invited to see through the deception by understanding the mystery about what the angel said in regard to the seven congregations!

Revelation 22:16-17
16 “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’” 17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.


If the bride is extending an invitation then is it an invitation to the marriage feast?

What will be served as food at this feast?


Will anyone be forced to accept the invitation?


In Christ

abe

If Satan had understood the Old Testament he would not have manipulated the circumstances which led to Jesus Christ's crucifiction.

The bible was very cleverly written in such a way that Jesus Christ knew exactly what Satan would do.

Satan read the Old Testament and yet did not understand.

The New Testament is no different!

The angel explained to Daniel that the wicked (Satan and his weeds) would not understand the things sealed up for the time of the end.

Daniel 12
9 And he went on to say:“Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.


In Christ

abe

Here is a profound thought regarding the scripture above.

Paul is writing to Gentiles in 1st Century Thessalonica.

He is writing about a situation however, that will occur immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

Here is the profundity:

Is Paul thanking the 1st Century Thessalonicans or, is he thanking modern day brothers living nearly 2000 years later?

Has Paul sent a thank you in the scriptures which he knew would survive for hundreds of years before it reached his intended audience?

Through a time warp, back to the future?

Here is another profound thought;

If it was Paul's intent to thank brothers in the future and there are brothers on the planet right now who are discerning this.

How close are we to the end?


In Christ

abe

This is the sacred secret that Satan did not understand!

If he had understood then he would not have manipulated the circumstances that led to Jesus Christ's crucifiction.

The scripture above shows however, that the Old Testament really did testify beforehand.

Satan did not understand the sacred secret even though he read the Old Testament.

For this reason there are things written in the bible which cannot be revealed before their appointed time.

Once they are understood however, the FDS is obligated to feed the meat to the domestics.

These things will not always be easy to understand. (a mystery)

It is not milk, it is meat in due season (the appointed time).


In Christ

abe

These operations of error, are pits of muddied waters we all must get through and around, learning how to pass them by, without falling into them and drowning our "superiour Life" in their muddy waters.

These pits of muddied waters are taking on a greater volume now, for they are now moving floods of muddied waters seeking to drown us in this flooded muddied moving torrent river coming toward us at great speed to drown us all. They will choak the fire of the Spirit in us. We have to escape all the pits of muddied waters for our life sake. We must dare to trust ourselves upon the bare ground of Faith.
Muddy water is the natural rational Life, that must be purged by Fire. The rolling daily motions, that work from the common sense of earthly things, taken into the mind, makes it foul and muddy, and puts out the fire of the Holy Spirit, drowning out our light.

Love:heartbeat:
New Heart