Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

On several threads, I've pointed out the ASSUMPTIONS that modern science makes, upon which much of the rest of their models rest.

I was just reading the following article on the possibility of the Universe being ordered in a fractal structure, and it highlights these assumptions in the field of cosmology:

Galaxy map hints at fractal universe
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14200

Notice why the majority of scientists don't WANT it to be true. There are 3 reasons cited by the article:

1. Status Quo

"Many cosmologists find fault with their analysis, largely because a fractal matter distribution out to such huge scales undermines the standard model of cosmology."

In other words, they have a "standard model" and they don't want it to be disturbed!

2. Not Enough Time

"According to the accepted story of cosmic evolution, there simply hasn't been enough time since the big bang nearly 14 billion years ago for gravity to build up such large structures."

Precisely. Many scientists don't believe gravity was responsible at all - but they believe it's electromagnetic forces (at least 40 times stronger than gravity) that hold it together... these do not need "14 billion years", or indeed any time... to hold things together... the "accepted story of cosmic evolution" goes out of the window.

But this passage also shows how one ASSUMPTION holds together another ASSUMPTION, like a big stacked house of cards.

3. Our Assumptions Make Life Easy For Us

"What's more, the assumption that the distribution is homogeneous has allowed cosmologists to model the universe fairly simply using Einstein's theory of general relativity - which relates the shape of space to the distribution of matter."

In other words, if the Universe is NOT "homogeneous" after all, then their model is wrong, and they have to come up with yet another one - sigh.

...

The reason I posted this is, I wanted to show how modern Science isn't quite as rigorous as many here seem to believe. Much of it is based on ASSUMPTIONS, and as this article shows, if the ASSUMPTIONS turn out not to be true, then they have to re-write the entire book!

In fact, it also shows me that scientists are often inconsistent. They acknowledge that the Universe is organized fractally at a LOCAL level...

"Nearly all physicists agree that on relatively small scales the distribution is fractal-like: hundreds of billions of stars group together to form galaxies, galaxies clump together to form clusters, and clusters amass into superclusters."

... and yet, they then make a LEAP OF FAITH and say that, no... at larger levels it becomes homogeneous, i.e. smoothed out.

This was based, as the article points out, on the smoothness of Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB), which again they ASSUME is "relic radiation from the nascent universe".

...

As many of you know, I'm a Young Earth Creationist... and while I don't want to go there in this thread, my point is simply this:

Current cosmology, which teaches the Universe is X billion years old, is based on many ASSUMPTIONS, as the above article points out.

Of course, I should add the disclaimer that the article is NOT evidence that my point of view is right... I'm using it simply to highlight the fact that modern science ASSUMES many things... which may actually turn out in the long run, not to be true.

For example, IF the Universe does turn out to be like a fractal, then they will also have to revise their assumption that mere gravity holds things together in the first place.

(However, fortunately for them, Plasma theory scientists already have an explanation, but they are still a scientific minority.)

While Plasma models are NOT a product of Creationism, it actually would fit in beautifully well with Young Earth Creation, because you do NOT need billions of years of gravity to shape a galaxy. Electromagnetic forces can do it very quickly indeed.

...

I just wanted you to be aware of the many ASSUMPTIONS that are made in cosmology, before you put complete and utter faith in what Science tells you.

Of course, most of us are not scientists, and so we rely on what scientists tell us... but it's important to understand the assumptions they've made, especially when those assumptions touch matters affecting our faith.

For example: Every time you switch on a nature programme on TV, you are told that this species is X million years old, or that it evolved from so-and-so a species. Many of us here have learned to develop critical thinking faculties in regard to EVOLUTION, and questioning its underlying ASSUMPTIONS.

And yet, I'd suggest that many of us do not apply the same critical thinking faculties when it comes to fields like COSMOLOGY, and its underlying assumptions. We don't seem to question its assumptions like we might do with evolution's assumptions - perhaps because some of us are unaware of the assumptions, in the first place!

Hopefully the above New Scientist article gives you a glimpse of those underlying assumptions, which are just assumptions... and may not be true, after all.

Of course, they also MAY be true... but the point is, True Science does not sit in an ivory tower, but must be aware of its own assumptions, and be ready to challenge them and even accept when they are wrong.

And the lay person (like most of us) must be AWARE of those assumptions, and that they are not quite as CERTAIN as is made out.

Hi Int,
You failed to mention the YEC's God, the Celestial Joker God.
He made the universe look very old and made it 'APPEAR' light from distance galaxies had been coming to Earth for millions of years!
But 'hey presto', the CJG started all that celestial light coming to earth just six thousand years ago!
Therefore the distant galaxies, 'apparently', millions of light years away, have not really been created, but are a ginormous celestial illusionists trick.

Not one is them missing, but it must be lie, if what you say is true!!?

I don't think so.

You sound like a man trying to convince himself.


Derek

Psalm 104:

" Bless Jehovah, O my soul. O Jehovah my God, thou art very great; Thou art clothed with honor and majesty:

Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment; Who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain; Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters; Who maketh the clouds his chariot; Who walketh upon the wings of the wind; Who maketh winds his messengers; Flames of fire his ministers; Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.

Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a vesture; The waters stood above the mountains.

At thy rebuke they fled; At the voice of thy thunder they hasted away
(The mountains rose, the valleys sank down) Unto the place which thou hadst founded for them.

Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; That they turn not again to cover the earth.

He sendeth forth springs into the valleys; They run among the mountains; They give drink to every beast of the field; The wild asses quench their thirst.

By them the birds of the heavens have their habitation; They sing among the branches.

He watereth the mountains from his chambers: The earth is filled with the fruit of thy works.

He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, And herb for the service of man; That he may bring forth food out of the earth, And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, And oil to make his face to shine, And bread that strengtheneth man's heart.

The trees of Jehovah are filled with moisture, The cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted; Where the birds make their nests: As for the stork, the fir-trees are her house.

The high mountains are for the wild goats; The rocks are a refuge for the conies.

He appointed the moon for seasons: The sun knoweth his going down.

Thou makest darkness, and it is night, Wherein all the beasts of the forest creep forth.

The young lions roar after their prey, And seek their food from God.

The sun ariseth, they get them away, And lay them down in their dens.

Man goeth forth unto his work And to his labor until the evening.

O Jehovah, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all: The earth is full of thy riches.

Yonder is the sea, great and wide, Wherein are things creeping innumerable, Both small and great beasts.

There go the ships; There is leviathan, whom thou hast formed to play therein.

These wait all for thee, That thou mayest give them their food in due season.

Thou givest unto them, they gather; Thou openest thy hand, they are satisfied with good.

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; Thou takest away their breath, they die, And return to their dust.

Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground.

Let the glory of Jehovah endure for ever; Let Jehovah rejoice in his works: Who looketh on the earth, and it trembleth; He toucheth the mountains, and they smoke.

I will sing unto Jehovah as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have any being.

Let thy meditation be sweet unto him: I will rejoice in Jehovah.

Let sinners be consumed out of the earth. And let the wicked be no more. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise ye Jehovah."

Hi Derek

Take a look at this site, which incidentally, has nothing to do with creationism... it appears perfectly "orthodox", and just happened to be one of the first I came across when searching for the speed of light at the Big Bang:
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/bigbang.html

Now, it all sounds pretty orthodox, but notice what they say:

"But there is also nothing stopping the universe expanding faster than the speed of light. Although at any local point within the universe, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, this is not true for the entire universe. There is no limit on how fast space can expand."

The key is the last part: "There is no limit on how fast space can expand."

Now look at this scripture:

"Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it." (Isa 42:5)

So tell me... how fast did God stretch space, since "there is no limit on how fast space can expand"?

You and I don't know... all we know is that light within the vacuum of space travels at a knowable speed (the "speed of light"), but we do not know the speed of the expansion of space.

THAT is orthodox science.

In other words, the distance we can see (13.7 billion light years) or whatever, has got NO (or little) relation to its age.

Take a look at another orthodox page I stumbled upon:
http://cmb.physics.wisc.edu/tutorial/bigbang.html

We do not even KNOW the age of the Universe! To quote the above orthodox link:

"We mentioned before that based on its expansion, scientists approximate the universe to be about 15 billion years old. However, we can't see the whole universe, and we don't know how big it is. We can only see as far as light can travel, and right now we cannot "see" galaxies that are more than 15 billion light-years away because they have not yet entered our horizon."

If orthodox science accepts that...

(a) "There is no limit on how fast space can expand", and

(b) "We can't see the whole universe, and we don't know how big it is",

... then clearly the relationship between how much of it we can see, and its age, is very tenuous indeed... and that's using orthodox stuff!

So, no... I don't believe I'm stretching at all... it looks old simply to the scientists who make unscientific ASSUMPTIONS about the Universe.

Incidentally, orthodox science also suggests that the initial Big Bang WAS faster than the speed of light.

Another orthodox source:
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questio...number=167

"Inflationary cosmology solves these problems in the following way: in the early phase of the universe, it went through a phase called inflation, during which period, the universe expanded by a factor of more than 1050 in a time-scale of less than 10-30 seconds. So, there is some evidence that the universe DID undergo a period of expansion faster than the speed of light. But as you can see, the evidence is quite indirect and not something that we can directly see."

:D

What? So orthodox science allows for a time when the Universe expanded faster than the speed of light? :D

As I said, it LOOKS old only if you cling to assumptions about the Universe which it seems CAN be violated when orthodoxy chooses. It really makes me wonder who is stretching, after all.

So here's what ORTHODOX (current) science tells us:

(1) The expansion of space is not limited to the speed of light,

(2) We cannot see the edge of the Universe, so we don't know its size. (13.7 billion or 15 billion light years is simply the horizon of what we can see).

(3) The Universe began its expansion many, many times faster than the speed of light.

The point is... we therefore do not know the age of the Universe.

It could be 6,000 years... it could be 6 TRILLION years. It all depends on the speed of the expansion of space, which is UNKOWN.

Everything else is ASSUMPTION.

Absorption spectra of zircon crystals doped with Cr(IV): ZrSiO4:Cr4+

A quote:

"Crystals of ZrSiO4 ‘doped’ with Cr4+ have been prepared from oxide fluxes. The polarized absorption spectra (α,σ,π) of single crystals have been recorded in the range 6000–25 000 cm−1 at various temperatures from 10 K to room temperature. The polarized absorption spectra present three main wide bands in the regions 9600–14 000 (π), 15 000–19 500 (α, σ) and 20 500–24 000 (α, σ) cm−1. It is shown that with these spectra only the hypothesis of a replacement of Si4+ with Cr4+ is acceptable. An explanation and assignment of the bands are proposed by considering their polarizations and the site symmetry perturbation related to the distortion Td → D2d of the oxygen coordination. In particular the first band is assigned to the transition 3A2(3T1,et2)←3B1 and the next two bands to the transitions 3E(3T1,et2)←3B1 and 3E(3T1,t2)←3B1. This result agrees with a recent investigation on Y3Al5O12:Cr4+."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...216111a8f2

:coffeeread:

Hi Gogh

Let me ask you a question:

When a National Geographic documentary reports on a dinosaur that's 70 million years old, what do you think?

Do you believe dinosaurs ARE 70 million years old? Or has God fooled us by putting the appearance of age into those dinosaur fossils?

Or do you think human scientists have got it wrong?

I personally conclude that humans (yes, even Science, praise be!) have got it wrong, based on their evolutionary ASSUMPTIONS.

The field of cosmology is equally full of ASSUMPTIONS. The only difference is, for some reason many Christians seem to have accepted all of their assumptions hook, line and sinker.

I am amazed at how little people here are actually willing to discuss these things, but rather see orthodox science virtually as Holy Scripture... even though they themselves are engaged in heated debates over such subjects.

Heb 1

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”


7 And of the angels He says:


“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”


8 But to the Son He says:

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”



10 And:


“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


John 1 (New King James Version)


The Eternal Word

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John’s Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

23 He said: “I am


‘ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

“ Make straight the way of the LORD,”’ ( JESUS )


Matt 4


12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee. 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
15 “ The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”

John 3

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been
done in God.”

Rev 22
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.



Matthew 24:30
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What a Chariot ride!!!

3.Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

4.Mark 13:26
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

5.Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power,and coming with the clouds of heaven.”


6.Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

[/u]

Here I am to worship


Light of the world
You stepped down into darkness.
Opened my eyes, let me see.
Beauty that made this heart adore You
Hope of a life spent with You

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
All together worthy,
All together wonderful to me

King of all days
oh, so highly exalted
Glorious in heaven above
Humbly You came
To the earth You created
All for love's sake became poor

Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
All together worthy,
All together wonderful to me

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross
I'll never know how much it cost




Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
All together worthy,
All together wonderful to me


Here I am to worship,
Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
All together worthy,
All together wonderful to me

I'll never know how much it cost
to see my sins upon that cross--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nLyfzBfKw


BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

gogh Wrote:

Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions. Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.


Burbidge, G., 1992. Why only one big bang? Scientific American, 266(2):96.



‘Astronomers will grope their way in the dark tonight after the revelation that all their best ideas about the structure of the universe and the creation of galaxies are deeply flawed.’

Tom Wilke, The Age (Melbourne) January 4, 1991.

The above was written after a comprehensive survey of the cosmos revealed that it was ‘too lumpy’ for existing evolutionary theories to explain. Not just the ‘big bang’, but the very popular idea of belief in some mysterious ‘cold dark matter’ seems impossible to sustain in the light of a new map which is the first chart of the ‘local area’ of our universe. This ‘local area’ map covers more than 2,000 galaxies out to a distance of about 450 million light years.




Aldous Huxley was a British novelist who wrote Brave New World (1932), and was a grandson of ‘Darwin’s Bulldog’, T.H. Huxley. He was also the brother of the leading atheistic evolutionist Sir Julian Huxley (see quotes: Humanism as religion and Human soul and religion are just the product of religion), and died the same day as Christian apologist C.S. Lewis (see his quotes Materialistic Thoughts and Science began with belief in a Lawmaker), and the assassination of JFK (22 Nov. 1963). Aldous Huxley made this frank admission about his anti-theistic motivation:

‘I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.’

I remember becoming disillusioned by the world, and the falsehoods it foists upon the people in it.

I was six years old, in the first grade, and was on a field trip to the so-called "oldest city in the U.S."; St. Augustine, Florida.

While our group was walking down St. George Street, I couldn't help notice that more than one of the "oldest" 'this' shop, or the "oldest" 'that' shop, or the "oldest" 'whatever' was being built.

Brand new.

I also couldn't help asking another one the teachers about this, since my teacher was up ahead with another group of children.

I asked; "Had that "oldest" 'whatever', ever been there before, since it looked brand new from the foundation up?"

"No"; came the answer.

I asked; "Then, why are they putting a sign above it, saying it's the "oldest" 'whatever', when it had never been there before in the first place?"

"Isn't that lying?"

She answered, "My, My. Mrs. Kitchens (my first grade teacher) was right, you are a bright little boy.

"But, you might want to keep that to yourself; we wouldn't want to spoil the fun for everyone else."


"two lepta"

LTA,
John