Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Within the last several months, my roommates and I have made some friends of the Mormons who come knocking at all hours of the day. We invite them in for juice and biscuits, and we have many discussions about our different belief structures, the Bible, and the Book of Mormon. :friends: None of us living within the household are Mormon, however we did give them the time to tell us what their way of life meant to them, and were even gifted a copy of their Book. :read: In it, I was personally disturbed to find an account of a young boy murdering a drunk man in the streets, and then taking back his families funds. :reaper: There seems to be a lot of double talk in the very first book that boils down to sometimes for many to flourish, murder has to happen. :viking: I don't know if there are any Mormons on the board, but if any one would like to clarify the first book of Nephi, I'd love to hear another opinion as our friends the elders have gone back to Utah for the winter. :cry:

Ironically it was the exact story that I had read in a Sci-fi novel called the Memory of Earth, but then I found out the writer too was Mormon, and the book offered very little insight on the subject...Good book though. :reading:

Hey Draka, we had mormons stop by our door too! They seem to have repeat visits because I see them making return visits all over. Although we don't agree with much of their beliefs, we are pleased to see people sharing their faith with others. The first time two ladies stopped by and had a nice chat with my husband. They explained their beliefs and my husband explained ours. They were interested and asked him some questions. They left with us a tiny booklet and a card that had their information. We could get a free copy of the bible and book of mormon by requesting it from the contact information. I meant to request the book of mormon. I have heard things and am curious to see what is in it.

Here is what I found on the book of 1 nelphi:

Wikipedia says: 1 Nephi begins in ancient Jerusalem around 600 BC, at roughly the same time as the Book of Jeremiah in the Bible. It tells the story of a prophet, Lehi, his family, and several others as they are led by God from Jerusalem, across the Arabian peninsula, and then to the Americas by ship. The books from 1 Nephi to Omni recount the group's dealings from approximately 600 BC to about 130 BC, in which the community splits into two main groups, the Nephites and the Lamanites, and grow into separate sizable civilizations that war with each other.

Wikipedia has a full article of first book of nelphi. Click on the title to read more.

Salaam, Lou:read:

Thanks Lou, and it is worth requesting, because though I may not believe it, I find it a good read. ^_^. I'll definitely check out the Wikipedia site, thanks.

The Book Of Mormon can be read online at this link.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext91/mormon13.txt

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

It's also available at Arcamax
http://www.arcamax.com/religion/b-1355
and you can subscribe to have it sent to you in small chunks by email.

I remember being approached by Mormons and received a copy but sent it back. I remember reading in it that Jesus was born in Jerusalem and from that concluded that it was "apostate literature", but I was very much in the JW mindset as I'd just been baptised so I'm not sure that I was reading it with an open mind. Consequently, I'm in the process of reading it again to make sure.

Personally I think that Joseph Smith was just delusional and having read the Bible (or had it read to him, as I'm sure I heard that he was illiterate), got it all garbled in his head; much of it's language is suspiciously similar to the KJV. I think it reads pretty much like the kind of dream that you get when you've been concentrating too hard on a complicated thriller and eating cheese at the same time :shocked::eat: = :funnyface:

Just MHO

Love Rach:heartbeat:

The Mormons cannot corroborate one thing in their book from the Scriptures and vice versa. Their justification for use of their book is the claim that the Bible has been tampered with and/or mistranslated, like the Muslims. Satan loves to use religion, doesn't he. :rant:

Do the Mormons use the bible? The Muslims are not christians and as such their holy book is not the bible, rather the quran.

I was wondering if the Mormons, as a christian sect/denomination used the bible? Also, which book is their final authority?

Salaam, Lou

Yes Lou, they do use the bible and even go thru every single book they have written just like the WT , every year a different one .

Since I was one for a couple of years and my best friend is a mormon, I know and also hear plenty about their beliefs and teachings and even secret things that no one is supposed to know on the outside :whistle:

Anyway, the final truth according to them is found in their book of Mormon ... they say that they use the bible but if it contradicts with the book of Mormon then they don't accept the bibles view.

This was also the reason that I left after a short time of being one and shy away from them .. it was a stab to my heart to hear that and something I just couldn't accept .. alot of what they believe in doesn't get made known to you until you are baptized ... they have very strange teachings that they teach you afterwards and this is very deceptive if you ask me ... question is, are the JW's heading in the same direction ? Will some of their so called indepth insights be with-held in the future and not made available to those interseted until they accept the anointed as their head ?

I wonder :confused::cry:

love always , LC :heartbeat:

Hi Aurora :hibye: thanks for your reply.:love: I have a few more questions if you don't mind? :giverose::read:
Question 1: What are some of their secret beliefs?
Question 2: Do they disfellowship or shun?
Question 3: Are Mormons allowed to disagree with some doctrines or is there pressure to conform?

Thanks in advance Aurora!:love: (The only experience I have with Mormons is the two ladies visiting and HBO's Big Love-I watched a few episodes- :blush::redface:)

Salaam, Lou:hibye:

Saying that Mormons are a Christian denomination is like saying Muslims are a sect of Judaism. What they are is counterfeit and a part, along with the WTBTS, e-w, and the rest of the religions of the world, of Babylon.Their final authority is their president whom they claim has a direct pipeline with God.

Hi Freyd, I am not sure I agree with your statement. The comparison that you made is like comparing apples to oranges. For one thing though Judaism and Islam have things in common, they are two separate faiths. However mormons are christians or at least view themselves as such. Many folks say that JW are a cult and not part of christianity. JWs say catholics aren't true christians. It seems every group is on a quest to prove that they only are the faithful. The truth is God's people can be found everywhere.

Salaam, Lou:hibye:

From what I have seen, some aunts and uncles of mine are. They have very similar basic structural beleifs as do witnesses. Very cultish, like witnesses can't go in a church we couldn't go in their temple in maryland when my cousin was getting married. it is like one of the most holy temples for them. they have arived at these thru a different theology tho.. Smith who found the golden plates that were hidden in upstate ny sound familar? it always puzzled me why the watchtower is in NY. This was a revelation to him from god and he wrote the book of mormon from this point is what I have been told. I have their book if u need me to verify things. I find it to be useless in my search for the true God. as a man who is trying to be a good man by our own standards I believe their books have some merit.

All this is from my fragile memory. so I am only repeating what I think I heard. :redface:

TD
we have many religious beliefs in my family.

Shalom dittos Lou. Judaism and Islam do have things in common as do mormonism and cathoholism which both claim to be Christian but don't teach things from the Bible unless it agrees with their nonsense. You might as well call islams a sect of Christianity since they claim that when Jesus returns he's going to instruct the world that mohammed was the true prophet of God, ie, the comforter, that Jesus said he would send. :funnyface: For that matter you might as well call Christianity a sect of Judaism since they also have much in common. :drinking:

Hi Aurora  thanks for your reply. I have a few more questions if you don't mind?  
Question 1: What are some of their secret beliefs?
Question 2: Do they disfellowship or shun?
Question 3: Are Mormons allowed to disagree with some doctrines or is there pressure to conform?

Thanks in advance Aurora! (The only experience I have with Mormons is the two ladies visiting and HBO's Big Love-I watched a few episodes- )

Salaam, Lou

Hi there Lou  :happyheart:

You asked ... Question 1: What are some of their secret beliefs?

Not so much belief but what they do ... secret hand shakes and words in order for you to get into their temple ... getting a different name ( white pebble ) that no one knows exept you etc .

Also one of their teachings is that depending on your faith and on how bad of a person you are that there is a different spiritual level of existence that all will receive and I think there are 3 levels ... they don't believe in a burning Hell but that there is also a place of spiritual torment since these individuals are seperated from GOD.

The Highest honor is that of becoming just like GOD and having spirit children ... also those woman that had husbands while on earth but that didn't get married in their temples, can be accepted as wifes of other male GODs ...( my friend just recently told me that she was hoping to be one of Joseph smith's wifes when she goes to heaven ) .

I guess poligamy is now also a part of the spiritual blissfull state ...
I was flabbergasted when I heard that ... and I'm still shaking my head about it

There is also a mother in heaven .. but you don't get told this until your baptized .. also the washings that you have to do in order to go into the temples ... your completely naked and you get washed from head to toe by someon else and get a white garment to put on .. then you sit in a room in the temple and wait for your turn to go do baptisms for the dead in a washbowl held up by golden calves ... ( my friend said that many times she feels the spirit of the one she is doing this for with her in the room ) kinda creepy if you ask me ..

Also there is a time when you receive a blessing or reading so to say from a special priest ( I don't remember exactly what their called )... but this person puts their hands on your head and he tells you your lineage , what tribe your from and what your work is to the Lord.

Question 2: Do they disfellowship or shun?

I believe they do disfellowship but it's nothing like what we experience ... when I disassociated myself and asked not to be bothered with any visits, they lovingly accepted it and to this day if I ever come across any of them they usulaly hug me and ask how I am doing etc ... there has never been anything negative said about me or my decission, it just goes to show you that even if they have much wrong in their teachings .. showing love and affection to those on the outside goes a long way ... I really miss the fellowship very much .. there was much support and help with life in general in all areas ...
( My friends husband who is a Mormon has an issue with smoking .. because of this he cannot hold a priesthood possition or have temple privledges and they were considering on disfelloshipping him for this matter, so he stopped smoking for a while but then started again and so they had him come in for a hearing .. his wife ( my friend ) was also invited to be at this hearing, anyway at the end after taking all things into consideration his wife came to his defence and told them that her husband was trying really hard to beat this bad habit and that he did the best he could ... guess what ... they didn't disfellowship him and gave him time to comply ( my friend said that the elders were very loving and gracious in their replies ) .. the only thing is that he is not allowed to partake of the emblems every week until he has a righteous standing again and others may talk to and encourage him as much as possible but not to socialize privately so much, such as being around him constantly .... something to think about and the WTS also should focuss on and not just judging and condeming and throwing us to the wolves as soon as we err .

Question 3: Are Mormons allowed to disagree with some doctrines or is there pressure to conform?

They are allowed to speculate on scriptures when it concerns prophetic or symbolic things .... but not on doctrines .. that's a no no ... instructions come from the top down , not from the congregation ( woman ) so to say .. it's similar as what the WTS teaches.

You should listen to some of the strange things they talk about .. everything from GOD coming in a space ship or that we were put here by alliens and that these alliens were infact angels ect ... all kinds of speculations .. sometimes we laughed about the crazy things people said.

They fully believe that their prophet speaks for GOD and I have even heard them say that they believe that Jesus is in their upper chambers ... some have said in the past a long time ago that there were earlier reports of angels on the roof tops of their church and even now some are waiting for this sort of thing for a sign to unbelievers ..

Aside from this .... many of their dates correspond to the mayan calender and also Jewish beliefs , their date for Hell on earth is 2012 ... they believe that the Jews are still GODs people ( stick of Judah ) and that all the rest, the gentiles are ( the stick of Ephraim ). Mexico is a huge area of increase right now since they claim to have knowledge of their ancestry .

well, time to get to another subject ... I gotta get something together for gogh on another subject and my typing is taking forever :blush:

I hope this helped and gave you better insight into their beliefs . Let me know if there is anything more you wish to know ...

Love always, LC :happyheart:

I have a Book of Mormon, as I "investigated" at one time. The book is full of inconsistencies and inaccuracies, and I've made study notes all throughout the margins in the book. Here are ten examples:

1 -- Alma 7:10 does say Jesus was born in Jerusalem.

2 -- The first book in it, 1 Nephi, is supposedly written by a Jew, who was also the son of a Jew. However, at 1 Nephi 1:2 he states "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians". Um....Jews didn't speak Egyptian!

3 -- 1 Nephi 4:9 mentions implements of steel. This was written supposedly 600 years before Christ. Steel hadn't been invented yet.

4 -- 1 Nephi 1:4 mentions it as being the first year of King Zedekiah. Later, at 1 Nephi 7:14 it states Jeremiah was thrown into prison. Now, in the bible this was done during Zedekiah's 10th year (Jer.32:1-2). However, the B.O.M. has this within the first couple years of Zedekiah, because it isn't until much later in Nephi (1 Ne.17:4) that it was only eight years later. (did you follow me on that??!!??)

5 -- 1 Nephi 18:25 occurs after the family arrived in the Americas. Here is mentions the existence of asses and horses. Keep in mind, this was several hundred years before Christ. Also keep in mind, horses didn't exist in the Americas until the spaniards brought them in the 1500's A.D.!

6 -- 1 Nephi 22:15 quotes from the Bible Book of Malachi....165 years before it was actually written!

7 -- 2 Nephi 1:6 prophesies that the only people who come to North America will be those brought by the hand of God. If this were true, does this mean the September 11th airplane bombings were God's plan? That illegal aliens are God's plan? That the white people invading the Native American territory and annihilating them was God's plan?

8 -- 2 Nephi 2:23-25 states that Adam sinned so that humans could be born. It states Adam would have never known joy if he hadn't known sin. This contradicts the bible, which says there is Joy in God's presence (Ps.16:11) and God's command to multiply came before they sinned (Gen.1:28).

9 -- The consecutive verses of 2 Nephi 5:15-16 blatantly contradict each other.

10 -- 2 Nephi 5:10 States they observed all things according to the Law of Moses. Later on, in Mosiah 2:3 is states: "And they also took the firstlings of their flocks that they might offer sacrifice and burnt offerings according to the Law of Moses". What's wrong here is, the Law of Moses said the firstlings of the flocks were for the Lord and the priests, they weren't for the common people to sacrifice. Only the priests, who were Levites, could do this.(Numbers 18:15-18) But there were no Levite priests in the "New World", therefore they weren't going according to the Law of Moses.

Of course, there are tons more examples beyond these. This is just a smattering.