Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

I'm posting this because some on this forum still believe the doctrine of the WTS that there are literally 144,000 anointed ones, who have been selected by God from the 1st century until now.

In this post, I would like to show that this particular doctrine is unscriptural - plain and simple.

First off, I would like to start with Paul's description of the contrast between the old mountain where Moses received the Law, and the new Mount Zion (I have bolded the obvious similarities):

"But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s [blood]." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

This passage is remarkably similar to John's vision, in Revelation 14:

"And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." (Revelation 14:1-3)

Clearly these passages are essentially describing the same things. The 144,000 are earlier listed in the manner of a census, so Paul's way of describing them is very appropriate... they have been "enrolled in the heavens".

However, Paul also describes them as "the congregation of the firstborn". The Revelation account continues: "These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (Rev 14:4)


Problem #1 - Firstfruits Come FIRST

Now, here is problem #1 with the WTS interpretation. In what way are these firstfruits if, in fact, they have been collected over a long period of time... some 2,000 years from the 1st century to today?

This contradicts the definition of "firstfruits", which was a term used from the Law to describe the FIRST FRUITS that the land produced... not a portion over an extended period of time.

This is precisely the way Paul uses the word, in describing Jesus' resurrection:

"However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]." (1 Cor 15:20)

Christ was literally the first person to have been resurrected to eternal life.

This is also the way the word is used elsewhere by Paul. For example, he describes Epaenetus as "a firstfruits of Asia for Christ." (Romans 16:5) This makes sense if Epaenetus was one of the FIRST people to come to Christ in Asia.

Note also the apostle James' use of the word:

"Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1:18)

Interestingly, James is writing to "the twelve tribes in the Dispersion" (James 1:18, ESV). (The Greek word used by James for Dispersion is diaspora, used by Jews to describe their Jewish brothers mixed among the Gentiles.) Unfortunately, we lose this sense in the NWT, which just says "that are scattered about".

A second fact about James is that he was the head of the congregation in Jerusalem. With the circumcision controversy in Acts 15, they go up to Jerusalem, and it is James that clinches it, and provides the wording for the decision that is sent out.

Third, the book of James is pretty unique in using the word "synagogue" for a gathering of brothers: "For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing..." (James 2:2). Again, the NWT disguises this by using the phrase "a gathering of you", but the Greek word is synagōgē, which means synagogue, a distinctly Jewish building.

So a strong case can be made that James is writing to the Jewish Christians in the Jewish Diaspora, as head of the Jerusalem congregation. (This may give us an important clue as to who the "firstfruits" actually are.)


Problem #2 - When Do The 144,000 Appear?

The second problem applies to WHEN these appear. The WTS applies Revelation to commencing since 1914, with the four horsemen representing the signs of the "last days" since 1914.

But then, if Revelation 6 is meant to apply to 1914 onwards, why on earth would Revelation 7 dart BACK to the 1st century, when the WTS claim these 144,000 first emerged?

They get round this by saying all of these 144,000 who were dead are resurrected around 1914-1918, and are now in heaven, with only about 10,000 or so left today.

However, their interpretation is full of holes, for several reasons:

(1) the 144,000 are sealed all at the same tme.

"I heard the number of those who were sealed". (Rev 7:4) Each member of the 144,000 is sealed by definition! There is no indication that this body get sealed gradually, over a few thousand years.

(2) No harm comes to the earth UNTIL they have been sealed.

The angel says: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."

And yet, in chapter 8, the first trumpet results in " a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees was burned up".

Clearly then, the 144,000 MUST have already been sealed by chapter 8!

Yet JWs apply most of this chapter to themselves and their ministry (i.e. the stinging scorpions are them and their literature!)

Because of these obvious problems, some therefore say that Revelation hasn't yet commenced at all, and that the 144,000 is some FUTURE group who will be selected by God.

But again, the problem here is that this supposed future group can in no way be called FIRSTFRUITS! This contradicts the meaning of the word.

...

So the KEY to interpreting who the 144,000 is the word FIRSTFRUITS.

This is a Jewish phrase, enshired in their Law, representing the FIRST fruits produced... hence the name!

Christ himself was the firstfruits from the dead, and the firstfruits of those who followed Christ were ALL JEWISH.

The apostles were all Jews, and for the first several years, his disciples were all Jewish, or were converts to Judaism.

So I think all the lines of evidence point to the fact that these 144,000 were the Jewish Christians of the 1st century...

(1) Firstfruits means FIRST FRUITS... and the Jewish Christians were the first fruits of Christ's ministry.

(2) James was the head of the Jerusalem congregation, his book is distinctly Jewish, and writing to the Jewish Diaspora (fleshly Jews among the Gentiles), he is talking to his Jewish Christian brothers as "us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures". (James 1:18)

(3) Most Christian groups recognize that the "little flock" and "other sheep" comments by Jesus are not a reference to two different classes, but simply to his disciples (for the "little flock"), and to the Gentiles (as the "other sheep").

(4) The 144,000 come out of "every tribe of the sons of Israel". We are actually TOLD they come out of Israel... and it is contrasted with the "great crowd" that come out of "all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues".

Yes, I am fully aware of the scriptures that talk about "the Israel of God", the whole Hagar/mountain drama, and so on... but Paul does not contradict himself... he also realized the Jews were the chosen ones, and that a remnant of Jews would survive their impending desolation.

The 144,000 was the remnant that would survive their national desolation, which could not commence until they had been sealed... which happened when the Jewish Christians fled Judea in 66AD.

CONCLUSION:

If you think the 144,000 have been gathered over the last 2,000 years (as the WTS teaches), then they are not FIRST fruits.

The same applies if you think they are going to emerge as a group in the future. They also cannot be FIRST fruits, except by some twisted leaps of logic.

It must, of necessity, refer to people who are brought to Christ FIRST... which were the Jewish Christians of the 1st century, including Peter, Paul and the apostles.

Dear Interpretum:hibye:,

I'm afraid that this is similar to a trinity argument.

Both sides can be argued, debated and scriptures used.

And we can believe what we heartfully believe with our fullest personal comprehension.

I am just on the thought that it could be filled and the last can become first. So I settle on a mixed thought and mind my p's and q's in life. God will reveal it sometime.:friends:

I appreciate you sharing your perception, as always.:thumbsup:

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Dear Anja:love:,

You may be surprised that feeling as the special elite 144,000 are chosen at the end could be a trap of itself? Especially if one has any holy spirit interaction and has been told they have been chosen?
Would it not be better to take on the adoption of letting the Father do his work and be happy and mindful of our blessings from having that spirit adoption? I don't trust ANY thing from "the spirit" because there are demons and missals coming from the bad side, too. Even though I hear "tones" of the song playing melody on my heart, doesn't mean I have a choosing of first class. I don't know and have come to the conclusion that it would be a stumbling block to others or myself to be self assuming. Besides, I really don't deserve anything, so I'm happy to know that I am loved from heaven above and that's good enough for me.:thumbsup:

We're in this together whether the 144,000 have been chosen or will be chosen:friends:

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Yes, Anja:love:

The holy spirit works to intercede bad spirits and demonic attacks. But, remember that sometimes bad spirit is allowed to work out its own purpose. I've had enough attacks and misleading people leading the way to another "trap".

Fear is not a driving force for me. I have finally been blessed with peace. However long it lasts will be for its own purpose, too. We are all being refined by the potter and none of us should assume to be standing, lest we fall.

Being prayerful and "listening" are wise choices. I shouldn't make it seem that I don't not feel "touched" with blessed love from our Father. The scriptures that say the story about which slave was love more? The one forgiven a 100,000 money debt or one forgiven a 10,000 money debt.

Please understand that I have holy grace carrying across some rough waters. But, you see.... I'm rather cautious because we tend to get a little over zealous and before you know it...we are blind, again. Its the whispers of misleading inspired words that irk me the most. Your interpretation doesn't whisper. sweetie. Its just how you see it and the light shines on your face for it.

I'll just keep my little squatter's rights on this earth, right now, and be prepared for any kind of disruption in peace. It doesn't take much to get "hammered" over the head with a life crisis. And I'll keep what light I have shining in my hut:heartbeat:

My love and heart to you and yours, we all need as much love as we can get (and prayers, too). I love those prayers:D

I know it may be hard for anyone to believe...but I had this same vision... I am telling you the truth. I had this vision in 2008. I was caught up to the thrown of God, and was standing at Christ's side. I saw a great crowd all standing in white robes, and they were this new church, the virgin bride of God, the firstfruits. I heard the most beautiful angelical music playing, and I heard the peoples singing this song so loud I had goosebumps. I also stood on Mount Zion, and received my new name, and had it written on the white stone by the hand of the Father, who also spoke outloud to me, in Hebrew, and also English. This my true and faithful testimony, as I have said once before, I shall say it again. If anyone else has this testimony, now is the time to come forward, and also tell of it, so that others may believe and have faith, in the rising of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and how soon this really is.

This passage is remarkably similar to John's vision, in Revelation 14:

"And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." (Revelation 14:1-3)

It is now time for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There will be a total and full redemption through Christ. This is a hidden mystery, not to be understood without the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is at hand to reveal the same to all holy seekers and loving inquirers. The completion of such is withheld and obstructed by the apocalyptic seals (7). The Spirit of God will open seal after seal, so shall the redemption come to be revealed particularly and universally.

The proclamation of this testimony of the Kingdom will be as the sound of a trumpet to alarm all nations of the earth, especially all professors of Christianity. There will be an authoritive decision given forth immediatly from Christ to put an end to all controversies concerning the true church. This decision will be an actual sealing of all the members of the true church with the name of God, giving them a commission to ACT by virtue of the same. This new name will distinguish them from the 7000 names of Babylon. The election and preperation of this true church is after a secret and hidden manner, as David in his minority was elected and annointed by the Prophet of God, yet was not admitted to the outward possession of the Kingdom for a considerable time afterward. Out of the stem of Jesse, a virgin church, which has known nothing of man or of a human constitution, is now being born. And if it is now being born, it will take considerable time to mature and get out to be shown to all onlookers and matures to it full risen potential. The birth of this virgin Bride Child Church was visionally typified by John the revelator by the great wonders in Heaven, bringing forth her firstborn that was caught up to the thrown of God. This new Church has been brought forth in the wilderness, and has been hidden away from the face of the dragon, and will soon become known to the world.

In Christ,
:heartbeat:
New Heart

Dears, there is such a danger in believing every spirit. Even the apostle John warns us:

"Beloved ones, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." -- 1 John 4:1

Surely he had in mind the words of our Lord:

"And many false prophets will arise and mislead many." -- Matthew 24:11

"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." -- Matthew 24:24

We also need to remember the experience of Job and his (so-called) comforter, El′i·phaz the Te′man·ite.

Eliphaz put stock in a vivid dream he had.....well, let's hear his own words on the matter:

"Now to me a word was stealthily brought, And my ear proceeded to get a whisper of it, In disquieting thoughts from visions of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men. A dread came over me, and a trembling, And the multitude of my bones it filled with dread. And a spirit itself went passing over my face; The hair of my flesh began to bristle. It began to stand still, But I did not recognize its appearance; A form was in front of my eyes; There was a calm, and I now heard a voice:

‘Mortal man—can he be more just than God himself?
Or can able-bodied man be cleaner than his own Maker?’
Look! In his servants he has no faith,
And his messengers he charges with faultiness.
How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay,
Whose foundation is in the dust!
One crushes them more quickly than a moth.
From morning to evening they are crushed to pieces;
Without anyone’s taking [it to heart] they perish forever.
Has not their tent cord within them been pulled out?
They die for lack of wisdom.

-- Job 4:12-21

Were his words to Job really a message from God? Eliphaz believed they were. Was Job misled? Thankfully, no!

Those who have had a holy spirit experience are particularly vulnerable to being misled because the special feeling of being touched by the spirit can be duplicated by that great imitator, Satan. Not for nothing is he referred to as an "angel of light".

There is good counsel in Proverbs:

"Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." -- Proverbs 14:15

We would not be in nearly the danger that we are at present if the WT had told us the truth about the 144,000 and not made it sound like an exclusive membership. I've met a number of folks who are "blissed out" by the belief that they are part of an elite group.

I'd like to comment on the question this thread presents. Maybe in another post. I just wanted to caution those who may be buying into dreams and visions at this time. The holy spirit does not produce conflicting beliefs.

God is a God of order.

Love, Rez:grouphug:

@New Heart... It is wonderful to hear of your experience. I do believe it was a vision given to you by Holy Spirit, but I also imagine that God works with us perhaps within based on our belief systems at the time.

In other words, if you believed that the 144,000 symbolizes the anointed, then it could be God's way of telling you that YOU are anointed, as well.

However, we need to be careful of building DOCTRINES around personal experiences.

@anjaandreas, your son's experience sounds very similar to what Jesus himself said in Revelation 3:12!

@Resolute, you're absolutely right... but neither New Heart's, nor anjaandreas' son's vision conflicted with scripture.

The truth is, ALL Christians who are born again are, by definition, anointed... but some people just need to get past their indoctrination to see that.

New Heart's vision may have been to remind her of her anointing, if she believed that the 144,000 are that anointed "group".

These things don't change the fact, as I see it, that the 144,000 in Revelation are referring to the Jewish escapees from Judea in the 1st century. :D

Hi Anja

I can't reply to your entire post, but sometimes it's important to question the assumptions upon which we base the rest of our interpretations, on the principle that: If the base isn't sound, the structure will fall.

You said:

I have a rule, which is to try not to read more into a passage than is being said. Jesus here is speaking to his 12 apostles... because he says those 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones.

Anyway, you seem to have a belief system similar to mine, in that you agree the 144,000 will be fleshly Jews... except you believe they will arise in the future.

But the very scriptures you quote to prove your case show that they (the anointed, the remnant etc) were already present, at the time Paul and the other writers were writing!

It seems to me you miss the point that Paul is making. For example, you quote Paul, who says after talking about the period of Elijah and the 7,000: "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

How can you project a group that appeared in Paul's day to really appear over 1,900 years AFTER Paul's day?

This is why the WTS are forced to believe the 144,000 started to appear in the 1st century, because of scriptures like the above... but I'm saying, they didn't merely START to appear... they ALL appeared and were sealed in the 1st century, because they were the 1st century Jews who formed the basis of the Israel of God!

I'm sure I don't need to remind you that God DID NOT replace Israel... as Paul says in Romans, he lopped off some of the branches (in 70AD in the great tribulation) while grafting in the Gentiles... but the Jewish root support the Gentiles... NOT the other way round!

The 144,000 from Israel became Israel, along with the Gentiles who were grafted in... that is Paul's case, in Romans 11.

Revelation 7 simply symbolizes what Paul was already saying in Romans 11 and elsewhere as happening IN HIS DAY... a remnant from the Jews (the 144,000), and the Gentiles (the "great multitude") grafted in.

I hate nesting one thing after another, but this is so true.
We will have spiritual experiences but we must check them many times. Satan is a crafty old Devil and the first of his ploys as in Eden it to make us think we are special.

Hi Anja

No, all I'm saying is that we should be careful of creating Mix N' Match doctrine, based on things that aren't even there in the passage.

In Mathew 19:28, Jesus is talking to his apostles about sitting on 12 thrones. Sure, elsewhere there are other thrones, but this particular verse shows that the apostles have got some unique thrones reserved for them. And why not? They are APOSTLES, after all.

Let's not use this verse and build something bigger than what it says - the same is true with any other passage of scripture.

Incidentally, in reference to the bride, don't forget this scripture:

"Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." (Rev 21:9)

Here we are told that the bride is the city, Jerusalem. Based on later descriptions, it seems it is definitely made up of PEOPLE, including the apostles and perhaps even the patriarchs, but I suspect that the vision also becomes a literal reality upon the literal city Jerusalem as well, fulfilling the more literal prophecies like Zechariah 14.

Hi Anja

Of course, but the "thrones" reference in Mathew 19 is specifically for his 12 apostles... as I said, 12 thrones for 12 apostles. The 12 APOSTLES are going to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. That is going to be the apostle's ROLE in the re-creation.

Of course all who conquer are to sit with Christ on his throne... that's what Jesus himself tells us in Rev 2... but it doesn't mean they are going to sit on one of the 12 thrones reserved for Jesus' 12 apostles. Yes, Jesus continues and explains that everyone will get a reward, but he has something special in mind for his 12 apostles.

I think you are reading too much into the "differences".

First, if they are now in heaven in Rev 14, the emphasis on sealing is now unnecessary.

And even though they have been brought from "men" (or "mankind"), they are described as firstfruits - a distinctly Jewish religious term. (If they are a different group, then by definition these are not firstfruits.)

Because they are being preserved through the "great tribulation" of 66-73AD, as symbolized by the "seven trumpets".

Yes there is. Pre-trib and post-trib positions both assume a falsehood - that the "great tribulation" is future.

Jesus says No: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Mathew 24:43)

"All these things" mean ALL the things he spoke of in Mathew 24. They must have ALL taken place within the lifetime of the generation to which he spoke. (Jesus did not say "some of these things... and I'll save the rest for 2,000 years later"... did he?)

Yes, because the angel was talking to Daniel about HIS people, yet you continue to ignore this.

"And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].” (Daniel 10:14)

The "final part of the days" therefore is of Daniel's people - the Jews! It is the same "end of the age" of which Jesus spoke about, to the Jews, in reference to their Temple and their system ending.

The shattering of the power of the holy people happened in Daniel's last "week", in 70-73AD.

I am not putting my private interpretation to this account in Daniel - it is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who told us what the disgusting thing was - critical for them to identify - because THAT was the signal for anyone in Jerusalem or Judea who put faith in him to flee the land. Jesus himself told us the interpretation.

Pre-trib, post-trib, Futurism, Watchtowerism... all of them put their own spin on these interpretations which put things in Jesus' mouth that he never actually said.

The "manchild" has already been caught up to heaven - in 33AD. This manchild is Jesus! The entire vision of Revelation 12 is a symbolic drama of 1st century Israel, the Messiah, the escape of true Israel into the wilderness (from 66AD), and the reason the Roman State begins to war with Christians from this point onwards.

It serves to set the scene for the wild beasts that are described in Rev 13.

If we stuck with Jesus' interpretation, that the "great tribulation" was a ONE TIME EVENT ("... great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again"), that happened from 66AD onwards... then we would find the Revelation of Jesus Christ would not pose so many dilemmas.

I'll admit, it would still not be entirely free of dilemmas... but at least we would no longer need to impose private interpretations on scripture.

Jesus Christ MUST have come on the clouds against Jerusalem in 70AD, because that's what he said he would do (and notice who he was speaking to):

"Meantime the chief priests and the entire Sanhedrin were looking for false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death... but Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!” Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to you men, From henceforth you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And their response?

"Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now you have heard the blasphemy. What is your opinion?” They returned answer: "He is liable to death."

So let me put it in simple terms. Jesus was speaking to the chief priests, the Sanhedrin and the high priest... and told THEM that THEY would see Jesus sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds. Those words were precisely the words that had him put to death.

Jesus therefore MUST have returned "on the clouds" within that generation, so that the same Sanhedrin who put him to death, would also witnessing him coming in power.

So whether we choose to accept it or not, Jesus DID come on the clouds against Jerusalem and Judea, between 66 and 73AD.

In other words, Mathew 24 ("all these things") were indeed fulfilled upon that generation... and would not occur again.

(But just in case anyone thinks I'm saying Jesus is therefore done... not at all!... because he will also come unveiled in the future, in order to defeat the kings at Armageddon... Revelation 19... a completely different scenario from Jesus' coming against Jerusalem, Judea and the Sanhedrin that put him to death.)

If we say that Jesus did not come in the 1st century, then we make him out to be a liar on two counts... 1. to the Sanhedrin who condemned him to death, and 2. to his disciples on the Mount of Olives, to whom he said that "all these things" would come upon "this generation", who also would witness the Temple being overthrown.

Itpt, In a short time you could have me as a Peterist! I all ready believe Armageddon will happen at the end of the Millennium, between the Kings (world leaders and Illuminati), followed by BTG.

How did the first cent Pharisees see Jesus coming on the clouds?
Do you feel that early fulfillment was singular, or will there be an end times fulfillment also? Will there also be a future Great Tribulation?
If not, then what events will mark the beginning of the Millenium?

Hi e-magine

And to paraphrase Paul's reply in Acts 26...

"I could wish to God that whether in a short time or in a long time not only you but also all those who hear me today would become men such as I also am - a partial Preterist, with the exception of these latter parts of Revelation.” :D

Superb question. In fact, that is probably THE most important question I have seen asked on this forum in quite a while :D

To answer this, we also have to consider Jesus' other statement... that they would see "the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power".

It seems likely he was alluding to Psalm 110, in which it begins:

"The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."

Thus, Jesus was implying he was the Lord to whom Jehovah was referring!

And for the "coming on the clouds of heaven" statement, it seems likely he was alluding to Daniel 7:

"I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." (7:13,14)

Jesus was essentially telling those Jewish leaders (who would have been well versed in the scriptures) that he was both of these characters! No wonder they replied with, "Blasphemy!"

So when Jesus used those phrases, he wasn't necessarily saying they would literally see him do both... because both of these were heavenly events, anyway - they were scriptural expressions to indicate he was Lord, and the "son of man" in Daniel. So I think he was saying, they would see him in the sense of recognizing that he WAS both.

Interestingly, before the Sanhedrin, it is Stephen who is given a vision of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God... but not the Sanhedrin themselves, although he tells them what he saw:

"But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” At this they cried out at the top of the voice and put their hands over their ears and rushed upon him with one accord." (Acts 7:55-57)

They didn't really need to see what Stephen saw... they needed to recognize the reality of it.

This is the important point: Jesus wasn't giving them a SIGN... he was saying they would recognize who he was.

Now, the Jewish leaders were, in fact, given plenty of signs. Josephus tells us about them - they included chariots skipping about in clouds; a nighttime light around the Temple for about half an hour, a star in the shape of a sword, and the gate of the Temple opening of its own accord, and a prophet called Jesus ben Ananias going round Jerusalem for about 7 years proclaiming a woe from the east, west and the four winds upon Jerusalem.

But the ultimate sign was the destruction of the Temple and city as he had foretold. That was how they saw the son of man "coming on the clouds"... when everything he said was fulfilled upon them.

These Jewish leaders were well versed in the scriptures, and Jesus was basically saying that he would demonstrate to them who he was. He did that by fulfilling everything he said, upon that generation.

Remember also, that his disciples were Jewish, and they recognized that expressions like "sun, moon and stars darkening" were not expressions meant to be taken literally, but were Jewish idioms used throughout scripture to mean something... in this case, the fall of a city, nation or ruler.

Similarly, when Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem that "they will start to say to the mountains, 'Fall over us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us over!"... they weren't literally going to talk to hills and mountains... but it was a Jewish idiom which was found in the prophets, and meant going into hiding... which, incidentally, the Jewish leaders did... hiding underground during their tribulation.

I believe Mathew 24 itself was uniquely fulfilled in the 1st century, with "all these things" contained in it coming uniquely upon the generation who put him to death, as a charge for all the blood of the prophets and righteous up until that point. The "great tribulation" was a one-time event, that will not occur again.

To explain the chronology of everything else, here's my "cliff's notes" on how I view Revelation:

I think it was written, as was most of the rest of the New Testament, prior to 70AD (most likely between 66 and 68AD as I'll explain), and contains a number of themes:

After the 7 congregations, the "seven seals" cover the run up to the fall of Jerusalem (THE major event of the century!), and the "seven trumpets" cover the great tribulation itself (66-73AD), and the fall of Jerusalem.

Chapter 12 is a kind of "The story so far" scene setting, describing Israel producing the Messiah (2BC), him going to heaven (33AD), and then the true seed of Israel (the Jewish Christians) fleeing Judea in 66AD, with a war in heaven going on during this time!

Chapter 13 focuses on the wild beast, the Roman empire which is persecuting both Jews and Christians, and was authorized by God to trample Jerusalem (70-73AD)

(As for when Revelation was written: If John was writing late in Nero's reign (i.e. 68AD), then Nero would be the ruler who "is", with five Caesars having fallen... plus, the entire empire was in an "abyss" as it were during this time, with Judea (east) and Gaul (north) in rebellion against Nero, and a civil war about to break out in Rome... so the circumstances of the period 66-68AD would fit the description of the beast at the time - "is not", but is "about to" ascend from the abyss - as if resurrected.)

However, in true Daniel style, these two wild beasts cover hundreds of years - all the time in which either the Roman empire, or the power dominated by Rome, rules the Earth... which includes the time in which Rome dominated by virtue of her spiritual power (aka as the Papacy).

Chapters 14-16 build up to the event which I believe marks the beginning of the Millenium, namely - Har-Magedon.

The "seven bowls" punish the wild beast, and weaken Babylon, until her ultimate demise at Har-Magedon.

To me, Babylon the Great is ROME, the great city (the "city of the seven hills") that in John's day was persecuting Jews and Christians, and that was the ruler of the kings of the earth. Remarkably, it has survived throughout history, and is still the city that many view as the spiritual capital of the world!

However, the Papacy lost its kingdoms from 1800 onwards, and in 1870 the Pope was left with only Vatican City, an enclave of Rome. Babylon the Great's fleshy parts have been eaten, but not yet consumed with fire, by the kingdoms that formerly supported her.

As for the wild beast, since it started out as the Roman empire, but Daniel showed it would eventually break up into a series of kingdoms, I presume it must be collectively the kingdoms that made up the former Roman empire... perhaps (although I'm not certain) now embodied in Europe... (which, incidentally, the European Union was formed upon the basis of the Treaty of Rome... and from 1 Dec 2009 now has its own President!)

The one final missing player, in my opinion, is Israel. I did a separate thread here...
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=5607
... demonstrating that God has not yet finished with Israel, and that some of the OT prophecies cannot be fulfilled in anything other than a literal way, upon literal Israel!

So we have an interesting scenario today - a united Europe, a re-inhabited Israel, and a weakened Rome spiritual power, that was weakened by the very nations that formerly supported it.

Personally, I think Har-Magedon is a war involving the land of Israel. It would explain why John gives us the name of the place, and give it in Hebrew.

I do not know exactly what triggers it, but there are several possible scenarios.

For one, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is a powder keg waiting to happen... with zealous Jews wanting to build a Third Temple there, even though the third holiest Muslim site, the Dome of the Rock, is situated there!

For me, this viewpoint of Revelation helps to line up the key players, and shows where we are in the stream of time. The key players are now here, and are ready and waiting to play their final part!

I hope that gives a reasonably comprehensive answer to your question :D

I see the idea of “first fruits” as not time or location related - but role/phase related – being “first fruits” of a role/phase of the Divine purpose toward the earth: that of selecting certain persons out of the general population of the faithful to serve in the heavenly realms as administrators. First YHWH selects and enthrones the king, and then Jesus selects the kings and priests. This is indicated in that Jesus said “… and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” Luke 22:28-30. And since Jesus ascended to heaven to accept the position of king after being resurrected, it seems apparent that Jesus was telling his followers that at least some of them would follow him to the heavenly realms to sit on thrones.

I don’t think that all first century Jewish or Gentile Christians were automatically selected for the position of kings and priests. And as far as being limited to natural Israelites, Jesus told the Jews that their collective “house” had been abandoned to them, and Paul says that there is no longer Jew or Greek or male or female, so that all the regulatory limitations of the Law covenant were now taken out of the way. Also Jesus said that “the kingdom of God” would be taken from natural Israel and given to a “nation” producing it fruits – which “nation” was a spiritual nation. So in my mind any prophecies referring to "Israel" take on a symbolic meaning.

So I believe the selection of the 144K is roll/phase related, not point in time related. Extrapolating the mind of Christ if I should be so bold, it would make sense that Jesus would select persons as administrators from every walk of life, male and female, from all periods of history, collectively having the full range of insights skills and abilities as he sees fit in order to have a complete and functioning administration with which to bring fallen mankind back into the fold of God’s Plan.

Of note is that Revelation itself takes place in multiple timeframes. In one timeframe John is writing what he is seeing take place in his lifetime - through the eyes of Jesus - who is evidently looking at a sampling of actual congregations in the present tense. But note what John is told: “Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.” Revelation 1:19. So John writes down what he sees, some of which takes place in his own day and others things he sees while in the spirit in the future, and even from that future vantage point evidently looks farther forward and even backward in time. So part of the trick (as I see it) in understanding Revelation is to figure out which timeframe John is standing in as he is writing down what he sees.

So while John sees “first fruits” of 144K standing on Mount Zion, that does not mean he is seeing persons/events that occur first in time – he is simply seeing a completed phase/event - and he writes it down as instructed. If John could have looked very closely at what he saw, maybe he would have seen his own "future" face in the crowd...


v r

HI V R ,

Just wanted to say I enjoyed your latest thoughts and I am in agreement with your understanding.

I especially like your words here quoted:

Along these same lines I am feeling that it is very possible that there are many yet to be chosen. We have always been given the impression that the vast majority of seats are already filled and that the "remnant" that will be alive on earth at the time of Christs return is only a small fraction of the 144K. But consider that these ones must be chosen from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation" (Rev.5:9,10), and that before they can be chosen, first they have to become followers of Christ. The earths population has been relativly small up until the past century and there are many places on this globe were people did not even have the opportunity until recent times to even hear the Gospel. So, according to Gods will, there may be heavenly positions waiting to be filled by persons from these varied "tribes,tongues,peoples,nations" who have only recently come to know Him or who are still yet to be found.

Jayme