Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Last night we were reading and discussing Romans 9.
This is a difficult chapter but some interesting points came out.
Readers of Paul's letters probably realise that much of his time is spent building up the Gentiles and proving to them they are not a second class christian citizen in the kingdom of the heavens.

See even back then Paul was battling a two tier system.

So verses 6, and 7 Pauls says not all those that spring from Israel are really Israel. The Israelites thought that through birth, they were special, but they were not the Israel of God, spiritual Israelites.

Verse 8 only the children of the promise not the children of the flesh are counted as God's children.
This promise was that Abraham and Sarah would have a son, Isaac.

Then he goes on to explain that Rebeka had twins from the promise, Isaac their father. Now Paul is talking to Gentiles so how could Isaac be their father?

Well Isaac's children represented the Israelites and the Gentiles.
Esau was born first and had the rights and priviledges of the firstborn, but he did not appreciate them. Jacob born second desperately desired them. This was going to have prophetic significance, because even before Rebeka gave birth Jehovah prophesied that the older would become a slave to the younger.

Paul in Romans 9 was applying this to the Gentile christians. They may be the younger twin, arriving later than the Israelites, but in God's eyes they were not the lesser ones. They were struggling to receive the blessings that the Israelites received naturally.

We might feel sorry for Esau, but Jehovah could foresee the events, foretold them so we would realise there was more to this event than birthing problems. This takes us up to and including verse 14.

Sorry I missed that discussion, Vicky (company). This sounds like an excellent analysis.

Hopefully I be there tonight.

And we missed your invaluable imput, Jim!:siskiss:

:love:Hey Vicky - are you going to post what we discussed about the clay vessels formed for honorable and dishonorable use? A real light bulb moment for me!:bulb: I've stumbled over those verses for so long thinking of us as individual clay pots... I'll stop there. :D
:thumbup: Continue on dear sis. :yes:

:peace:

IT is funny cause I was just thinking about the first and last yesterday.
I was trying to come up with a list of all of His prophetic pairs of any manner.

First adam, second adam
First esau, second jacob
First coming, second coming
Old wineskin new wine skin
Birth to rebirth into the kingdom
We have life and are yet to be resurected
We are paired as couples now. As the norm not the exception
The animals on the ark were but the exception was the clean ones which were in sevens.
Not sure what it means thou.

Revelations speaks of the last being first so it really follows what had been going on from the beginning. IT is really faith reassuring that he knew the end and scattered reoccurring instances thru the bible to give proof to those who are truly interested in how his mind works. No quick study of scripture will really produce much it seems.

The scripture from verse 21 onwards talks about vessels made out of one lump, some for an honourable use others for a dishonourable use.
Many have said this proves predestination.

The context tells us that Paul is still talking about the Jews and the Gentiles as a group. This is not talking about individuals who are chosen to be condemned at birth. This is talking about the glamourous pots and decorated urns, and conversely the ones you probably would kick under your bed. The Gentiles felt like the latter, and Paul was saying don't worry, God makes all.

Quite frankly if you get taken short at night which pot would you prefer to be at hand?

Paul talks about the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy. Speaking to the Romans he says 'we' are the vessels of mercy.

So it appears the ignoble pots become vessels of mercy.

Yes, I think the first and last should be given much thought especially in regard to Jews and Gentiles as Man Hu has pointed out in the originating post.

Jesus Christ said this to the Jewish Apostles:

Matthew 19:27-30
27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many that are first will be last and the last first.


Notice that Jesus made two conditions for sitting on those 12 thrones:

1/YOU who have followed me
2/But many that are first will be last and the last first

Judas Iscariot was likely in the audience.

There are two ways of looking at this.

1/ Were the 1st Century Apostles the first
2/ or were they the last?


If the 1st Century Jewish Apostles were the first does that mean there will be 12 more Gentile Apostles at a later date, the last?

I believe this will be so because of what Jacob told his 12 sons.

Genesis 49
1 Later on Jacob called his sons and said: “Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. 2 Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father.

If you try and match the blessing or malediction for each of the 12 sons of Jacob to the 1st Century Jewish Apostles it just does not seem to work.

Go ahead, please try it.

The only way that I can reconcile this is by believing that 12 more Apostolic figures would manifest themselves in the "final part of the days".

............. the last.


In Christ

abe

Please consider also what Jesus Christ foretold in this scripture:

Matthew 19:27-30
27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones


In the re-creation!

Does this mean that a point in time will be reached where the first and last will be reconciled?

If there are only 12 thrones and yet 24 Apostolic figures there definitely will need to be a reconciliation.

I personally think that we are still inside that period called the "gentile times".

Once the gentile times are over what next?

The Jews had their chance and the very same chance was given to the Gentiles.

The Jews lost only one Apostle - Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition.

The Apostle Paul however, describes a "son of perdition" being present immediately before the second arrival of Jesus Christ.

2nd Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When the Apostle Paul wrote this he was addressing the Gentiles.

In Genesis Chapter 49 if Jacob was foretelling what will happen to his 12 sons during the "final part of the days" then how many of these will become "sons of perdition"?

In Christ

abe

Hey ABE,

My personal view is that yes 12 latter day apostles would be chosen.
My reason for beliving such is the 24 four elders sccript.
IT might be wrong but at this point I have not heard a more reasonable answer.

and for symbolic it would give 12 fleshly and 12 by adoption or spiritual to be grafted in.
another example of pairing as well as the first and last.


And SIS, were you making a point to me? Or something else? just adding more?

Cause if you were pls let me know.

I was writing up what we discussed yesterday in the discussion room as stated.

The topic was Romans chapter 9.

I was not writing about latter day apostles, 24 elders, 12 thrones or the son of perdition, since none of these occur in that chapter.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

In Romans 11 Paul explains that those same vessels of mercy (the Gentiles) will also be disobediant which will result in mercy being once again extended to the Jews.

Everyone will be in need of mercy.

Both the Jews and the Gentiles will have had a similar opportunity and they both will blow it, so to speak.


Romans 11
25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.


The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. (Jacob the Gentiles as opposed to Esau the Jews, the first and the last)

Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.




In Christ

abe

So who IS the remnant?

Romans 9
27 Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved.

Will they be sons of Jacob?

If so how many will remain?

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.


In Christ

abe

Totaldismay,

Yes, It does give evidence for why there might be 24 elders when there is to be only 12 leaders of the tribes of Israel.

Did you read Genesis Chapter 49 and try to reconcile the blessings or maledictions to the 12 1st Century Apostles?

As man hu noted above there are different kinds of vessels.

Genesis 49 seems to describe those vessels in more detail.

How many receive a blessing and how many a malediction?

I would like to know your opinion.


In Christ

abe

This is interesting.

Did you try and reconcile Genesis Ch49 to the 1st Century Apostles?

Both Judah and Joseph receive an extraordinary blessing.

Yet they had different birth mothers.

Could this also have prophetic significance?


In Christ

abe

Saturday's bible reading of Roman's 9 brought out a lot of details that got us all excited. Here's another:

"For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. For the word of promise was as follows: “At this time I will come and Sarah will have a son.”  Yet not that case alone, but also when Re·bek′ah conceived twins from the one [man], Isaac our forefather:  for when they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, in order that the purpose of God respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not upon works, but upon the One who calls,  it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.”  Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but E′sau I hated.” -- Romans 9:6-13

This whole chapter seems to be about God's choosing. In the normal course of things, Ishmael would have superseded Isaac as son. But God's promise and blessing would come through Sarah, not Hagar.

"For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman;  but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise.  These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar.  Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children.  But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." -- Galatians 4:22-26

In the same vein, under normal circumstances Esau's position as firstborn of Rebekah and Isaac would stand. But Jehovah, perhaps by means of genetic profiling, chose Jacob the second born to inherit the promise. Both boys were made of the same lump (Isaac and Rebekah). But one served an honorable purpose and the other without honor.

The conclusion was already stated by Paul earlier in verse 6, namely:

" ... not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel."

The nation of Israel as a whole believed that their descent from Abraham automatically made them sons of God. Paul is saying in Romans 9 and Galatians 4 that the nation of Israel was in slavery as if they had been born of Hagar.

The sons of God's choosing were Abraham's seed by reason of their faith in Christ -- sons of the free woman, Sarah.

(more of my impressions later)

Love, Rez:siskiss:

The answer is no, “they” are not the physical “sons of Jacob”. Paul’s words in Romans 9 must be understood in the light of Paul’s words in Colossians 3:

“...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth´i•an, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Colossians 3:11

As the author of this thread points out, Christians are not in a two tier system: In God’s sight all mankind stands as one under the ransom of the Son. The physical “sons of Jacob” do not hold sway over Gentiles any more than the heaven bound hold sway over those that will not be heaven bound. In the New Covenant all persons are equal in everything, and the “remnant” of the sons of Jacob remain - not because of their fleshly heritage - but their spiritual heritage.

Romans 11 divulges much in the way of inspired understanding in this. While God “did not reject his people, did he?” per Romans 11:1 , neither did he accept them in their fleshy state - as physical sons of Abraham – but as spiritual sons of Sarah. This is a key point for us to understand, that God does not care about fleshly origins, only spiritual ones.

Think: Had Adam and Eve never sinned, there never would have been need for all this Jews and Gentiles stuff - mankind would have blossomed into the many ethnic groups without distinction. The only reason the nation of Israel was “chosen” to begin with, was to show the complete futility that even an act of God “choosing” any national group – as long as Sin reigned supreme - would have any effect on the core problems. The nation of Israel was nothing but a case history, a crash test dummy, that showed up the need – not for Law – not for “chosen nations” by flesh – but for redemption of sin.

Redemption of sin! That’s it! Paul’s many dissertations in Romans address the relationships between sin and the problems of mankind - and the barriers to true worship – that emphasizes the need for one thing: The removal of sin apart from any issues around flesh.


v r