Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

While I know that broaching this subject will offer those who believe that all are doomed who don't accept the doctrines of their church an opportunity to discuss the Trinity, recent research does seem to shed some interesting light on the nature of the Holy Spirit.

Is the Spirit a Him or an It?

The Holy Spirit (Ghost or Breath) is the power that faithful Prophets and Apostles used through the ages to perform miracles, heal, drive out demons, and raise the dead. Samson had it, as did EliJah, David, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, and many others. Also, Jesus' Apostles had it, since on their preaching tours they used it to drive out demons and to heal people. So this manifestation of God's Breath (gr. pneuma, heb. ruach) does appear to have been a power from God (an "It").

However, the Holy Spirit that was poured out on Pentecost appears to have been quite different from the Holy Spirit that the Apostles already had, and there's where the Bible starts referring to the Spirit as a "Him." And Jesus called this new manifestation of Spirit "the ParaCletos."

The Greek word ParaCletos (pronounced: para-clay-toss), as found at John 16:7, has been translated many ways. However, the two words that make up this combined word are para (next to) and cletos (caller), so this combination of words appears to refer to an entity that stands next to us and calls out to God on our behalf.

An online search for other meanings of ParaCletos turned up the word Lawyer, which implies someone who represents us legally, but that doesn't seem to be what is implied in this case.

Another view of the meaning of ParaCletos comes from an Aramaic translator, who claims that the word is of Aramaic origin, and means Savior. And I will allow that this quite different translation could be correct, because I am sure that Jesus didn't actually speak the Greek word paraCletos, since he is known to have spoken Aramaic to his Jewish disciples.

One argument that I found online, presented Jesus as being the ParaCletos, because he was called the paraclete at 1 John 2:1, 2. However, the words of Jesus himself at John 16:7 seem to dispel that theory, since he said: ‘For, if I don’t go away, the Representative won’t come to you. But if I go, I’ll send him to you.’ In Greek this reads: ‘εαν γαρ μη απελθω ο παρακλητος ου μη ελθη προς υμας εαν δε πορευθω πεμψω αυτον προς υμας,’ or (literally), ‘if/ever for not I/should/go/off the ParaCletos not not would/come toward you. If/ever but I/should/go I/shall/send him toward you.’ And if Jesus was the ParaCletos, he would simply have said, ‘I will come to you.’

Therefore, it can be assumed that the reference to Jesus being the paralete in First John did not imply that Jesus was the Holy Spirit, but this is a simple reference to the fact that Jesus is also our representative before God.

So, Jesus (at John 16:7-16) strongly implies a personality. And the ParaCletos, which Jesus defines as God’s Holy Spirit or Breath, appears to be something more than the Holy Spirit or Breath which the Apostles used earlier when doing healing and casting out demons.

So, a logical conclusion is that this Representative (ParaCletos), which arrived on Pentecost of 33-C.E., performed in an even more powerful way on behalf of early Christians, and literally called out to God on their behalf, making that new manifestation of God's breath a "him" or an "individual."

Thanks bro.. perhaps I should have stated the last words another way, making it less a conclusion and more a suggestion, because it is just speculation and open to revision.

Hey Jim I think one very Big difference between the OT Holy Spirit and the NT Holy Spirit is found in John 14

In that #1. The Holy Spirit will not just rest upon the person temporarily and sort of come and go but He will dwell in them Forever. #2. It also appears that it requires Christ to die and return to Heaven for His Spirit to indwell each Believer from Pentacost forward.

From Biblegateway NKJV

Jesus Promises Another Helper John 14

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you ( at that time He dwells with them present tense) and will be in you
( Future tense " will be " and now "with you" is changed to " In you ". 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

( He would not leave them Fatherless but, He will come to them as in physically after His resurrection and His Spirit will indwell all Believers after Pentacost )

Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

1 Peter 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

2 Corinth 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.



Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day
( Pentacost ) you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

The Gift of His Peace

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


Then in John 15 we have Christ saying He will send the Holy Spirit.

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.


again in John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Well then, perhaps this is where "the Spirit of Jesus" comes in, and that differs from the "Holy Spirit" the disciples had before Pentecost.

Barnabas, posted some interesting points on the holy spirit here.
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...1#pid58191

Dear people,

My confusion multiplies:confused:

What is man?
What is soul?
What is a Spirit

When I was a muslim it was simple
Man was made of dust that is the body was made up of the elements of the earth
Then Allah filled his spirit and man became a mixture of two things body and spirit

In Islam there is no concept of the third entity Soul

Just body and spirit

spirit leaves the body at death and where it goes noone knows
Or what it is?


Then came along Jehovah's Witnesses

Man became a trinity

Body+Soul+Spirit:read:

Comes the post witness era (present)

back to the begining that is (pure confusion)

Some interesting scriputres for you:

“The last Adam was made a quickening spirit” 1-Corinthians 15:45

meaning a life-giving entity? who can be that except God?

“And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets” 1-Corinthians 14:32?

Who are these spirits?
The intrinsic spirits of the prophets?
Couldnt be you simply cannot subject your own life spirit?




“For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth” 1-Corinthians 14:14

Who is this spirit that prays with Paul he calls it my spirit so it could not be Holy Spirit that makes intercessions for us to God.

It could not be the life-force (watchtower-fame) for it is alive cognizant and spiritual for it prays along with him.


“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries” 1-Corinthians 14:2

Who are these spirits who speak in unknown toungues?

Is the Holy Spirit a multiple Spirit like the spectrum of light?

How can it be if it has one personality? and is spoken of in singular?

“To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues”

Yet another scripture who are these multiple spirits that are given to Christians are these the guardian angels?

Who as Jesus said are always facing His Father in heaven?

Dear Fzubair; Your answer, that it may all refer to angels, may be right. And the problem with all religion (Islam or Christian) is that people try to turn things they don't understand into doctrines.

The Greek word pneuma and the Hebrew word ruach just mean breath or wind. In English, we have confused the whole matter by translating them both into the Latin word (which also means breath), spirit. However, the Bible's use of the word(s) isn't consistent in its meaning, because sometime it implies breath or wind, sometimes it implies an attitude, sometimes it implies an unseen force, and sometimes it implies things that simply aren't explained... but of course, lack of explainability doesn't stop foolish men from coming up with doctrines.

At Hebrews 1:7 Paul wrote, "He makes His angels spirits." And this implies that they aren't spirits to begin with. So, is God a spirit, and if so, how does this differ from Holy Spirit, and how does that differ from what was poured out on Christians at Pentecost?

I'd have to do a little research to find it, but one of the ancient prophets spoke of a spirit that spoke to God in the heavens and proposed sending a false prophecy to an ancient king to mislead him. And in this case, the implication of the word seems to be that this spirit was something other than an angel.

Also, by what power did the ancient non-Israelite prophet BalaAm receive his inspiration?

You point out the simplicity of the teachings of Islam. But realize that all "Christian" religions also have their "simple" explanations of these things. It's when we realize that we don't know all that we once thought we did, that true wisdom is starting to overtake us.

The Bible doesn't use the personal pronoun "She" when speaking of God, the angels, or Holy Spirit.

God not would be palatable to the israel people in any other way other then as a he, regardless of the truth about gender as it relates to God. Imagine "God, she is divine" compared to "God, he is divine". Lets imagine you'r moses and you are facing a stubborn people that already is prone to twisting, disobeying and missing the intention of Gods divine teachings and that is very much shauvinistic up until and beyond the first coming of Christ Jesus.

Jesus was much more accepting of woman, and whos resurrection was first witnessed by woman and in turn those woman were the first to relate to the male disciples that Jesus was resurrected which for Shauvinistic israel people is very humbling. Not seeing their master resurrected only after the woman do who were supposed to be lesser beings because of the adam & eve story, must have been very humbling for the apostles.

A few documents that were red by several factions of early christians (before the bible) tell that Peter utterly rejected the possibility that he should listen to a woman.
So it appears to me that God is progressively revealing more wisdom to us as our wisdom in God also increases. It was the Israel people who primarily followed their divine law because of a fear of it or its giver. Many christians naturally followed the same divine law by their understanding of it and not through fear of it.

Hi Jim,
What is your view as to the reason for Jesus having to ascend into heaven for He, the H.S., the paraclete, to be free to come and assist mankind?
Derek

Hi Derek. At Acts 1:5, Jesus said that his disciples would be baptized in it. So, similar to the visible outpouring of God’s Spirit or Breath on Jesus at his baptism (which appears to be the point of his anointing and receiving special powers), the outpouring of Holy Spirit on Pentecost appears to be the point where the disciples were anointed, given special powers, and it is when they were born from above (John 3:3). And Acts 1:4 says that God sends it. So, perhaps Jesus had to present the value of his perfect sacrifice to God in heaven before God would send this spirit. Just speculation.

Jer. 31:22 KJV
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Jer. 31:22,31-35
amplified bible

22. How long will you waver and hesitate [to return], O you backsliding daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing in the land [of Israel]: a female shall compass ( protect) a man.


31. Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32. Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, says the Lord.

33. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law within them, and on their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

34. And they will no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they will all know Me [recognize, understand, and be acquainted with Me], from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will [seriously] remember their sin no more.

35. Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day and the fixed order of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Who stirs up the sea's roaring billows or stills the waves when they roar--the Lord of hosts is His name:

My favorite scripture of all time. I repeated this to myself over and over throughout my life..

Proverbs 3: 5 " Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

so I let all my own thoughts empty as to what I thought the scriptures said. I prayed for Him to explain them to me. I did this because I fear God, fear hurting and grieving His heart, going after my own thoughts. I thought of how mad He became at the Israelites not waiting on Him to speak and reveal truths to them, so they were punished severely, and had to keep on wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. Could leaning on our own understanding be making us prevent God's Kingdom from coming, because we are being like the Israelites, not waiting and not trusting God to write His laws in our hearts.
Proverbs 9: 10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

Proverbs 3: 5-19

5. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

8. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9. Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10. So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11. My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

12. For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

19. The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

(She) IS the Tree of Life

Have you ever read the book of Wisdom? Was it kept out on purpose?

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom6.htm

Wisdom is a she. I have met her face to face as she looked into her mirror, she stood and slowly turned around to face me and she smiled and hugged me. She is the Holy Spirit. She speaks to me from within me. She is the helper. For Wisdom is mobile beyond all motion, and she penetrates and pervades all things by reason of her purity.

For she is an aura of the might of God and a pure effusion of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nought that is sullied enters into her.

For she is the refulgence of eternal light, the spotless mirror of the power of God, the image of his goodness.

And she, who is one, can do all things, and renews everything while herself perduring; And passing into holy souls from age to age, she produces friends of God and prophets.

For there is nought God loves, be it not one who dwells with Wisdom.

For she is fairer than the sun and surpasses every constellation of the stars. Compared to light, she takes precedence;

for that, indeed, night supplants, but wickedness prevails not over Wisdom.

see why the Watchtower Society wants to get rid of the Holy Spirit in their baptismal vows? They have taken Her place, and now they give their worship to a spirit directed organization....they can never partake from the tree of life, and dwell with true Wisdom, and they have robbed God.

Love,
New Heart

Hi Jim,
Thanks for that. I think it makes sense and fits in with Hebrews.