Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

“These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.” Revelation 14:4-5

I’d like to explore the meaning of this Scripture as a way to better understand the kind of qualities that these ones possess.

As I’m seeing things the 144K are persons that are chosen out of the general population of * “every tribe of the sons of Israel” for specialized **administrative roles in God’s purpose of straightening out errant mankind. As kings and priests, these ones are selected based on certain criteria.

“… keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes”
Where does the Lamb “go” such that following him “no matter where he goes” would become a selection criteria? Consider: Millions of persons since Jesus left the earth have sought to worship YHWH “in spirit and truth”. To the chagrin of many even most this journey has not been easy due to persecutions, dealing with “wolves” and causes for stumbling inside and out of the ecclesias, let alone dealing with one’s own imperfections and mistakes. Yet still these ones persevere.

Jesus said that “if they persecuted me they will persecute YOU”, so everyone knew that going in. To have the internal stuff to stick with Jesus no matter what comes defines persons of the kind of faith that is part of the selection criteria for a king and priest. Not that these ones have to be perfect in every way during their course of life on the earth – but their core qualities through intense trial are found by Jesus to be steadfast and unrequited. A faith building and inspiring read is Foxes Book of Martyrs that outlines the historical accounts of many who proved their faith to the very death.

Mankind will be able to have the highest regard for the choices made for kings and priests. Being taken from various periods in history and selected for certain of their life’s experiences we can be sure of a staff of kings and priests that will be able to understand every walk of life that people underwent from pauper to king. Mercy and understanding coupled with perfect justice and the ability to heal all malfunctions physical mental and emotional will be the hallmark of the administration conducted by “the firstfruits”.

Another “place” that the Lamb goes and these ones follow is into the weird realms of the post “thought I had the truth” spiritual tailspin. It’s an awful experience that requires internal fortitude and reliance on God to recover from. Many here know what it means to have gone around for many years thinking you had “all the truth”, and were a member of an organization that billed itself as being God's own spokesman. When their personal ship of faith started to list hard to port and the storm waves started breaking over the deck, it was a hard decision to jump head first into the uncharted waters of “where next” – to be bobbing about in the turbulent storm waters of spiritual confusion - as they watched their ship of faith slip below the waves and into the blackness.

Where next? Was there no God at all? Was there no Truth to be found? These ones never doubted for a second that there was pure Truth and a God, but they sure had to re-think “where next”. Its amazing to me where the “where next” brought me and I believe the people here, into the exact place that Jesus so cryptically said - “when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth." (John 16:13)

Just like Jesus said really did happen as disenfranchised ones begin to be led to the real truth in a manner they could never have expected – or understood – had they not lived through the personal experience of having their “ship of faith” sink right before their eyes. And just like Jesus said, “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present” John 16:12. What “things” did Jesus have in mind? How about the experience most of us have had and that drove us to where we are now, sharing and expressing matters of faith completely apart from any sort of “organization”? Just like Jesus said, it is the Holy Spirit that guides the general * body of Christ here on the earth, and not any sort of organizations.

Who are the prospective 144K?
I believe that many of them are right here on these dbs, as well as peppered throughout all the various religions where persons have experienced similar tests of their spiritual mettle, throughout at least the gospel age till present. Members of the administration are ones that are time tested in their ability to deal with challenges, and that always have the drive to resolve questions of faith for themselves and others. Being ones that will not accept the Lie, they do as Jesus said by “keep on knocking” on any and all doors of faith challenge, until they get the answers. And if the answers are slow in coming, they keep on knocking because they are convinced there are answers to all questions even if they haven’t found some of them yet.

The roles and qualities of the 144K
I think that the 144K reflect the qualities of “the faithful and discreet slave” of the parable, since these ones appear to be truly insightful in that they apportion “food” – “at the proper time” –to the “domestics”. Jesus asked the question. “who really is the faithful and discreet slave”, as if to be saying that not everyone would be up to the task of being one. To be tested for the important work of being a king and a priest to administer straightening out an entire planet requires persons with outstanding qualities as seen by the fact that “no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.” These ones are relentless and proactive in researching the answers to the questions of faith as well as in working to assist others where they can particularly ones that have had their faith structures wrecked by religious organizations.

What is the food, and why is “time” involved? Who are the “domestics”?
I think that the “food” involves the provision of spiritual assistance of many kinds - verbal or written and even physical – that are provided when and where needed as persons are actually facing the challenges – the time factor - that assist persons to succeed in their faith. The “domestics” are persons that haven’t “been there” yet, and benefit from the ones that have. Such “domestics” themselves become “faithful and discreet” and no doubt under consideration as a king and priest. Not everyone “gets it”, so the ones that do are truly special to God and Christ as far as having the qualities for the huge work of king and priest. This is not to say that these ones consider themselves better than everyone else - this is about "roles" and matching skillsets to tasks. They make themselves lesser ones in their conduct and attitude towards others as Jesus did. This is also part of following the Lamb “no matter where he goes”, as far as following him in the lead he sets as to humility.

How “without blemish” and having “no falsehood in their mouths”?
The 144K are persons that are not duplicitous, and they are willing to admit that their conclusions on matters may not be completely correct but their best guess and that they will “keep on seeking”. These ones seek to have no part in false teachings and will go out of their way to find the real Truth to the point of being castigated. The teachings they have are a result of their own personal convictions and not the rantings of any spiritual “authority” figures that they defer their better judgment to and or accept their authority over them. These ones look only to YHWH through the Son for their direction, and are complete in their hearts and in their efforts. These persons are given insights into real Truth as Jesus said would happen.

Summary
So following the Lamb no matter where he goes is no turkey shoot but a very unusual Journey that requires much in the way of individual chutz and determination. The power is not of our own no matter if we are under consideration for the 144K or not, but supernatural power via the Holy Spirit. I think that Paul the apostle considered “the upward calling” as a goal to be strived for, by persons who really want to be in that sort of role. Not everyone does, being any sort of administrator is a lot of work and responsibility and it takes a certain edge and drive to desire and succeed in such a role. So we should all be very thankful that YHWH and the Son Jesus will make these choices wisely and based on performance and the possession of key qualities that will put them in good stead as kings and priests - that mankind will be excited to work under.



v r



* “spiritual” Israel - all Christians

** “It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ.” Ephesians 1:9-10

excellent post..keep on feeding Christ's doves... may the spirit of truth guide your path each and every day. The morning star has risen in your heart, Halalujah!! You are the reason I am living, and the reason I keep going.

Love:heartbeat:

:)

Faithful and Truth

Hi veritas

Please take the following statement in the sincere quest for Truth that it is :D ... but a lot of your post is based on human reasoning and speculation, rather than scripture.

First of all, the entire nation - not just the 144,000 - are a "kingdom and priests":

"Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:9,10)

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hand" (Rev 7:9)

The great multitude ARE that "kingdom and priests", along with the 144,000 from Israel.

That the "great multitude" are also priests is easily verified. They are described in this manner:

"Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence." (7:15)

And Jesus says of anyone who conquers (not just a small, exclusive "club"):

"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 3:12,13)

Once again, Jesus says in reference to becoming kings:

"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 3:21,22)

Neither of these two scriptures limit the number of "the one who conquers" to merely 144,000!

Similarly, neither does the first resurrection in Revelation 20 place a limit on their number:

"And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6)

Neither can these resurrected ones be the 144,000, because they (the 144,000) are already described in Revelation 14 as "standing upon the Mount Zion" with the Lamb, singing songs before God's throne... some 6 chapters earlier than the first resurrection!

Finally (for now), nowhere in Revelation are we given the impression that the 144,000 appear over the entire gospel age. Again, this is imposing vestiges of Watchtower reasoning that is simply not true.

They appear in chapter 7 for a REASON. Just prior to their description, there is a scene in which the people go into hiding and cry out to the mountains (just as Jesus had foretold in the gospels):

"Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev 6:16)

That last question is answered in chapter 7, because there we see the 144,000 and "great multitude" standing before the throne of God and the Lamb!

However, they appear because the "four winds" are being held back, with the angel crying out:

"Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads." (Rev 7:3)

Only once the "seven trumpets" commence in Revelation 8, is the earth, sea and trees harmed:

"And the first one blew his trumpet. And there occurred a hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up." (Rev 8:7)

So it's clear that the 144,000 cannot simply appear gradually over a period of some 2,000 years... they both appear, and are sealed, within the narrow time frame of the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:12), and the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8:7).

So scripture tells us plainly enough:

(1) ALL (both 144,000 and great multitude) are a kingdom and priests,

(2) ALL who conquer can sit with Christ on his throne,

(3) ALL who conquer can become pillars in the Temple,

(4) ALL those who are martyred and avoided the mark get to be priests and kings,

(5) The 144,000 appear and are sealed within a narrow time frame.

My philosophy is... if we require convoluted human reasoning to explain something that actually contradicts the plain teachings of the Bible, then we need to bring our beliefs into harmony with the Bible.

If we really ARE seekers of Truth, then we need to "hear what the spirit says to the congregations", and not impose human reasoning on these things.

I hope you will take these things in the spirit of truth seeking rather than personal criticism :drinking:

Interpretum you have raised some points for discussion worthy of consideration that were presented in the spirit of understanding this topic. I share your view on the need to be seekers of truth, and while we may not agree on all points I can say that your post sent me back to scripturally - and rationally - consider the reasons for where I’m at on the 144K topic.

And having done that over the last week, it looks like we’ll have to at least for now agree to disagree since it seems clear to me that there is a separate group that serves a specialized purpose much the same as the ancient priests did under the Law to Israel – which - since that history was a shadow of things to come - seems to validate the idea of a kings/priests group that serve in a similar capacity on behalf of others under the New Covenant.

I want to clarify that the qualities of faith and faithfulness are required and shared by all Christians, so I don’t see the 144K as unique in that respect or that they are some sort of elitist club that are in some way a cut above the rest. Jesus said “all YOU are brothers” - and that one is Leader - the Christ. So the reward for faithfulness for everyone is everlasting life – somewhere.

The model of ancient Israel I believe lends credence to a specific group since under the old covenant there was the priestly class through the sons of Aaron and only they were selected to officiate at the temple. A “special group”? Yes, but one ordained by the Law. These priests had work to do in offering the various sacrifices according to the Law - which indicates that they were expected to know the Law.


* Reasons why the 144K appear to be a limited group

Jesus said:
28 "You have stayed with me through my struggles. 29 Just as my Father has given me a kingdom, I also give you a kingdom 30 so you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30 - New Century Version

From this scripture there is correlation from Revelation 7 that there are ones selected out of some sort of general population:

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Revelation 7:4

Per Revelation 14 there are points - that if are unique to the 144K group - would eliminate the idea that all Christians become kings and priests for the thousand years. Let’s take a look at a couple of the details of the 144K group:

They are seen standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb.

They are “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” – being “bought from among mankind”.

They “sing a new song” that “no one was able to master” but them.

There is a fixed number that are sealed – out of – every tribe of the sons of Israel.


14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish. Revelation 14:1-5

If there are firstfruits, there must be second fruits. If there is a first resurrection, there must be a second resurrection. If there is a second death, there must be a first death. So reasoning on points in scripture should lead to conclusions that, while admittedly speculative, must at least attempt to correlate to one another. And since not all details are specifically laid out in scripture, there is room for filling in the blanks – “human reasoning” is an accurate term – but along scriptural guidelines. If everything were spelled out word for word, there would be no need for God’s spirit that makes it possible for some people to understand while at the same time others don’t.

An example I would cite as to the correct use of “human reasoning” along scriptural boundaries - is the reference to Rev 5:9, 10:

"Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:9,10)

Consider: This scripture simply says there have been “people” ransomed for God from every tribe, and that they constitute a kingdom of priests. That these “people” are seen as ransomed from the earth does not mean they are the only ones ransomed. That they are specified as a kingdom of priests does not specify that all ones ransomed are kings and priests. This in my view is a jump in logic – an erroneous assumption - the same as what the WT does in claiming that the only ones technically falling under the ransom of Christ are the 144K.

Another example:
"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 3:12,13)

This does not say that there are not other ones that “conquer” – at some other location than within the “temple of my God”. Again this is the sort of logic the WT uses to say that only the 144K group worship in the “naos” – as they claim heaven itself – while the rest of of Christians are not even in the New Covenant at all.

And again:
"The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 3:21,22)

There is no mention of a number as to "the one who conquers", so we can’t assume anything as far as how many are in this group, or that there are not others somewhere else that also are ones who conquer.

Summary
The Lamb’s wife is seen as New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven adorned as a bride. Revelation 22:17 points up the role of the bride of Christ as empowered and key - toward others: 17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.

It appears to me that the bride, New Jerusalem, and the 144,000 are the same group and that this group are who serve with Christ for 1,000 years as the "new heavens" that work as administrators of the "new earth". And, I really like the idea that they serve on the earth.



* To look at the option that all Christians are the kings and priests, that leaves us with the question of who these ones are kings and priests over. This is an idea that could have merit if the resurrected masses of mankind that never knew about Christ or YHWH are the ones the 144K are priests and kings over. Comments on this idea could be useful.




v r

Wonderful posts V R !

Heres just a few little thoughts I've been throwing around my head.

The 144k are selected from among all christians. Rev 7:4

They make up the Bride.

Rev chapter 7:1-8 tells us the total number (144k) that are chosen and helps us to see that they are taken from a larger group of ones who are Gods people. The structure is the same as with the ancient nation of Isreal with the exception that the ones chosen are from all "tribes" rather than just Levi. But really this is as it should have been since the tribe of Levi substituted for the firstborns of the other tribes.

Now Rev. chapter 7:9-17 tells us of a "great crowd". I have been considering that this "great crowd" is a PART of the 144k, specifically the ones who are alive at the time of the Lords return.

1.) Their exact number is not disclosed, its just seen as a lot of people. Likewise we do not know how many will be alive of the 144k at Christ return, but suppose it is a majority. Say ,for instance, 75,000 out of the 144,000. That would be a "great crowd".

2.) They have white robes. Rev.7:9,13. The chosen ones who died previously are given white robes as they wait "until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and brothers who were about to be killed". Rev.8:11. If past ones recieve white robes then it would reason that their "fellow slaves" (of the 144k) would also recieve white robes at their deaths.

3.) They have palm branches in their hands. Rev.7:9. This reminds us of when Jesus was welcomed into Jerusalem as King. So possibly these ones are the ones of the 144k who were alive on earth when Jesus returned, they took notice and welcomed Him before their deaths.

4.) They are before the throne and render sacred service in His Temple. Rev. 7:9,15. To me this has always been pretty obvious that we are talking about heaven. The problem was that we already had the 144k in heaven so how could this "great crowd" be in heaven too? Well, they could if they were actually the same group, just a specific portion of that group. Also the fact that they render service in the temple shows us that they are chosen for a special duty....as priests.

5.) They come out of the great tribulation. Rev. 7:14. The term "come out" has always been seen as "lived thru". But it dosnt necessarily mean that, it could mean that they "conquer", or are faithful to death despite the tribulation. So they "come out" victorious!

6.) The one seated on the throne will spread His tent OVER them. Rev.7:15. If you spread your tent over someone they are then in your tent. Notice how this is differant from what is found at Rev.21:3, where we find Gods tent WITH mankind. The differance is that the ones in chapter 7 are in Gods tent (the heavens, the temple) since it is over them. The verses at Rev. 21 are speaking of New Jerusalem (the Bride, the 144k) coming down to represent Gods Kingdom on earth, thus Gods tent is "WITH" mankind. The Tabernacle (or tent) is With mankind, the 144k serve IN the Tabernacle were they are Kings and Priests.

7.)Rev. chapter 7: 16,17 are special words of encouragement to those ones of the 144k who are alive at the Lords return and face the full wrath of satan and his wildbeast and harlot. They need to be reassured that " God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

So possibly the whole 7th chapter is about the 144k who will rule with Jesus as Kings and Priests, the later part of the chapter just highlights the ones who are alive at Christs return because they have a especially important role in their work as the final witness to the world. Rev 11:3

:heartbeat:christian love, Jayme :read:

Hi veritas re

I think it's a fair point to seek correlations. In the case of the "priestly class", is it possible that they don't correspond to the 144,000 at all... but to the apostles and elders, who would have had the responsibility in the Christian "nation" to know the law, as it were?

I personally think that is what the "faithful and discreet slave" parable of Jesus is all about. The only people we see who are given any authority in the gospels are the apostles, and certain disciples when sent out on preaching missions... and later, in Acts we see appointment of elders, to "shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]" in Paul's words. (Acts 20:28)

I would suggest to you that it's the apostles and elders who take on the closest role to that of priests, in the New Testament.

I think this scripture gets misapplied a lot. If we go back to an earlier time, Jesus spells out exactly how many thrones were involved:

"Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mathew 19:27,28)

It's clear that there were 12 thrones because there were 12 apostles, and 12 tribes of Israel... he is talking exclusively to his 12 apostles here. And in Luke 22, he's also talking exclusively to his apostles - except he didn't speak about 12 tribes because Judas was about to betray him, and was not one who was going to stay with Jesus through his struggles, as Jesus says in verse 28.

Not that there aren't other thrones... I'm simply saying these passages apply exclusively to his apostles.

Don't you find it peculiar that neither Revelation 7 nor Revelation 14 give any direct indication at all that this group are actually either kings, or priests?

Not that I'm saying they're not... what I am saying is that the passages are identifying them for some other reason. (I personally believe what's distinctive about them is that they are Jewish Christians... very literally, firstfruits!).

This is in contrast to, say, the great crowd, who are given qualities associated with the temple.

Absolutely... but there were only one set of people who could ever qualify to be firstfruits... namely, the Jews who followed Jesus!

Jesus first harvested his own nation... "The harvest, indeed, is great, but the workers are few. Therefore beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest" (Luke 10:2). Indeed, his entire ministry was to the house of Israel alone.

So I would strongly urge you to consider the possibility that the 144,000 were Jewish Christians, and that Revelation 7 is actually interpreting to us their identity... "sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel"... and not in a spiritual Israel sense... in contrast with the great crowd "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues".

I wonder... what language could John use, to convince you that the 144,000 were from the sons of Israel? ;)

Fair comment. It's just sometimes I get the feeling we see four legs, know that dogs have four legs, and therefore conclude that we're looking at a dog. :D

Fair point - especially as, in Israel there was only ever one king at a time, and a limited number of priests.

Yes. Sometimes I think we can "theologize" certain statements of Jesus too much. Jesus says "little flock", and it becomes a doctrine... or gives a parable concerning a faithful and discreet slave, and it's used as the basis of the authority structure of an entire religion!

I'd suggest that you are missing just one key element of this - that New Jerusalem is also a restored physical Jerusalem of the future!

If you read Zechariah 14 (especially verses 8-11), you'll see the beautiful correlation between this prophecy, and the one in Revelation 22.

It is clear to me that Zechariah 14 is talking about physical Jerusalem, because verses 10 and 11 give the specific geography around Jerusalem... from which "living waters will go forth" (not to mention God stepping down onto the Mount of Olives, in verse 4).

So this is the missing key to the puzzle that the WTS never gave us. You may really like the idea of them serving on the earth, and I'd say the Bible agrees with you, and tells us specifically where on earth... Jerusalem!

New Jerusalem IS Jerusalem, but a glorified, restored and redeemed Jerusalem of the future, whose inhabitants will finally say, "Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!"... the condition for its inhabitants to see him again! (Mathew 23:39)

And this is another reason why I believe the 144,000 are Jewish Christians... because there's a fair chance they will inhabit this city (being themselves Jews), along with the 12 apostles who will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

I appreciate this is difficult to accept for many, especially since Christians are conditioned to see everything as "spiritual Israel" and "spiritual Jerusalem" or "the Jerusalem above"... but the most logical place for this Jerusalem above to come down to is... Jerusalem! - the place that, since ancient times, has been associated with the worship of God, and was the location of God's house of prayer for ALL NATIONS!

I think it's worth considering the possibility that the idea of "king" in the New Testament is not so much about being king over other people... but about being king over one's own body... i.e. of an incorruptible nature.

This is why death has no authority over those in the "first resurrection" ... because they become "kings". For everyone else, Death still rules over them as king.

Incidentally, I just noticed a significant difference between the NWT, and other translations - which may have a bearing on this issue.

Read Revelation 20:4 in the NWT, and then read the same verse in other translations, and see if you can spot the difference:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...KJV#vrsn/4

:thumbsup:I'm loving this conversation and trying to keep up!

NASB - Rev. 20:4: Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

KIT: And I saw thrones, and threr were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshipped neither the wild beast nor his image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.(tsk, tsk, oh that pesky Interlinear!)

"as kings" is not there in the Greek.

:thumbsup:Keep up the good work brothers, we might figure this out yet!

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

:peace:

Interesting find! That's not quite what I had in mind... the word "reigned" does appear in the Interlinear.

I'll highlight the bit where the NWT significantly differs from most other translations:

"And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Rev 20:4, NWT)

The word "Yes" is a thought-stopper. It links the previous sentence to the next, and makes them the same.

Now look at other translations:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (KJV)

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a* thousand years." (NKJV)

"Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (NLT)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (NIV)

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (ESV)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (RSV)

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;" (YNG)

In other words, other translations here more faithfully follow the Greek, which does not automatically show that those who sit down on thrones to judge are the same as the souls beheaded!

That is why the NWT went with "Yes" instead of "And" (it is "And" in the Greek), to impose their theology on the verse!

The original Greek, along with most of the other major translations, do not demonstrate that the ones judging and the ones being resurrected are the same people!

This is highly significant for our theology of the 144,000, I would suspect... or at the very least, our identity of those in the "first resurrection". :D

Glad you raised the topic Veritas,

In support you might like to explore the Greek word translated goes at Rev 14:4. The Greek word here is hoopagouo (#5217 literally, lead [oneself] under. withdraw or retire) to withdraw, as opposed to poroomahee (#4198 literally, to traverse, travel). This distinction is not made clear in English, which is a pity as the full impact of the original is lost.

For instance read John 14:2-6 where both words are used. The following quote is from the NW translation, rendering
withdraw for hoopaggouo and go for poroomahee:

…Otherwise I would have told you, because I am going to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that here I am you also may be. And where I withdraw to you know the way. Thomas said to him: “Lord, we do not know where you are withdrawing to. How do we know the way?” Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me...

They had been going/following Jesus wherever he went, but when Jesus spoke of going under or withdrawing they understood he would be leaving them behind. In this light Thomas’ question makes much more sense does it not?

This word going under or withdrawing is the word used at Rev 14:4

With warmth,
coccus ilicis

Hi Jayme,

Just a quick note without starting a new thread, these ones (Greek 'souls') under the altar or at the base of the altar who are given white robes (Rev 6:9-11) may not be ones that have literally been killed (in the Lord’s day Rev 1;10) but could refer to those who are living in the Lord’s day who have been figuratively killed by organized religion and are not able to serve (figuratively speaking as priests) at the altar of organized religion (as represented by the 7 lamp stands, Rev1:20) . Pictorially they are at the base of the altar where the sacrificial blood is poured (Lev 4:7) as indicated by the white robes. These may end up being the 'two witnesses of Rev 11:3, 4 (the figurative 2 lamp stands remaining out of the original 7, see Rev 2:5) but that is another subject.

It's all coming together,

Love, coccus Ilicis

I really hate to do this but I must for the sake of us that dont understand Greek.
Tell me please in what way do these words change Gods purpose ?
Are these words nessesary for our salvation ?
I am serious, is there some word in jaymes or veritas post that would change ones thinking to Gods purpose ?
Please share .
Keep in mind most of Christ apostles were unlettered. Jesus did not speak Greek, yet his disicples were able to understand every thing he said, ( Speaking only for myself )
On the other hand veritas post was very easy to understand, made perfect sense to me , where I really could not follow your post.
Did you get anything at all out of vr's post ?
Just asking :thinking:

vr,

That was a great post!

Yep, I agree that being thrown out or withdrawing from an organization seems like an unusual and sometimes unbearable thing to happen for someone who wants to follow Jesus Christ.

That is however, what happened to Jesus Christ and his 1st Century followers.

Hebrew 13
Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, 14 for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.

Like you, I also believe that this is indeed the experience many posting in this and other forums have endured.

Another thing that I believe many find unbearable is the undermining of the Christian Temple by the son of destruction which is a result of an unrighteous deception perpetrated by Satan.

Try telling a Christian that his temple has been undermined and see what happens.

You will get an idea of just how difficult to bear that really is.

What should a Christian do if he finds out that his temple is undermined.

How does he get it back?

The prophecy in Daniel suggests that some people will prevail:

Daniel 11
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.
32 “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively.


How does a person following the Lamb no matter where he goes, act and prevail in such a circumstance?

In order to prevail they would be engaging in a battle against Satan and the ones he has misled into profaning the Christian Temple.

Is this the battle where some people do conquer?

Does Jesus Christ say anywhere that the people who follow him would enter into a battle?

Yes!

Revelation 17
“And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”


The faithful would follow Jesus Christ into battle against the wild beast and ten kings.

Understanding who we should be battling against and why we should be battling against them is a very large step a faithful Christian needs to take in order to follow Jesus Christ.

Is that difficult to bear?


In Christ

abe

Sorry my posts are so hard to understand, Susannah, believe me I do try to lay it out as plainly as possible and only add comment if I think it might clarify or round out a verse. What I added to veritas’ post is not meant to detract, but supports it.

Yes, the early disciples were for the most part unlettered and Jesus chose his words with care so that they would not get the wrong idea. Unfortunately this care is often times lost in translation and on occasion I like to bring this to the notice of the board.
My comment on Rev 14:4 was simply to show that these ones, 144k, who do not defile themselves with women and that keep following the lamb wherever he [goes] withdraws to, are ones who follow the lamb wherever he goes (withdraws to) even to the point of leaving their religion (figuratively being killed by them) if this is where he leads them; even as he had done in the first century, John 14: 4-6, so it is again in this time of the end.

I thank you for telling me you don’t understand my post, but if my comments annoy you, my advice is to not read them. I don’t always fully grasp what some posters say either, but that does not make what they have to say valueless, does it? It simply means I’m not on their wavelength, and it certainly does not give me the right to gag them. Can’t you see, dear Susannah, we all have different ways of expressing ourselves; we have different needs and different ways of understanding as is clearly shown by the plethora of religious sects each understanding and interpreting Jesus words differently.

With warm regard,
coccus ilicis

Thank you Jayme for your thoughts, I think Revelation 7 parallels very much the Exodus. Hence the point of the first born being bought by Jehovah out of all the tribes, and then being exchanged by purchase for the tribe of Levi. There were three groups that came out of Egypt. The general Israelites, the noted first born of the Israelites and the vast mixed company that had come out of the nations that joined themselves to the Israelites. So in Revelation there were four groups three of which are approved: The symbolic Israelites, the symbolic Gentiles, those chosen out of the symbolic Israelites, and those chosen out of the symbolic Gentiles ("all nations tribes peoples and tongues"). Only those who are symbolic Gentiles who do not come under Christ's rule are disapproved.

The symbolic Israelites are approved because the two tribes considered guilty of being the centre of idolatry for having the golden calves erected at Dan and Bethel (Dan and Ephraim) have been removed and replaced by Levi and Joseph, so that Joseph still retains his double portion.

Dear C.I. I enjoy your posts, such a change from WT meetings where I was continually trying to find some meat on the old bones they served up.
We all have different tastes and different dietary needs spiritually.

... but then that would make them literal Jews, and literal Gentiles :D

"...a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (7:4)

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues." (7:9)

"...these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb." (14:4)

Who were "first fruits" for God and the Lamb?

Here's where it all started:

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." (Mat 4:18,19)

The first fruits were the men who heard Jesus, and followed him... Jews.

Already in Paul's day there were MYRIADS... tens of thousands... of Jews who followed the Lord:

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads [Greek myrias] of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law." (Acts 21:20)

Besides, Jesus himself tells us who the 144,000 and "great crowd" are:

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev 7:14)

And when was this "great tribulation"?

"So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; // For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." (Mat 24:15-21)

So this event happened when the "desolating sacrilege" (the Roman armies with their idolatrous eagle ensigns as gods) stood in the holy place (Jerusalem). That's when "those who are in Judea" fled to the mountains. Christians fled to Pella in 66AD.

The 144,000 symbology is therefore explained to us BY JESUS. They are the literal JEWISH disciples of Jesus who came out of the great tribulation in 66AD. The other group are literal GENTILES who were Christian.

They cannot be "symbolic" Gentiles, because by definition, they wouldn't come out of the great tribulation! However, Christian Gentiles would... such as the Christians in Philadelphia:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (3:10, NASB)

Isn't it interesting how many translations miss out the "about to" [Greek "mello"] part? Yes, Jesus was going to spare the Philadelphian Christians from the "hour of testing" that was ABOUT TO come upon the whole world... as it did, between 66 and 70AD.

Remember, it is JESUS who opens the seven seals... nobody else. It is JESUS who interprets them... and did so in Mathew 24 and Luke 21.

Those Jewish Christians were firstfruits to God and the Lamb in every sense of the word.