Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Abe,
Thanks for your thoughts of what will happen to those who do not follow the lamb. I would just like to add one proviso to your summation. The word seismos, translated earthquake literally means severe shaking or turbulence. Its translation is at the translator’s discretion, e.g.

Matt 8:24 …and behold a great seismos (quaking/shaking/turbulence) took place on the sea… but he was sleeping

Rev 6:12, 13 ... even a great seismos (shaking etc) took place …as if by a great wind being seismenay (shaken etc)...

So what is this great shaking at the end? My guess is that it might be world-wide severe weather events because it goes on to describe the heavens being separated as a scroll being rolled... (Rev 6:14). The ends of a loosely rolled scroll look very similar to what we see on satellite pictures of a hurricane system. Also they (military commanders etc) …hid themselves in caves etc… (vs 15), which they would hardly do if they were sheltering from earthquakes.

I don’t rule out earthquakes, there is just enough doubt there to keep this in mind.

Love,
c.i.

Hello Interpretum,

It is interesting how different people read different thing into Scripture. I remember being puzzled in the door to door ministry when someone used Matt 10:28 to support their belief in the immortal soul doctrine and yet with a shift in focus it can be used for either argument.

Similarly in this case, you use the letters to the congregations to support your belief that
…And Jesus says of anyone who conquers (not just a small, exclusive "club")
Whereas when I read them I see only a tiny number (exclusive number, excluding those who don't conquer) conquering. Let me explain my reasoning.

First of all the word congregation literally means ‘called out ones’ or invited ones (so many are invited to be candidates). Jesus said …many are (called) invited but few chosen… Matt 22:14.

We see that the total number of called out ones (7 congregations) are represented by 7 lampstands Rev 1:20. This is confirmed in his letter to the congregation at Ephesus Rev 2:1 & 5 …and I will remove your lampstand from its place unless you repent…
By the time the two witnesses do their work Rev 11:4 only 2 lampstands of conquerors remain (using your words...a small exclusive club).

As you see the same scriptures are used to defend two opposing points of view. Who’s right and who’s wrong? Perhaps even both points of view are wrong, time will tell. The important thing is to hang in there, make adjustments in our focus as our understanding grows, and most important, not to become too attached to our own personal interpretation of events, otherwise we will end up in the same boat as organized religion.

Love,
c.i.

Thank you for this piece of insight.

Much of what gets written on this board is repetition, but it is necessary as there are many moving in and some moving out.

Congregation is ek-klesia the "out called".

The first resurrection is exclusive. The second resurrection is to catch as many as possible who slipped through the net.

vicky

Well, it's possible the "two lampstands" of Rev 11 are two of the 7 congregations. However, in the actual visions, there are two more recent congregations that emerged - the 144,000 and the great crowd, which are "before the throne of God" (7:15), and being shepherded by the "Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne" (7:17).

In Rev 7 we also see four winds held back from harming earth, sea and trees... and in Rev 9,10 we see earth, sea and trees harmed. In other words, in those chapters the four winds are unleashed.

Finally, in Rev 11 we see the survivors. The "two witnesses" are described as "standing before the Lord of the whole earth", just as the great crowd were, a few chapters ago.

So in terms of narrative sequence, I'd say the "two witnesses" are more likely to be the 144,000 and great crowd, because Rev 7 pictures who would survive "the great tribulation", Rev 8 & 9 pictures the great tribulation itself, and Rev 10 & 11 pictures the finale of it.

This is in harmony with Jesus' words, where the disciples awaited a sign (namely, Jerusalem being surrounded with armies) before they fled Judea and the great tribulation, and then it commenced to its climax of Jerusalem being destroyed.

So you ask who is right? I'd say Jesus is right. Rev 11 talks about the holy city being trampled, alluding to his own prophecy regarding Jerusalem: "...and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

I've said before that it's not about any private interpretation of scripture, because Jesus alone opens the seven seals, and only HE has the right to interpret them. I've given you just one example of how he does so... Rev 11:2 is a direct allusion to his prophecy recorded in Luke 21, where he makes clear he's talking about Jerusalem.

Also, it seems more likely that the whole of verse 4 is to be taken together... "These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth"... which would make it a direct reference to Zechariah 4 and Zerubbabel and Joshua, who were literally described as "the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth", and the two olive trees.

In other words, we were not meant to take "lampstands" by itself... but by the three different identities: "two lampstands", "two olive trees", "standing before the Lord of the earth".

The "two witnesses" of Rev 11 picture Joshua and Zerubbabel from Zechariah 4, but what were Zerubbabel and Joshua doing? Jehovah placed the government upon Zerubbabel, and the high priest upon Joshua after the Jews had returned from exile. In other words, they were restoring God's system of worship in Israel.

Many of Revelation's symbols are drawn from Zechariah, including the four horsemen (Rev 1, Zec 1), measuring the Temple (Rev 11, Zec 2), and the two olive trees... that's because Revelation 6-11 symbolizes the reversal of the fortunes of the Jews.

In Zechariah, God uses the four horsemen to inspect the nations who were at ease after Zion's calamity. He measures Jerusalem for protection, and he has two anointed ones rebuild the government and priesthood.

In Revelation, it is turned around: the four horsemen ride out, great tribulation is unleashed, the inner Temple only is measured while the holy city is cast out to the nations, and two witnesses preach in sackcloth.

So I'd say it's more likely the "two witnesses" are the ones who formed the BASIS of God's new kingdom back then... namely the 144,000 Jewish Christians who escaped the great tribulation that climaxed in 70AD, and the Gentile Christians.

Absolutely... I agree the first resurrection is exclusive. It is for Christian martyrs and those who didn't get the mark:

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev 20:4)

But nowhere here is this limited to a specific number. This was the WT error... that only the 144,000 (or the remaining ones) get resurrected here. This first resurrection is for all who were killed for Christ, and refuse the mark... clearly those who died after the mark is introduced.

However, the 144000 have already been gathered to heaven long before this. They were gathered out of the great tribulation (Rev 7), and were called to heaven in Rev 11, and are seen in heaven by Rev 14, as firstfruits. They were the first harvest of Jesus' work.

Interpretum,


So when was the "mark" introduced?









In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

Revelation does indeed have many symbols drawn from Zechariah.

Here is one which I think is significant:

Revelation 13:16
And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark


Zechariah 11:3
Listen! The howling of shepherds, for their majesty has been despoiled. Listen! The roaring of maned young lions, for the proud [thickets] along the Jordan have been despoiled.
4 “This is what Jehovah my God has said, ‘Shepherd the flock [meant] for the killing, 5 the buyers of which proceed to kill [them] although they are not held guilty. And those who are selling them say: “May Jehovah be blessed, while I shall gain riches.” And their own shepherds do not show any compassion upon them.’

Buying and selling!


I also think that Zechariah helps us to make parallels to Daniels wild beast which has ten horns just like the wild beast in Revelation:


Daniel 7:19
“Then it was that I desired to make certain concerning the fourth beast, which proved to be different from all the others, extraordinarily fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were of copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other [horn] that came up and before which three fell, even that horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking grandiose things and the appearance of which was bigger than that of its fellows.


I think the "other horn that came up" is mentioned in Zechariah:


Zechariah 11:16
For here I am letting a shepherd rise up in the land. To the [sheep] being effaced he will give no attention. The young one he will not seek, and the broken [sheep] he will not heal. The one stationing herself he will not supply [with food], and the flesh of the fat one he will eat, and the hoofs of the [sheep] he will tear off.


A lot of adjectives used here which are very similar to Daniels description of the wild beast!

Daniel also mentions that this small horn which grew causes the demise of three of the original ten horns; "before which three fell".


So does Zechariah describe a parallel event?

Yes!


Zechariah 11
And I finally effaced three shepherds in one lunar month, as my soul gradually became impatient with them, and also their own soul felt a loathing toward me.


Leaves a lot of questions to be answered.

Such as why are they being called shepherds?

In fact they are called "my shepherds":

Zechariah 11
Woe to my valueless shepherd, who is leaving the flock!

Could they actually be anointed ones in Jesus Christs own Kingdom?

It seems that Jehovah himself is content to allow these shepherds to continue operating in a very reprehensible manner:

2nd Thessalonians 2:11
So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


Zechariah also mentions a broken covenant:

Zechariah 11:10
So I took my staff Pleasantness and cut it to pieces, in order to break my covenant that I had concluded with all the peoples.

Could this be the same covenant that Daniel mentions?

Daniel 11
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].
“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.
32 “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.


In Christ

abe

I'm not able to watch your Youtubes right now.

Here are the NWT footnotes for "mark" at Revelation 13:17:

"Lit., "engraving." Gr., kha'rag.ma; J (Heb.), hat'taw, "the taw," the Heb. letter corresponding to the English letter "T." Compare Eze 9:4 ftn.

If we do that, and compare their Ezekiel 9:4 footnote (about the mark on the forehead), it says:

"Lit., "you must mark a mark." The Heb. word for the noun "mark" is taw, the last letter of the Heb. alphabet, which was anciently a cross mark (X). See Job 31:35 where taw is translated "signature"."

Only one kingdom in history had its name sum to 666 (namely LATEINOS, or the Latins), created an "image" of a former beast, forbade its citizens to trade without bearing its CROSS (X) mark, misled through signs and miracles (its saints could only be canonized if they had 2 miracles attributed to them), and compelled both rich AND poor, even kings quaking at its power.

I don't know exactly when the mark was introduced, but the mark symbolized the union of Church and State, and people were already required to be Christian in the Roman empire as early as the 4th century... but I think it was only after the invention of the "Holy" Roman Empire (the image of the beast) around 800AD that Church law dominated, and people could not buy and sell without bearing the mark.

During the so-called "Dark Ages", people may not have known any better... but with the advent of Protestantism and the publishing of the Bible out of Latin, people could again see the Church in its true light.

The history of Europe has been the history of the beast. Even Hitler attempted to form the Third Reich (to last for 1,000 years) ... that is, after the first (the Roman empire) and the second (the Holy Roman Empire). He even modeled the Nazi salute after the Roman one. The beast has been around for 2,000 years... only the players have changed.

I guess that "not feeding the sheep" brings it all back around to Matthew:

Matthew 24:45
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

When is the proper time?

Jesus Christ said we should keep on the watch.

If we are keeping on the watch then we are staying awake to "catch sight" of something.

“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains.


Is that the proper time?


Yes, I think Zechariah is a puzzle piece that helps make the picture more clear in regard to Revelation and many other scriptures.


In Christ

abe

I haven't entirely resolved Zechariah to my own satisfaction yet, but I'm becoming more convinced that at least SOME of it applied to the 1st century.

The main line of evidence is that Jesus and/or the gospel writers quoted it, in reference to an event in their day.

For example: "Then Jesus said to them: 'All of YOU will be stumbled in connection with me on this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered about." (Mat 26:31)

Jesus is quoting from Zechariah 13:7:

"'O sword, awake against my shepherd, even against the able-bodied man who is my associate,' is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. 'Strike the shepherd, and let those of the flock be scattered; and I shall certainly turn my hand back upon those who are insignificant.'"

So we must SERIOUSLY consider the possibility that Zechariah 13 was fulfilled in the 1st century. Indeed, if you read verses 4-6 it sounds very much like an allusion to crucifixion... perhaps a 1st century Christian's treatment by his own nation of Israel?

Also, we have yet another reference to these later chapters of Zechariah, in what Judas did:

"At that, Jehovah said to me: “Throw it to the treasury—the majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint.” Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of Jehovah." (Zech 11:13)

So if this verse was fulfilled in the 1st century upon Judas, we must SERIOUSLY consider the possibility that Jehovah broke those two staffs... Pleasantness and Union... in the 1st century.

Is there any evidence of this, I wonder? Do you think the renting of the curtain of the sanctuary in 33AD, or the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, might be a slight reflection of a breaking of something? :D

I do share your view that Zechariah is something of a puzzle... but I am not as dismissive of a 1st century fulfillment as you might be... considering that it's quoted AS A FULFILLMENT at least twice by Jesus and/or the gospel writers.

I would even suggest that the renting of the curtain sanctuary was a visible sign that Jehovah had cut the Pleasantness staff to pieces, "and it came to be broken in that day, and the afflicted ones of the flock who were watching me got to know in this way that it was the word of Jehovah." (11:11)

Let's face it, on the day Jesus died, even the pagan Roman officer said, "Certainly this was God's son".

I think many scriptures start to make a lot more sense when we stop trying to FORCE them into a context to which they don't belong. Given that Zech 11:12,13 was fulfilled in 33AD, surely the most logical thing is to see how the surrounding verses could also have been fulfilled around that time, as well.

Certainly it seems to me that Pleasantness and Union were broken by around 70AD.