Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Cheers everyone!:D

I want to say at the outset that I hope this research will be interactive among those who have been studying Daniel and its mysteries. Credit for this new thought must go to veritas re for his thread on the fourth beast. Something in the scripture he quoted gave us the clue we needed for the puzzle we’ve been working on, namely:

Why is the stump of the great tree in Daniel 4 banded with copper and iron?

Frankly, Vicky and I have been stumped (pun intended). I’ll give you an abbreviated rundown on our thoughts on the tree so far. Here are Daniel’s opening words:

“‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. 12 Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself." --Daniel 4:10-12

Now check out Jesus’ parable of the mustard grain at Matthew 13:31,32:

“Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens is like a mustard grain, which a man took and planted in his field; 32 which is, in fact, the tiniest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the largest of the vegetables and becomes a tree, so that the birds of heaven come and find lodging among its branches.” -- Matthew 13:31-32

This is the first big morph. What Jesus planted was pure faith -- a mustard seed. What eventually resulted was a tree whose description is surprisingly like the tree in Daniel’s prophesy. This gives meaning to Jesus’ question:

“. . .when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?” -- Luke 18:8

What scriptural evidence do we have that such a morph takes place? Listen to the parable that immediately follows the one about the mustard grain that became a tree:

“Another illustration he spoke to them: “The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three large measures of flour, until the whole mass was fermented.”” -- Matthew 13:33

What is there about leaven that we should pay attention to?

“YOU were running well. Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? 8 This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU. 9 A little leaven ferments the whole lump." -- Galatians 5:7-9

“YOUR [cause for] boasting is not fine. Do YOU not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? 7 Clear away the old leaven, that YOU may be a new lump, according as YOU are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed. 8 Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth.” -- 1 Corinthians 5:6-8

“Jesus said to them: “Keep YOUR eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 So they began to reason among themselves, saying: “We did not take any loaves along.” 8 Knowing this, Jesus said: “Why are YOU doing this reasoning among yourselves, because YOU have no loaves, YOU with little faith? 9 Do YOU not yet see the point, or do YOU not remember the five loaves in the case of the five thousand and how many baskets YOU took up? 10 Or the seven loaves in the case of the four thousand and how many provision baskets YOU took up? 11 How is it YOU do not discern that I did not talk to YOU about loaves? But watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they grasped that he said to watch out, not for the leaven of the loaves, but for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” -- Matthew 16:6-12

We comment here that the bread Jesus provided was a genuine multiplication of food. Leaven never increases the actual weight of the bread. (sort of like a balloon) By substituting the commands of men for genuine doctrine of God the Pharisees provided hot air. .(hehe):P

“In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines." -- Matthew 15:3-9

Is there there any scripture that describes a gradual change from one thing to another? Actually, there are two:

“Why is it that I hoped for it to produce grapes, but it gradually produced wild grapes?” -- Isaiah 5:4

“And as for me, I had planted you as a choice red vine, all of it a true seed. So how have you been changed toward me into the degenerate [shoots] of a foreign vine?” -- Jeremiah 2:21

(to be continued)

Back to Daniel’s tree:

“‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of the heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth. 16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”” -- Daniel 4:13-17

King Neb heard these words in his vision: “Leave its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and copper….” That’s the part that got us stumped.

We pretty much figured out the rootstock part from Isaiah 6:13.

“And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.” -- Isaiah 6:13

As John the baptist said:

“Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.” -- Matthew 3:10

Back to those bands: Why iron and copper? Do the bands prevent the tree from growing? How?

Now we come to the second great morph. This one involves the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7.

““Then it was that I desired to make certain concerning the fourth beast, which proved to be different from all the others, extraordinarily fearsome, the teeth of which were of iron and the claws of which were of copper, which was devouring [and] crushing, and which was treading down even what was left with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other [horn] that came up and before which three fell, even that horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking grandiose things and the appearance of which was bigger than that of its fellows. 21 “I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” -- Daniel 7:19-22

Hmmmmm……its teeth were of iron and the claws were of copper. Anyone see a resemblance between the metals of the teeth and claws and the metal bands on the stump?

Also take note of what verse 25 says that the fourth beast will do.

“. . .and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One.” -- Daniel 7:25

It’s no wonder that the stump cannot grow again with those iron and copper bands encircling it. Iron teeth and copper claws picture the formidable weapons that the beast will use on God’s holy people.

Wait a minute, you remind me, you haven’t really said anything about the morphing of the fourth beast. Well, I suggest that you take a close look at veritas re’s thread.

I’ll give you my thoughts on it, briefly..(ha-ha):D

The first beast, which represented Babylon was conquered by Medo-Persia, the second beast. Medo-Persia, in turn, was conquered by Greece, the third beast. Greece was conquered by Rome -- the starting position of the fourth beast. So far, all nice clean lines of demarcation.

Then -- Rome split east and west and the west morphed into the holy Roman empire which was comprised of a group of kingdoms. Great Britain grew out of this composite group but not by direct conquest. It started as a colony of Rome.

Great Britain lost part of her empire when the 13 colonies split off and became the beginning of the United States of America.

To illustrate this morphing of Rome, think of the great metal image in Daniel 2:31-35:

“You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was dreadful. 32 As regards that image, its head was of good gold, its breasts and its arms were of silver, its belly and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of molded clay. 34 You kept on looking until a stone was cut out not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of molded clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the molded clay, the copper, the silver and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that no trace at all was found of them. And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth....

“You, O king, the king of kings, you to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, and the strength and the dignity, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever the sons of mankind are dwelling, the[b] beasts of the field and the winged creatures of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them, you yourself are the head of gold[/b]. 39 “And after you there will rise another kingdom inferior to you; and another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth. 40 “And as for the fourth kingdom, it will prove to be strong like iron. Forasmuch as iron is crushing and grinding everything else, so, like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter even all these. 41 “And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42 And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.” -- Daniel 2:37-43

The iron legs are Rome and the feet and toes, mixed with clay picture the morphing to the state in which the Anglo-American world power now finds itself. This may also include the European Union. (still working on this)

So, this morphed beast comes against the morphed tree and cuts it down. This is where we believe the two witnesses of Revelation 11 start to prophesy in sackcloth.

….but that’s a whole ‘nuther subject….

Love, Rez:giverose:

The tenth is something good, the tithe for Jehovah.
So after all the severe pruning of this tree, something good will survive.
This I think also ties in with the tenth of the city in Revelation 11 that is split off during the seismos, that shaking up.

......until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” --
Daniel 7:19-22

Sounds like an end times prophecy.

Still wondering about why the choice of metals.

Teeth of iron... no give or take there, straight for the kill.

Claws of copper..... yes some apparent leaway, but most predators shed their claws and grow fresh sharp ones underneath or just generally their claws keep growing and are flexible.
A cat clawing a tree is sharpening its claws. It loses the old ones and the fresh new ones are exposed.

..............

Now refering to that mustard seed, Jesus said;
Matt.17:20 - If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. KJ

But the mustard seed in Jesus' parable grows into a monstrous hybrid. It is no longer a small humble brassica bush but an enormous tree. Similarly the three Seah measures of flour are contaminated with leaven, whereas this is the same measure of flour Sarah used to feed angels without leaven.

There is no substance here just a showy display.

Just a'pickin' away at this ... trying to figure it out some more....

I'm thinking that King Neb is a figure for our time. In his arrogance he gets cut down like a big tree. This happens right after he says:

"Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?” -- Daniel 4:30

This makes me think that it's quite possible that Babylon the Great in Revelation is strictly a man-made institution. It too falls in its arrogance.

"To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong." -- Revelation 18:7-8

I just came across this scripture in Job 36:4-12

"For my words are for a fact no falsehood; The One perfect in knowledge is with you. Look! God is mighty and will not reject; [He is] mighty in power of heart; He will not preserve anyone wicked alive, But the judgment of the afflicted ones he will give. He will not take away his eyes from anyone righteous; Even kings on the throne— He will also seat them forever, and they will be exalted. And if they are bound in fetters, They are captured with ropes of affliction. Then he will tell them about the way they act And their transgressions, because they take a superior air. And he will uncover their ear to exhortation, And he will say that they should turn back from what is hurtful. If they obey and serve, They will finish their days in what is good And their years in pleasantness. But if they do not obey, they will pass away even by a missile, And they will expire without knowledge.

Still not clear as to which entity exactly matches "Babylon the Great". I'm a'thinkin' that the clues lie here in Daniel 4. The WT has defined it as "The world empire of false religion" which (of course) doesn't include themselves.

Whatever it is, seems to definitely be man-made, and which would have Jehovah's people imprisoned within it. Thus:

"Get out of her my people!"

In Daniel 4, King Neb does finally get the point that the heavens are ruling. Does this mean that Jehovah's people also get the point and so flee God's wrath by abandoning man-made religion?

If the Daniel tree is a figure of Revelation's B the G then it would seem that their efforts at spiritual growth while in it, would be seriously hampered. Fettered is how the scripture in Job puts it.

Their eventual good outcome would come as a result of seeing their situation as it really is and taking the appropriate action.

Love, Rez:huh:

PS....does anyone see the fall of the city of Jerusalem in the first century as a fulfillment of Daniel 4 and a preview of what will happen to Christendom in the end times? I'd love to know what others think.:whistle:

Hi Peeps!
Very interesting! But you may be reading too much into the use of the Iron and Copper bands. The purpose of them was to keep the stump from growing. Thats where the Copper come in . It is a natural herbicide and any thing growing will shrink back from it. Copper oxide is poison! The Iron was used to hold the soft Copper in place, so nobody could remove it.
Now maybe you can find the metaphoric meaning of these metals. :)

Yeah, e-m, as I remember the one way of stealthily destroying an unwanted tree (illegally of course), simply hammer copper nails through its bark (and sap lines) around the circumference of its trunk. If done right the tree wouldn't last the year.

Hi ya everyone :hibye: Who cut down the tree? :dontknow::read::grouphug: Lowlee

Yup, emagine, you got the agricultural part. The purpose of the bands of copper and iron were to keep the stump from growing. So here's what I see happening in the illustration:

1. Tree gets big (“Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?” --Daniel 4:30)

2. Tree gets cut down and stripped (King Neb gets knocked off his throne and stripped of his dignity)

3. Stump is banded with copper and iron to stop it from growing (King Neb gets to live as a beast for seven years)

4. Bands are removed (?) (King Neb becomes aware that the heavens are ruling - not him)

5. Tree starts to grow again (?) (King Neb is restored to his kindom)

If this is an end-time prophesy, this is how it may be fulfilled:

1. Tree gets big (man-made religion becomes arrogant and dismisses God)

2. Tree gets cut down and stripped (“She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird!" -- Revelation 18:2;17:16;18:16)

3. Stump is banded with copper and iron to stop it from growing (the forth beast with the teeth of iron and the claws of copper “... will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One.” -- Daniel 7:25. I see the holy ones as the stump who cannot grow or fulfill their kingdom mandate while the beast is after them.)

4. Bands are removed ("And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur." -- Revelation 19:20 "... I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire." -- Daniel 7:11)

5. Tree starts to grow again (“‘As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth. But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’" -- Daniel 7:17-18)

....far as I got for now:blush:

Love, Rez:siskiss:

Hi there, sister Lowlee.:cheekkiss:

I guess it's the same One who causes the fall of Babylon the Great.

Rez:siskiss:

Hello again, sis Lowlee:P

Your question must have lodged deep in my mind. Because in the middle of the night it struck me. Your query could include: HOW was the tree cut down?

In the first instance, the tree represented King Neb's pride in what he had built. It was cut down by God's taking away his sanity for seven years.

How do you think that might play out in the end times?:whistle:

Love, Rez:siskiss:

Hiya Rez, :hibye: I found this, :read:`I was looking, in the visions of my head on my bed, and lo, a sifter, even a holy one, from the heavens is coming down. Daniel 4:13 Is a sifter good or bad? :dontknow: Sister LOWlee

I look at your attempts to understand the prophecy
and say
when you will believe and accept the way God is interpreting his own prophecies
then you will understand

Daniel 2
28 but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets,
( and he hath made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar )
what shall be in the latter days

rus v.

Hello Bro Rus,

I believe this scripture and the one in Daniel 4 is all to do with God's Kingdom in the last days.

Daniel 4
20 “‘The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong and the height of which finally reached the heavens and which was visible to all the earth,


This is similar to Revelation:

Revelation 13
6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

Both the tree and the wild beast reach the heavens and give themselves glory just as Nebuchadnezzar did. By doing this they rob God of what rightfully belongs to him.


Can this be applied to any manifestation of God's Kingdom today?

I believe it can.

Consider this from the June 1st 1985 Watchtower Magazine on page 30:

"On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

"do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit directed organization?"


Notice that a vow is made to "God's Spirit Directed Organization".

Do these vows reach up to heaven?

If a persons baptismal vows don't reach up to heaven before God then of what value are they?

How high did the tree get?

Daniel 4
the height of which finally reached the heavens


So I believe the height of the tree "finally reached the heavens" on June 1st 1985 when the baptismal vows changed.

So is the Watchtower Society glorifying themselves instead of God just like Nebuchadrezzar?


Consider what they said (bolded) in the January 15th 1989 Watchtower Magazine on page 15:

"Baptismal candidates must acknowledge publicly that on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice they have repented of their sins and have dedicated themselves to Jehovah. They must also understand that dedication and baptism identify them as Jehovah's Witnesses."
“The entire baptismal arrangement, including this public expression of faith, is essential for salvation.”


Essential for salvation?

The Watchtower Society insists that a vow made to "God's Spirit Directed Organization" is essential for salvation.

God's Spirit Directed Organization is themselves!

They have built a city containing over 6 million people and have vows which reach right up to heaven in order to obtain veneration for their own celebrated name; "God's Spirit Directed Organization".

They might as well be saying the same thing as Nebuchadrezzar:

Daniel 4
30 The king was answering and saying: “Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?”

Could this presumptuos change in baptismal vows be when the stump was banded?

The Watchtower Society has successfully acheived what men in ancient times also wanted to do:

Genesis 4
4 They now said: “Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth.”


They have a greater acheivement than these ancient men.

They really have built Babylon the Great during the final part of the days.


There are some righteous ones right now who have gone out from this great city and are now living in the wilderness learning a very hard but valuable lesson just like Nebuchadrezzar:

Revelation 12
14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place;

They are eagerly searching for the Holy Way.

Daniel 4
36 “At the same time my understanding itself began to return to me, and for the dignity of my kingdom my majesty and my brightness themselves began to return to me; and for me even my high royal officers and my grandees began eagerly searching, and I was reestablished upon my own kingdom, and greatness extraordinary was added to me.

I also believe that many of those people are participating on this forum and other Internet venues.

That is how I see the tree dream being fulfilled in the latter days.

It is interesting to see what other people believe.


In Christ

abe

I understand that a lot of people would object to this statement, especially a Jehovah's Witness.

Here is page 109 of the "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom" book where the Governing Body explain what "God's Spirit Directed Organization" really is:





a number of brothers ----------> Men!


In reading this chapter on the Jehovah's Witness Organization I was unable to find any mention of Holy Spirit being a part.

Can you?


In Christ

abe

Hey Abe:hibye:

I think the following quotes from your first post are good thoughts to consider.

I'm not sure that the tree represents the WT alone. It seems more likely to include the whole "corporate" Christian church. By corporate, I mean man-made structures that resemble the Jewish system of Jesus' day.

When the religious leaders responded to Pilate: "We have no king but Caesar" they were betraying the fact that they no longer were being led by God.

I agree that the WT sins have massed together up to heaven. And I also think that the RC church has also such a status. No doubt there are other churches in the same category.

Do they all fall at once, the victim of their own corporate insanity?

If you believe that God's people exclusively are found in or out of the WT then it makes sense that you believe that the insanity has begun with the changes in the baptismal questions. I'm not at all sure that this is the case.

At any rate, thanks for adding some good thoughts to this thread. It's a huge puzzle, isn't it.:P

The stump itself is interesting. Please have another look at Vicky's #3 post. Let me know what you think.

Love,
Rez:siskiss: