Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

I've seen many topics recently mentioning Freemasonry, the Illuminati, Lucifer, Satan and other miscellaneous spooky bodies. :rant:

We've seen both sides of the coin here, from people who believe it's pretty much all a big Conspiracy (hello Jeshurun! :hibye: ), to people who believe the conspiracy theorists are nuts (hello Gus! :hibye: ), to people who believe Satan's already been abyssed, so everything that goes on is just humans doing what they do (hello donbodo! :hibye: )

Clearly, our interpretation of the Bible has a big impact on how we see the world. For instance, I remember debating with Christadelphians, who do not believe in a supernatural Devil, or in fallen angels. If you don't believe in demons, then naturally any "demonic activity" must be something else, i.e. mental illness, or quackery.

If the Devil and demons do exist, then Christadelphians are not getting a full understanding of what's going on around them.

Now, I can at least understand donbodo's world view. Since he believes Satan is currently in the abyss, he is not free to meddle in world affairs... so what's going on in the world is simply human.

However, I find it more difficult to grasp the view of people who believe Satan is not abyssed, and yet they mock conspiracy theories in general.

To those people, I ask:

How is the world run?

Does Satan not have a hand in running the world? In which case, why did Jesus call him "the ruler of the world"?

If Satan does have a hand in running the world, then how does he do this? What is the mechanism for him running the world?

I guess my point to this question is this: If Satan is "the ruler of the world", then naturally he does it in a shadowy way (i.e. behind the scenes), since even in Jesus' day it was actually the Romans who visibly ruled the world. Satan is a spirit, so of course we would not see this invisible rule.

But... we could see the outward consequences of that rule. For instance: Herod tried to have the baby Jesus killed, the rulers of Jesus' day tried to have him killed, the Devil tried to tempt him at the start of his ministry, and eventually succeeded in having him betrayed to the Roman authorities, who put him to death. Later, both Roman and Jewish authorities try to put Christians to death, and starting from Nero and lasting for 10 persecutions, the apparatus of the Roman state is periodically employed to wipe out Christians... until the coup de grace, when an Emperor becomes head of the Church! And thus, the State gained control of the Church.

And so we come to today.

So those who mock or disbelieve conspiracy theories... how is the world run today?

Has Satan retired to Palm Beach County? Are there no supernatural forces any more, with their hand in the affairs of state?

Who runs the show, and how?

Hi Interpertum :hibye:

What a great issue you have raised here--how does the Devil influence daily life as we break it all down? What does it mean that the ''whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one'' I know I see that power and influence as extremely pervasive and affecting us in ways we don't even stop to think about--we wrestle against it. I also know there are things that happen amongst individuals that are so evil I can't even bear to hear about them. I always feel that evil is the devil at work but then what about Ephesians 6:12--''we have a wrestling not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.'' --we are warned against ''the machinations of the devil''. Interesting to think how this manifests itself in specific ways. I have thought it would be paradise if only the devil were gone with his ghastly influence gone with him--but that's just me--I look forward to thoughts on this subject :love: :friends:

Hmmm..."mocking" is a bit inflammatory; but I'll bite. Perhaps the terminology used (ie: the accusation of 'mocking') is evidence of where I'm coming from. For instance, I ask people to believe that they are actively involved in a conspiracy. And I ask them to believe that there are thousands of sub-conspiracies that exist to distract them from "the big one." These sub-conspiracies get people emotionally-involved in finger-pointing as a coping mechanism to avoid self-responsibility and guilt for taking part in and perpetuating the original "conspiracy" foisted upon man by satan:

“YOU positively will not die. 5  For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.” (Gen 3, NWT)

...and supporting Jehovah's contention when he agreed with satan:

22  And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad” (Gen 3, NWT)

The rest, the entire system created at that point, unfolding for millenia, is a matter of conditioning, one generation to the next. We are, essentially, little tin gods, knowing "good" and "bad" with full rights and privileges to judge others based upon our own tenuous standards. Hypocrisy is the order of the day. It's sheer genius. In the 'art of war,' if one can recruit an antagonist as a protagonist to unknowingly do his dirty work for him, he achieves success. Satan did it to the first man (who, had he known satan's motivations, would never have subscribed); and we have unknowingly subscribed to it ever since.

I don't know if satan has been abyssed or not. Every one of my senses tells me that he has not (although I don't completely trust my senses as yet), and the forces of evil may even be available to tweak the system as necessary; but by and large, the system is a smooth running machination where even the institutions dedicated to its downfall unknowingly contribute to its success. They are, after all, run by men who have not experienced "the change," so they can't help themselves and don't even realize they're part of the problem.

Jehovah God is calling us home. As long as we insist on determining the way, the truth and the life, we won't find it...because the mindset that is at the root of all problems can't see above its own head. It can't be intellectualized.

25  At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. 26  Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you. (Matthew 11, NWT)

You can't strike a deal with the devil to prolong this life and expect long-term success in the next...yet the vast majority do it everyday.

gus

Satan is alive and kicking, and enjoying all the theories regarding his non existence.:( That way, he can get on with his rampage without much fight or interest from those he's out to attack. Which is the whole world, of which he is ruler.:( Wolfie quoted from scripture regarding him, and warning us, that we should be very alert to the fact that he is dangerous, like a roaring lion out to devour.:read: Keep your senses everyone.:read:
Christian love to all.

Sister Grateful.:giverose:

I was recently reading a Fantasy novel who actually came upon this issue in a manner of speaking, as odd as it sounds. Except they were talking of the way evil people will run things. They said there were two main types: the ones who are up front about it, in the way a James Bond bad guy is over the top, and the ones who whisper in the ear of nobles, guiding their actions and making sure there's enough of "good" things for the people that last for but a moment, as they strip them of their true freedom and happiness. In the story, she called the second one the most dangerous, because the plans set in motion aren't made on the moment, it's based on years and years of patience and planning. To find a way to their own goal. In those cases, like we have seen in history, the people who are under the rules and laws do not know who to blame and begin to see things as the way "things have become" or "the way things are" because of the gradual change and collapse of their society. In other words, they never see it coming. Personally I am under the belief that Satan :devil: is the current ruler of our world, and does whisper in the ears of mortals in order to have things done. Making promises so that he may not have to exert power for the little things. :detective:

Just an opinion though, lol.

I've brought this up before, but perhaps a reiteration would be good on this thread.

In the Bible, when Satan is spoken of as controlling the governments, he has one purpose in mind, and one purpose only:

To destroy Jesus (Rev. 12:4) and his followers (12:17).

In fact, Interpretum, the examples you cited establish just that point.

Much has been made of the verse that says that the dragon "is misleading the entire inhabited earth" (12:9), as if this means that he is vaguely misleading them in all sorts of directions to do evil in general, but for no real purpose (or for a purpose that the Bible never talks about).

But it is clear from the book of Revelation what he is trying to get the nations to do: kill the Christians (20:8).

So there is nothing in the Bible that says Satan is trying to set up a "New World Order" or any other scheme, other than using the nations to destroy God's people. That's what he misleads them for.

Now, as has been mentioned, I think Satan is in the abyss. However, I do believe that Revelation says one day he will be let out and will attempt to do the same thing (20:7-10) and will fail again.

Hi Interpretum

I think Greek mythology is very near the mark of how the gods (Spirits)  interfered in and played with the lives of men.These spirits fight and squabble over dominion of  nations and peoples worship.  Human politics, wars and religion is a reflection of how the Spirit world operates: if we allow them we are their pawns.

Satan will have offered angels authority to rule with him.We can see in         Daniel 10 : 13, 20 ,21 The Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece. When we read in the Bible of the fall or rise of a King or World Power we are seeing also the fall or rise of a Spirit being behind the scenes.

Hi donbodo

How can Satan be seen as already abyssed ?
Could you explain why you think that.

although i dont see it as having yet occured it says in Rev12:9

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who IS misleading the entire inhabited earth;   17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed,

Satans Political Organisation destroyed after being gathered by Demonic Propaganda to Armageddon

Rev16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army,20And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.

Then Satan Abyssed

Rev 20: 1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

mark

I'd take it a step further (or perhaps another step in the process). satan knows the mind of man (Adam revealed it to him); and that is, he will sell his birthright (his soul) as a matter of convenience.

27 And the boys got bigger, and E´sau became a man knowing how to hunt, a man of the field, but Jacob a blameless man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac had love for E´sau, because it meant game in his mouth, whereas Re·bek´ah was a lover of Jacob. 29 Once Jacob was boiling up some stew, when E´sau came along from the field and he was tired. 30 So E´sau said to Jacob: “Quick, please, give me a swallow of the red—the red there, for I am tired!” That is why his name was called E´dom. 31 To this Jacob said: “Sell me, first of all, your right as firstborn!” 32 And E´sau continued: “Here I am simply going to die, and of what benefit to me is a birthright?” 33 And Jacob added: “Swear to me first of all!” And he proceeded to swear to him and to sell his right as firstborn to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave E´sau bread and lentil stew, and he went to eating and drinking. Then he got up and went his way. So E´sau despised the birthright. (Gen 25, NWT)

"So there is nothing in the Bible that says Satan is trying to set up a "New World Order" or any other scheme, other than using the nations to destroy God's people. That's what he misleads them for."

So, how is it that the nations will destroy Christians? I think it's much the same way that communism is destroying democracy: from the inside. Christians seem to have no problem destroying themselves because, like Esau, they don't care enough about birthright or inheritance. The watchtower, as a matter of policy, denies that such a birthright exists for the vast majority of Christians. Christians are convinced that they are undeserving and, as such, deny the free gift of life.

Faith is a matter of knowing. Most Christians don't know the value (or at least underestimate the value) of the ransom. The "nations" (as represented primarily by its institutions) convince them that the human death of the messiah is this nice thing that God did for them as long as they work their tail-ends off to earn it. If they understood that everything is a done-deal right now, that they are free to come to Jehovah through Jesus and the kingdom right now, they wouldn't waste so much time and energy beating each other with doctrine; attempting to earn a place in heaven by being "better" than the person next to them.

I am reminded of the man who became so accustomed to his prison cell that, even though it was unlocked and unguarded, he refused to leave.

59 Then he said to another: “Be my follower.” The man said: “Permit me first to leave and bury my father.” 60 But he said to him: “Let the dead bury their dead, but you go away and declare abroad the kingdom of God.” 61 And still another said: “I will follow you, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those in my household.” 62 Jesus said to him: “No man that has put his hand to a plow and looks at the things behind is well fitted for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9, NWT)

It's that resistance to leaving the prison cell of his mind...that tentative "hanging on" to this system...the inability to let go of determining what is "good" and what is "bad," that satan created in the mind of man that keeps him from the kingdom. satan can have some tentative success, from hell or from my living room, if I choose to believe him rather than accept unreservedly the free gift of life.

gus

I will second Grateful's comment, Satan is alive and kicking. I believe he has both hands in the world. I also think that he is ruling this world not in a sense that people worship him or show him loyalty, but rather in that people so easily fall in his trap.

I believe that satan works through making the wrong and sin desirable or irresistable to human, by helping them justify wrong or thinking that they can seek forgiveness later. Back home, people say satan whispers in people's hearts. That of course is not literal. Rather, satan distracts you from doing good and presents opportunities to do bad, all the while making the bad look desirable and less of a sin that it actually is. Ex. getting distracted by thoughts will praying etc.

However, I also hate the way ppl blame everything on Satan. He is to blame yes, but also people. Satan does not force anyone, rather he entices them. We see from his contact with Jesus, he tried to lure Jesus away from God by presenting all the is desirable. Jesus recognized what Satan was trying to do. Most people today don't and consequently fall under Satan's influence.

Hope my :2cents: made sense.:coffeeread:

Salaam, Lou:hibye:

Sure. I explained this briefly on another thread. Revelation 12 talks about how Satan the dragon tried to kill Jesus when he was born, but the "child was caught away to God and to this throne." Well, after Jesus' birth, when did he go to heaven? Forty days after his death, right? At that time (the time of Jesus' death and resurrection), war broke out in heaven, and the devil was hurled down to the earth. It is said that he knew he had a short period of time left (v. 12). After the short period of time was over, there was the "war of the great day of God the Almighty," which was a persecution of Christians that coincided with and followed the destruction of Jerusalem (70 CE). Then Satan was abyssed (20:1-3), and we entered the 1000 (symbolic) year period. That's my understanding of the scriptures, anyway.

I respect your view, Loyalty, but you have to acknowledge that this is not biblical. If you can show me a single scripture that says that Satan does any of this (even when he's not in the abyss), I will retract my statement.

James 4:7...

"Subject yourselves, therefore, to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from YOU. Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU."

How could the Devil flee, unless it was real that he could be close?...if one was to make a place for him?

Matthew 6:13...

" And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’"

Would it be possible to be delivered from the wicked one, if it was not real that the wicked one could be of influence?

Gogh, there is nothing in what you have quoted that doesn't fit right into what I just said. The Devil is out to get Christians. Christians are told to pray for deliverance from his attacks. They are told to oppose the Devil, so that he will flee from them (break off his attacks). Remember what Peter said:

8 Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world. 10 But, after YOU have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called YOU to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish YOUR training, he will make YOU firm, he will make YOU strong. 11 To him be the might forever. Amen. (1 Peter 5:8-11)

Notice the similarity between what Peter says ("take your stand against him") and what James says ("oppose him"). And clearly Peter is talking about suffering under the attacks of the Devil. He is trying to devour them, not take them under his wing.

There is an alternative view about this subject.

If Satan has already been thrown into the LOF, and we are
experiencing the effects of Revelation chapters 21, 22, then there are those who are not in the NJ (they are outside, in the LOF). Where would that leave those who believe Satan has control over them?

If the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled, the LOF is right here......we are either in the NJ or we are in the LOF (Rev. 22:14, 15). I know....my thoughts are too 'far left' for most to even consider, right? :huh:

Hello Donbodo, I meant that Satan doesn't force anybody to commit a sin, rather he convinces and tempts them. He did not force Eve to eat from the tree, rather he deceived her (Genesis 3:1-5). Unfortunately, she fell for his lie. He also tried to tempt Jesus (Luke 4), but of course Jesus did not fall his deception.

The bible mentions that satan leads the world astray. I think that satan does that not by forcing someone astray (James 4:7-if Satan flees when we oppose him, then is he really forcing us?

Satan rather tempting us, making the ungodly or even the secular more and more desirable. (Matt 6:13- pray to resist temptation and be delivered from Satan: he is tempting us). He also blinds people's minds (II Corinthians 4:4) so that they may not be receptive of the truth about God and Jesus (ex. false religion).

I hope this clears up what I said. I am open for discussion (although I have to say that I KNOW that there are many things I still have to learn/study).

Salaam, Lou :coffeeread::hibye:

As I see it, Linda, the abyssing of satan is prior to the lake of fire. That occurs after satan has been let loose from the abyss (for a short while) and misleads many of the chosen. If I'm hearing Donbodo right, he's saying that satan is abyssed and not currently misleading the chosen. They are misleading themselves.

Enjoying this discussion.
gus