Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Here is today's Watchtower Study article titled "Everlasting Life On Earth - A Christian Hope?" and as usual is from Br James' thread at the e-JW site.



Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Good morning. Interesting study and very scriptures based.

We can have a clear picture on the term Re-Creation.
What is "the re-creation" that Jesus speaks about at Matthew 19:28?
Why?

Well when Jesus Christ sits down in heaven upon his glorious throne, along with those who will rule with him, he will establish a righteous new system of things. (2 Timothy 2:11, 12; Revelation 5:10; 14:1, 3) By means of Christ’s heavenly rule, God’s original purpose for the entire earth to be a paradise will be fulfilled!

Wonderful blessings we all wait soon!

This, an odious twisting of scriptures to justify their claim of being Christ's representatives, worthy of being Kings and priests! They alone, the FDS, aka, GB, will receive a spiritual resurection to heaven, the rest will be obedient to them and will live on Earth.
Consider the scriptures sighted, and see if they indicate 2 hopes for Christians, 2 resurrections, a few to Heaven, the rest to Earth:

Par. 4..Lk 12:32. "little flock" will receive the Kingdom. This does not show that this "Little Flock" will receive the Kingdom exclusively. Jesus explains that he has "other sheep" that will also receive the Kingdom. This is no proof of a duality, or 2 types of resurection. The other sheep are clearly the Gentiles!

Par 6...Follow the circular reasoning in the paragraph!

Par 7&8...Jn. 3:5.."born again" "Unless anyone is is born again from water and spirit he cannot inherit the Kingdom". How does this indicate a limited few will receive a resurection to Heaven when they admit that most will inhearit the Kingdom, on Earth? Jesus ment as spiritual people, not physically minded!

Par 12..Jn 10. Little flock. This only proves a small flock and a large flock, togeather as one flock. No duality!

Par 13. "you will be with me in paradise", not in heaven. OK, Jesus will be with him in paradise on Earth!

Par14..1 Cor 15:49...We will be in "the image of the Heavenly One".
He explains in vs. 52, those still living will be changed, to spiritual people, like Jesus was/is. Whats this have to do with heaven? Can't we be spiritual even now? Paul thought so.
...1 Col. 1:15..."hope reserved in heaven" ...Thats like the "book of life". It's written down some where in Heaven, right?

Par 15. Heb:3:1... This is a good one. Check Inter liner. The "partakers" are heavenly, not the "calling" heavenly. The partaking is done here on Earth, is it not?

Par 17...Rev 21:1-4... New Jerusalem comes down, where, to Earth!
...Rev5:10...Is it, "rule over Earth, or on Earth? Check the Interliner and see! Big difference!

paragraph 11 above speaks of the "bread of life" which Jesus said was his flesh which he sacrificed. notice that the article rightly attributes the same redeeming power of this "bread" to both those with a heavenly hope and those who will live on earth...ALL.

They quote " if ANYONE eats of this bread" and equate that to faith in Christ Jesus. I agree!

One question I must ask then...Why do not ALL then partake of this "bread" symbolically at the Lords supper as a open witness and confession of our faith in the power of His sacrifice? Jesus himself commanded us to "do this in rememberance of me".

By the reasoning used in this article it is hard to understand why they dont seem to get it, that all Christs followers are in the New Covenant.
I have been researching this point lately and, as many others have concluded, I think we are all in the New Covenant arrangement.

May Jehovah keep my mind open and help me to the proper understanding.:pray:

jayme

You are right Jayme.
We must keep an open mind. Just as everyone in the land of Israel was in the first covenant or had the opportuninty (including alien residents), so then everyone has the opportunity to be in the new covenant.

Psalm 37:29 (New American Standard Bible):
"The righteous will inherit the land And dwell in it forever."

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (New American Standard Bible):
"A generation goes and a generation comes, But the earth remains forever."

Psalm 104:5 (New American Standard Bible):
"He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever."

Hear, hear, e-mag! :cheer: I studied the article and typed a reply before I read the other posts, and I see we're definitely on the same page!

Par. 4--Has anyone ever looked up Rev. 5:9-10 in the KIT? I just did, because my NASB is worded differently from the NWT. It says they will reign “upon” the earth, not over it. BIG difference. The KIT confirms that, literally, the Greek says, “And you made them to the God of us kingdom and priests, and they are reigning UPON the earth.”

Par. 6--I’m wondering what is going on in the organization right now for them to be pouring it on so thick to ensure that loyalty to the “brothers” is maintained? :beatoverhead:

Par. 6-- Psalm 72:8—How is this verse applicable to the regeneration when Revelation 21:1 clearly says “there is no longer any sea?” If you back up a few verses in Psalm to 72:8, it reads, “Let them fear thee while the sun endures.” When you go forward a few verses to Psalm 72:17, it reads, “May his name increase as long as the sun shines.” Yet, Rev. 21:23 and 22:5 both say that in the eternal state, the regeneration, there will be no need of the sun or the moon, because the glory of God will illumine the holy city. Which is a good thing, since the first and second heavens as well as the earth and all the elements (microscopic building blocks of matter) they contain will melt with intense heat according to 2 Peter 3:10. Obviously, the passage from the Psalms applies prophetically to the 1000 year reign of Christ and NOT the recreation, as suggested.

Par. 8--It’s interesting the way they interpret Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. When I read the passage, it seems quite clear that unless one is born again, he cannot see nor enter into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is the kingdom of God, whether an earthly or heavenly one, although Rev. 21 & 22 are pretty straightforward on the issue that they are combined.

Par. 9—John 4:14—Really? And I thought the water represented the Holy Spirit! John 7:38-39: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Rev. 7:16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Par 10—The Son can only do what he beholds the Father doing. Gotta slip that in! I wonder, who could do the things they see the Father doing? :dontknow: Psalm 86:8-10: “There is no one like You among the gods, O Lord, Nor are there any works like Yours…For You are great and do wondrous deeds; You alone are God.” Psalm 89:5-7: “…For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD? Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD…” Hmmm, but Jesus does everything the Father does (works) exactly as the Father does them. John 5:19: “…for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” :scratchhead:

John 5:24: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life.” (They left out a little).

Par 11—“He will be in line for everlasting life?” I pray that people who study this article won’t stop short when reading this passage of Scripture. John 6:54: “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.” John 6:58: “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate, and died, he who eats this bread SHALL LIVE FOREVER.”

Par 12—Little flock/other sheep—I can’t comprehend how this teaching has endured this long. Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (the Jews). (Mat. 15:24; 10:6) The “other sheep” are the Gentiles who would later be brought into the same fold (John 10:16) and grafted in among the branches of the olive tree (always a symbol of Israel), fed by the same Root (Romans 11). And the Jews and the Gentiles “shall become ONE flock with ONE shepherd.” (John 10:16) Eph. 4:4: “There is ONE body and ONE Spirit, just as also you were called in ONE HOPE of your calling.”

Par 13—Luke 23:42,43—This introductory statement, “Truly I tell you,” “Truly I say to you,” “I tell you truthfully,” was commonly used by Jesus. I counted 50 times in the first three gospels, and I looked up every single one of them. Why is this the ONLY instance where the NWT moves the comma one word past the introductory statement?

Par 17—I don’t think so. I’m one of those “believing mankind,” and my hope is that God’s burning desire of the ages to dwell among His people (Ex. 25:8; Ex. 29:45-46; Ex. 40:34; 2 Chron. 7:1; Ez. 10; 11:22-23; Ez. 43:1-4, 6-7; John 1:14; Acts 1:9-12; Matt. 16:27; Matt. 24:27-30; Zech 14:1-9; Rev. 21, 22) might very soon come to pass! But please hold off, LORD, until I get the opportunity to lead one more JW to Christ. And I ask that in Jesus’ name!

Cheers :drinking: and Warm Christian love :heartbeat:

Hang in there, my brother, enduring deliberate deception may be worse than enduring mere ignorance but think of all those who like Jayme are repeating to themselves: :pray:"May Jehovah keep my mind open and help me to the proper understanding!"

How many others live daily with the cognitive dissonance that "something just doesn't compute, but since I haven't the time and resources to figure it out, I'll just have to agree because of this massive confusion in my head."

Well that's the deliberate deception working its evil ways and groupthink mentality forces us to simply agree out of sheer exhaustion.:thinking::igiveup::sleepy:

Yes, Vicky, it just makes so much more sense.

MY take:

The ancient nation of Isreal prefigured how Jehovah would structure things on a global level in the future. Eventually, all on earth will be part of "Isreal". Just as all were in the first covenant so too all must be in the New Covenant.

Jesus is our leader, High Priest and King. Then some from the "sons (or nation) of Isreal" (rev. 7:4) are specially chosen to be priests with Jesus, just as the sons of Levi were chosen from the sons of Isreal to be priests.

Then we have what the rest of the nation as a whole represented ....those who will inhabit the earth in subjection to the Kingdom oversight. These are the ones Jesus was speaking of when He told the apostles that they would rule over the "12 tribes of Isreal".(matt. 19:28)
The 12 tribes represented the whole of faithful mankind who will live on earth.

Now the QUESTIONS: :confused:

If this is true, what must we do to be in this New Covenant? Faith in Jesus and His sacrifice is of course a must, but must we also share in the partakeing of the bread and wine?

For one who has been a JW their whole life this is a hard thing to consider. To their credit I feel JWs have many things right. I also feel most b/s have a sincere desire to please God and have faith in Christ Jesus. Most b/s also seem to have a genuine desire to fulfill the Lords command to make disciples and preach about the Kingdom. Although they are misled on some things and their methods often arent the greatest, I do admire those who are sincere.

So, are they in the New Covenant by virtue of their faith, even if they dont understand it because of being misled? Or are they left without a covenant? If they are keeping themselves and others from coming into the New Covenant, then despite all their good points, this would be of the greatest concern! matt 23:13 :dontknow:

As far as I know JWs are the only christain denomination who teach that only a few should partake, while the rest should not. This is confuseing because JWs as a group seem very committed to liveing in accord with what the Bible says as far as morals, neutrality, and preaching.... ect. Of course I am aware that they are very human too!
And, admittedly, I have very limited experiance with how other professed christians really live their lives.

Sorry for all the blah, blah, blah....Im just tryin to work thru this.

:dontknow: :read: :confused:
jayme

This is true but for one tiny thing. I think you meant flock not fold.
I think the society deliberately uses similar words to help confuse us.
The fold was really a walled in courtyard, and when not pertaining to sheep the Greek word is translated as courtyard. It was a place of protection, but no freedom or fresh pasturage. Sheep pen is a better word, and we understand the phrase being 'penned in'.
There are two illustrations in John 10. First Jesus gives the illustration of a courtyard found in a villlage or town where shepherds bring their sheep for the night. This courtyard has a gate keeper who knows the shepherds. He keeps watch overnight and opens to the shepherds he knows in the morning, the shepherds do not need to wade into the flocks to find their sheep, but instead can just call them by name.
The second illustration is of an enclosed pen in the countryside.This pen is surmounted by a crown of thorns to prevent people climbing over the walls. It has a narrow opening to let the sheep in, and then the shepherd builds a fire on the outside of the entrance and lays himself down across the opening on the inside. In the morning the sheep are released. Again they are taken to open pastures. They are not put into another pen as the WT teaches. They can come and go as they please. The other sheep have not been in this pen (fold) but come and intermingle as one flock in the freedom of the pastures. The pen was the Mosaic law covenant, hence those never having been penned inside that protective wall were the Gentiles.

vicky