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I hate dual fulfillments, but I found the following article by Chuck Missler to be very interesting:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/276/print/

Basically, "seven times" is 360 x 7 = 2,520 days. But if you apply the same "day for a year" rule that is implicitly used in chapter 9, then you get 2,520 years... which at 360 days a year is 907,200 days.

He explains the maths and dating in more detail, but if the Jews were released on July 23rd, 537BC (or got home)... then counting forward in time 907,200 days comes to May 14th, 1948AD... the day Israel was re-established. (This, he says, is counting from "the servitude of the nations" 70 x 360 days earlier.)

Measuring from the desolations of Jerusalem... commencing 587BC, we come to August 18, 518BC (probably when Zechariah was commission to lay the foundations of the Temple... although Chuck Missler says completion of the wall)... 907,200 days forward brings us to June 7, 1967AD... the Six Day War, when Jerusalem was restored to the kingdom of Israel.

Of course, you need to read his article to get the full sense of why there are two dates... I think the WTS confuse the "servitude of the nations" and the "desolations of Jerusalem" and lump it into one 70 year period... when scripture indicates there are two overlapping 70 year periods... one serving the king of Babylon (between around 609 to 607 and ending around 539 or 537BC), and one ending 20 years later, starting when Jerusalem was actually desolated (around 587 and ending 70 or so years later, around 518 or 517... the 70 years that Zechariah mentions, some 20 years after they'd been back in their homeland.)

Bottom line... if there is a dual meaning of the tree being banded, I think it's a cryptic prophecy about Israel's fall and the timing of Israel's eventual restoration... which happened last century.

Now THAT'S a God of prophecy! :D

Hi Rez,

Yes, it is a huge puzzle which I truly believe is starting to fall together.

I also think that it will only fall together if each member of the body of Christ contributes their share. We are all given just a few silver talents each and must invest them if we expect to be blessed in any way.

Forums such as this one are perfectly suited for such a purpose.

I think "the earth really has come to the womans help". (Rev 12)

The doubts that you raise in the post above are very reasonable.

I have had the same doubts.

Here is the explanation of what I am presently thinking:

In Daniel Chapter 8 their are four wild beasts. I think I have already posted somewhere else on this forum my personal convictions regarding who these beasts represent.

The evolution of Christianity (churches) since Jesus Christ.

I also think the wild beasts and horns in Daniel Chapter 7 represent the same evolution described in different ways however, there are some things in CH 7 which I still cannot reconcile.

In both chapters the last is the fearsome one. The Watchtower Society. The modern manifestation of the Kingdom in the last days.

The other wild beasts are still alive during the last days.

Catholic (Roman and Orthodox), Protestant (reformed into 4 main categories).

If the judgement is to start with the house of Israel, from the sanctuary first (profaned temple) then the last fearsome manifestation is to be dealt with first. The Watchtower Society.

So what happens to the Catholics and Protestants?

I think Daniel 7 answers the question.

Daniel 7:11
I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. 12 But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season.



and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire.

Compare to:

Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. ---- (given to the burning fire)

When Jesus Christ sends forth his angels I think the Watchtower Society will be the first to go!

They have profaned the temple. (removed the "constant feature" - Daniel Ch8)

2 Thessalonians 2
8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. ---(its body was destroyed)

The judgement starts at the sanctuary (temple).


Ezekiel 9
“Pass through the city after him and strike. Let not your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. 6 Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women YOU should kill off—to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near, and from my sanctuary YOU should start.”


In Christ

abe

Hello man hu,

I think the earthquake in Revelation 11 and the earthquake in Revelation 16 are one and the same earthquake.

Problem is in Revelation 16 the city is split into thirds.

Makes the puzzle even more difficult!

The only place I can find where a city is split into thirds is in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 5
1 “And as for you, O son of man, take for yourself a sharp sword. As a barbers’ razor you will take it for yourself, and you must make it pass along upon your head and upon your beard, and you must take for yourself weighing scales and divide [the hair] in portions. 2 A third you will burn in the very fire in the midst of the city as soon as the days of the siege have come to the full. And you must take another third. You will strike [it] with the sword all around her, and the [last] third you will scatter to the wind, and I shall draw out a sword itself after them.
3 “And you must take therefrom a few in number and wrap them up in your skirts. --- (could this be the "Holy Seed" will be the stump of it?)


In regard to the 4th beast with the iron teeth I find many parallels in these two scriptures, please compare:

Daniel 7
7 “After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.

and

Micah 3
1 And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot. 4 At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings. 5 “This is what Jehovah has said against the prophets that are causing my people to wander, that are biting with their teeth and that actually call out, ‘Peace!’ that, when anyone does not put [something] into their mouths, also actually sanctify war against him,

It is hard to deny that what Micah is describing above is a very fearsome and terrible situation!

Notice however, that it is "the commanders of Israel" who are being addressed.

This is another reason why I think the wild beasts are manifestations of Christianity.

What do you think about this?

In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

Thats very profound!

According to Acts Ch15 the foundation was layed again.

How do you feel about triple fulfillments?

If the foundation was layed by Jesus Christ how does the same math work?

Have you tried it?


In Christ

abe

Hi abe

Well, there might be some connection with what you're talkiing about... but I imagine you'd have to count backwards.

What happens if we count 2,520 years backwards from 33AD? In ordinary years we get to 2488BC... but I don't know the exact year if we're using 360 day years. Based on Chuck's calculations, it seems to be equivalent to about 2,484 years... which would take us from 33AD back to 2452BC, which seems to be within about 100 (or 120 years maybe?) prior to the Flood...

I personally suspect that 2,520 is a SLIDING SCALE... in other words, if we analyze events starting with Nebuchadnezzar's rise and dominance over the nations (from about 609BC) to Jerusalem's fall in 587BC... and beyond its restoration, (537BC, 518BC etc)... we will see equivalent matching events in our day!

Put it like this... if 518BC corresponds with 1967AD, then 485AD corresponds with 2010AD. I'm not saying anything significant happened in 485BC... but I suspect if we can get a more accurate grip on those ancient dates, they may explain what's going on with the corresponding modern dates on the 2520 scale.

Yes, backwards from Jesus may also correspond to pre-Flood events! I suspect Jesus' death and resurrection (33AD) corresponded with a new creation, as it were.

Interpretum,

I am not a very good historian however, I discern that another calculation might be available for "the going forth of the word to rebuild".

For example, when was the going forth of the word mentioned in Acts 15?

Acts 15
14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again,


The scripture being quoted in this scripture comes from Amos Chapter 9

Amos 9
11 “‘In that day I shall raise up the booth of David that is fallen, and I shall certainly repair their breaches. And its ruins I shall raise up, and I shall certainly build it up as in the days of long ago, 12 to the end that they may take possession of what is left remaining of E´dom, and all the nations upon whom my name has been called,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, who is doing this.


So is this going forth of the word to rebuild Jerusalem a milestone date from which to retry all the calculations?

When did Amos say this?

The only thing I can see that might indicate a milestone date is right at the start of the book of Amos however, I may have missed something:


Amos 1
1 The words of A´mos, who happened to be among the sheep raisers from Te·ko´a, which he visioned concerning Israel in the days of Uz·zi´ah the king of Judah and in the days of Jer·o·bo´am the son of Jo´ash, the king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.


Amos is quoting JEHOVAH directly!

In my opinion that carries much greater weight than some Babylonian or Persian King announcing that Jerusalem will be rebuilt.

What I am trying to communicate is that there really might be another way to do all the calculations that completely departs from popular opinion.

That is something I am reasonably good at (unpopular opinions)

History is something I am not very good at.


Jehovah also said this right before saying that Jerusalem would be rebuilt:

Amos 9
10 By the sword they will die—all the sinners of my people, those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’ 11 “‘In that day I shall raise up the booth of David that is fallen


Does that sound like the "straits of the times" to you?


and what about this:

those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’

Is there any organized Christian religion on the earth today who have had the presumption to say anything that resembles; "The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’ ?


I can think of one!


In Christ

abe

man hu,

It does sound like an end time prophecy!

In regard to your discernment above the prophetic statement made by Zechariah fits in nicely also:

Zechariah 14
And YOU will have to flee, just as YOU fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uz·zi´ah the king of Judah. And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him.


How big will this earthquake be?

I think Revelation 16 answers the question:

Revelation 16
18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake occurred such as had not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great. 19 And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell;

and the cities of the nations fell

If all the cities of the nations are to fall in this earthquake then it will effect the entire earth!

That's a big earthquake.

Notice in Zechariah it says; "you will have to flee".

I think that might tie in with what Jesus Christ said:

Luke 17
34 I tell YOU, In that night two [men] will be in one bed; the one will be taken along, but the other will be abandoned. 35 There will be two [women] grinding at the same mill; the one will be taken along, but the other will be abandoned.”

Are these people fleeing?

Immediately before the earthquake?

I think Ezekiel might also be referring to the same event:

Ezekiel 38
18 “‘And it must occur in that day, in the day when Gog comes in upon the soil of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘that my rage will come up into my nose. 19 And in my ardor, in the fire of my fury, I shall have to speak. Surely in that day a great quaking will occur in the soil of Israel. 20 And because of me the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the wild beasts of the field and all the creeping things that are creeping on the ground and all mankind that are upon the surface of the ground will be bound to shiver, and the mountains will actually be thrown down and the steep ways will have to fall, and to the earth even every wall will fall.’

and to the earth even every wall will fall: Ezekiel 38

and the cities of the nations fell: Revelation 16

all mankind that are upon the surface of the ground: Ezekiel 38

For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth: Luke 21

The sun and moon will also be darkened (an eclipse?)

Apparently there was an eclipse during the earthquake of Uzziah's time also.

There is an interesting article which examines the ancient earthquake here:

http://biblefocus.net/consider/v21uzziah/index.html

I think this great earthquake will play a very important role during the end times.


And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him.


This is why I think the earthquake in Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 are one and the same earthquake:

Please compare:


Revelation 11:19
19 And the temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple [sanctuary]. And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.

Revelation 16:18
And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake


I think it would be a very good idea to understand when the next full eclipses will occur.

Does anyone know?

It would be interesting to find future eclipses that fall on or close to the passover/easter.

After all, it is the blood of the lamb by which we might be saved. (passed over)

I often wonder if we celebrate the memorial for a future event more than for a past event.


In Christ

abe

Yes it does... but it was a prophecy on the "house of Jacob" and the "house of Israel".

The "booth of David that is fallen" is not the Temple... because David never built the Temple... but I view it as another way of saying the house of David.

The Babylonian exile ended the line of kings from David... but God foretold that he would raise it up. This he did in Jesus Christ... which is why it was quoted in Acts 15.

Jesus Christ embodies the raising up of the "booth of David that is fallen".

All of this was fulfilled within the 70 x 7 years of Daniel 9, that ended in 73AD.

On the other hand, Amos 9:14,15 foretells a regathering of Israel again... which may have been foretelling their restoration from Babylon, or their restoration in our modern day.

Well, yes... the Catholics :D

I'm sure the Catholic Church says in its heart: "‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning."

But religion picking aside, Amos was about the houses of Israel and Jacob, and about the restoration of the "booth of David", which would come in the form of Jesus Christ.

Interpretum,

How about this:

The Live Men of Faith Who Will Never Die!

Amos 9
10 By the sword they will die—all the sinners of my people, those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’


In Christ

abe