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Hi Folks

I was reading the account of the transfiguration a while back, and suddenly I noticed something that I didn't realize before - and then just last night, something else struck me which I thought was worth sharing with you good folks.

Luke's account of the transfiguration gives a bit more detail than Mathew's and it's this detail that struck me, because it seems I had been misinterpreting it before. I have highlighted the extra detail:

"In actual fact, about eight days after these words, he took Peter and John and James along and climbed up into the mountain to pray. And as he was praying the appearance of his face became different and his apparel became glitteringly white. Also, look! two men were conversing with him, who were Moses and Elijah. These appeared with glory and began talking about his departure that he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem." (Luke 9:28-31)

Now, maybe I'm thick... or maybe it was WT think... but I always assumed the departure he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem was simply him going to Jerusalem to be put to death.

But then it hit me... hang on... it sounds more likely that Moses and Elijah are conversing with him about his departure from Jerusalem TO HEAVEN... the one talked about in Acts 1!

(OK, maybe everyone already knows that... but for some reason, I've never noticed that.)

Anyway, last night I was thinking of this account, with the two men Moses and Elijah... and it suddenly occurred to me...

... TWO MEN? Departure?

Now listen to what happens just after Jesus departs from his disciples:

"And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky." (Acts 1:9-11)

Now, the account gives us no clue as to who these "two men" are. I had assumed they were angels... but we're not actually told that. All we know about them is that there were two of them, and they wore white garments.

Could it be, I wondered, that these two men were actually Moses and Elijah... and this was actually the fulfillment of the transfiguration vision that Peter, James and John had seen?

Of course, that had some intriguing implications...

Why did Luke not identify them as Moses and Elijah in Acts? (But then... if many did not recognize the resurrected Jesus at first by sight, is it possible they wouldn't have recognized the resurrected Moses and Elijah?)

Why would Moses and Elijah have been resurrected, but not others?

There is also a strange passage in Mathew, that seems to imply some kind of a resurrection took place, but some view it as merely dead bodies being thrown out... but it could also read like a resurrection of holy ones:

"And, look! the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split. And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people. (Mathew 27:51-53)

This has got to be one of the weirdest passages of scripture, because it SOUNDS more like a kind of resurrection than a mere throwing out of dead bodies!

But perhaps a very limited resurrection did take place... just as Jesus himself was about to be resurrected... possibly including no less figures than Moses and Elijah!

I admit I find this possibility a bit startling... but it does seem to make sense of the transfiguration vision, and perhaps explain the mysterious passage in Mathew, and the "two men" in Luke.

There are other scriptures which may be relevant to this, but I find the whole thing a bit strange... but could it be that the depature of Acts 1 is the departure seen in the transfiguration... and could that explain the identity of the two men?

Talk to me, people... talk to me! :icecream:
Euricca! ITPT, I believe you've had epiphany! I never connected Acts 1 with the Transfiguration either.
Perhaps Luke didn't identify the two men because he wasn't present at the T. I Checked the Diaglott, and it refers to Jesus' resurection immediately after his death. Not 40 days later. Interesting! The tombs of the Holy Ones opening up is also significant, but of what?
Good work! :thumbup:
This also helps explain the scrip. at 1 petr 3:19,
"he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison"
The WT view has always been, that Jesus was DEAD for parts of 3 days. His body was dead yes, but he was made alive in the spirit!
We don't even know what happened to his body after the tomb was closed.
Hey e-magine :D

e-magine Wrote:
Perhaps Luke didn't identify the two men because he wasn't present at the T.


Very possibly... I still find it strange, because Luke writes about the transfiguration, even though he didn't see it himself, so I presume Peter, James and John eventually shared their story. But nobody seems to have identified the two men.

Is it possible they were Moses and Elijah but nobody recognized them? :shocked:

Quote:
I Checked the Diaglott, and it refers to Jesus' resurection immediately after his death. Not 40 days later. Interesting!


Interesting, indeed! :thumbsup:

Quote:
The tombs of the Holy Ones opening up is also significant, but of what?
Good work! :thumbup:


Well, that's THE question! I don't think we've considered this possibility before (that of the resurrection of Moses and Elijah in 33AD), and even with my Preterism I've never really considered this aspect before.

Quote:
This also helps explain the scrip. at 1 petr 3:19,
"he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison"
The WT view has always been, that Jesus was DEAD for parts of 3 days. His body was dead yes, but he was made alive in the spirit!
We don't even know what happened to his body after the tomb was closed.


Yes, this does seem to be connected.

I also realized another connection between Moses, Elijah and Jesus. ALL OF THEM had a period with God of forty days and forty nights. I don't know whether that's significant or not yet. :D

Interpretum Wrote:
Could it be, I wondered, that these two men were actually Moses and Elijah... and this was actually the fulfillment of the transfiguration vision that Peter, James and John had seen?

Of course, that had some intriguing implications...


Indeed. Even better yet, Jesus flat out said that John the Baptist WAS Elijah....

Matt 17:12 However, I say to YOU that E·li´jah has already come and they did not recognize him but did with him the things they wanted. In this way also the Son of man is destined to suffer at their hands.”

...but of course, that would imply the "R" word....:shocked:

Interpretum Wrote:
There is also a strange passage in Mathew, that seems to imply some kind of a resurrection took place, but some view it as merely dead bodies being thrown out... but it could also read like a resurrection of holy ones:

"And, look! the curtain of the sanctuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split. And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people. (Mathew 27:51-53)

This has got to be one of the weirdest passages of scripture, because it SOUNDS more like a kind of resurrection than a mere throwing out of dead bodies!


I think I remember from my research that the first part of verse 53, in parenthesis, is a known interpolation, not appearing in the Sinaitic text, and the entire passage is questionable.

Other than that, great find! :thumbup:

:heartbeat:
Jesh

lemme see. :thinking: so, where are moses and elijah now? :dontknow: where have they been for over two thousand years? :dontknow: what have they been doing? :dontknow: and don't the scriptures say that jesus is the "firstborn from the dead"? :dontknow:

ps: methinks jesus was resurrected on the third day following his death, not forty days later. :whistle:

Jesh, Thanks for bringing up the R word, but isn't reincarnation just another word for resurection? Because Peter, James and John had no idea what Elijah looked like, Jesus must have identified them somehow. Also, the Transfiguration occurred sometime after John the Baptist's death. Even if parts of Math 27:53 were not in the Sinaitic text, that isn't proof that it is not inspired. It seems important that Mathew specifically states that it is the Holy Ones that were raised up and many people saw them.

isomam Wrote:

so, where are moses and elijah now? :dontknow: where have they been for over two thousand years? :dontknow: what have they been doing? :dontknow: and don't the scriptures say that jesus is the "firstborn from the dead"? :dontknow:

ps: methinks jesus was resurrected on the third day following his death, not forty days later. :whistle:


Hi Iso! true, Luke says at Acts 10:40 that God Raised him up on the third day. But is this "raising up" the same as the "resurection" mention about him right after his death in Math27:53?It appears not. This would assure that he was the first born from the dead to immortality. (Others were raised up before Jesus' death).
That explains why if Moses and Elijah were raised up, they also died again, as Lazarus did.
This would alow for Moses and Elijah being the 2 men at Acts 1: 10-11.

isomam Wrote:
lemme see. :thinking: so, where are moses and elijah now? :dontknow: where have they been for over two thousand years? :dontknow: what have they been doing? :dontknow: and don't the scriptures say that jesus is the "firstborn from the dead"? :dontknow:

ps


Jesus wasnt the first to be resurrected. There were resurrections in the OT and by Jesus, (Lazarus, Jairus daughter, etc).

Firstborn here means preeminence.

e-magine Wrote:
isn't reincarnation just another word for resurrection?


:shocked: c'mon, brother. give me a break.

Yannis Wrote:

isomam Wrote:
lemme see. :thinking: so, where are moses and elijah now? :dontknow: where have they been for over two thousand years? :dontknow: what have they been doing? :dontknow: and don't the scriptures say that jesus is the "firstborn from the dead"? :dontknow:

ps


Jesus wasnt the first to be resurrected. There were resurrections in the OT and by Jesus, (Lazarus, Jairus daughter, etc).

Firstborn here means preeminence.


hi, yannis. :hibye: yes, of course i am aware of those resurrections. but all of those people died again. jesus was the first to be resurrected -- never to die again.

isomam Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
isn't reincarnation just another word for resurrection?


:shocked: c'mon, brother. give me a break.


No break:
1)Car"nate\, a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh.
2) in⋅car⋅nate  /adj. ɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt; v. ɪnˈkɑrneɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [adj. in-kahr-nit, -neyt; v. in-kahr-neyt] Show IPA adjective, verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.
Use incarnate in a Sentence
See web results for incarnate
See images of incarnate
–adjective 1. embodied in flesh; given a bodily, esp. a human, form: a devil incarnate.
2. personified or typified, as a quality or idea: chivalry incarnate.
3) re⋅in⋅car⋅nate  /v. ˌriɪnˈkɑrneɪt; adj. ˌriɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. ree-in-kahr-neyt; adj. ree-in-kahr-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
Use reincarnate in a Sentence
See web results for reincarnate
See images of reincarnate
–verb (used with object) 1. to give another body to; incarnate again.

–adjective 2. incarnate anew.

A reincarnation is a resurection.

e-magine Wrote:

isomam Wrote:

e-magine Wrote:
isn't reincarnation just another word for resurrection?


:shocked: c'mon, brother. give me a break.


No break:
1)Car"nate\, a. [L. carnatus fleshy.] Invested with, or embodied in, flesh.
2) in⋅car⋅nate  /adj. ɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt; v. ɪnˈkɑrneɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [adj. in-kahr-nit, -neyt; v. in-kahr-neyt] Show IPA adjective, verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing.
Use incarnate in a Sentence
See web results for incarnate
See images of incarnate
–adjective 1. embodied in flesh; given a bodily, esp. a human, form: a devil incarnate.
2. personified or typified, as a quality or idea: chivalry incarnate.
3) re⋅in⋅car⋅nate  /v. ˌriɪnˈkɑrneɪt; adj. ˌriɪnˈkɑrnɪt, -neɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. ree-in-kahr-neyt; adj. ree-in-kahr-nit, -neyt] Show IPA verb, -nat⋅ed, -nat⋅ing, adjective
Use reincarnate in a Sentence
See web results for reincarnate
See images of reincarnate
–verb (used with object) 1. to give another body to; incarnate again.

–adjective 2. incarnate anew.

A reincarnation is a resurection.


we'll have to agree to disagree.

now, i'm gonna take a break -- even if i had to go get my own. :D

isomam Wrote:

now, i'm gonna take a break -- even if i had to go get my own. :D


C'mon to my house! I'll feed ya. :thumbup:

Nice idea Terp, but I think you are wrong.
I don't think I have the energy though to start dissecting this, with the spurious, the mistimings and the reincarnations.
I am off for a break.
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