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This is Youngs version.

24 `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.
27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Now I know there are many diverse idea about this scripture and maybe it has several fullfilments.

But what if the WT was not all wrong on its understanding?
455 BC plus (7 times 69) 483, would drop us off around 29 AD.

The causing of sacrifice and present (gift offering) to cease during the midweek would tie in with Jesus' death after three and a half years, which would suggest that the counting of these days as years has validity.

What does this mean? And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week. The WT suggests this is the Abrahamic covenant, though they are a bit wooly as to what that is.

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...tid=4913#9
http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...p?tid=5088

As mentioned in the previous subject, there were four promises and two covenants to Abraham. The second covenant was that Jehovah would be the God of Abraham's physical offspring. The covenant was ratified by cutting, in this case circumcision.

The covenant of Abraham's offspring having Jehovah as their god was strengthened or lengthened for the next three and a half years then it ended, as the uncircumcised were allowed in to be Jehovah's people.
I am sure an understanding of this, helped the Christians in Acts 15 to appreciate that the covenant although extended had indeed ended.
All could now become a people of God.
No one needed the covenant sign any longer to prove he belonged to God.

So in this instance I think the WT arrived at the right conclusion.

Note however the promises to Abraham have no end,
especially the last one.

Deathbed Testimony
of Ron Wyatt, the Discoverer of
The Ark Of The Covenant
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=363

http://www.returnofthenephilim.com/RonWyattTestimony.html

Has the Ark of the Covenant been found?

"An archeologist who claims to have found the Ark of the Covenant directly below the crucifixion site of Jesus Christ has died after giving a deathbed interview to WorldNetDaily. Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Ark of the Covenant, the crucifixion site of Jesus Christ, and more have been the subject of controversial claims made by an archeologist who spent much of his life documenting sites and events from the Bible.

Ron Wyatt died after a lengthy battle with cancer last Wednesday, but his quest to provide information that would lead to more people accepting the teachings of the Bible continues at Wyatt Archeological Research, a non-profit, non-denominational organization in Tennessee. Reached just before his death, the telephone interview with Wyatt was to last only a few minutes because of his very weak condition. He actually spoke for nearly an hour. A few days later, Wyatt succumbed to the disease.

The evidence of the various finds Wyatt claimed to have made has been debated by religious leaders, scholars and lay people, for at least a decade. There are many who believe his findings are genuine, and there are a few who are not so willing to accept his claims.

According to Wyatt, he was able to physically locate the Ark of the Covenant, the container for the original tablets of the Ten Commandments, with the Mercy Seat intact on the top. It was found in a chamber just outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem about 20 feet below what Wyatt also claimed was the actual site of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Wyatt said he found an earthquake crack directly below where the cross would have been. It extends down through the rock to the resting place of the Mercy Seat atop the Ark of the Covenant, he told WorldNetDaily. The blood of Christ would have flowed through that crack after his death and after his side was pierced by a soldier's spear.

The site of the crucifixion appears to have evidence that it was once enclosed in a first century building, apparently a church. The site includes a large round stone which perfectly fits the Garden Tomb -- accepted by many as the place from which the body of Christ rose from the dead.

The Bible teaches the concept of sacrifice of animals, symbolic of the actual blood sacrifice Christ would make. The act of Christ, regarded by some as the great High Priest, permitting himself to be sacrificed and placing his own blood upon the Mercy Seat was the great and final act in the process of blood sacrifice, according to the writings of Wyatt.

Wyatt believed that the Ark of the Covenant, along with other sacred objects from the first Temple in Jerusalem, were all secreted away just prior to the entrance of the Babylonians into the city about 600 years before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. There are many tunnels beneath Jerusalem even to this day. These most sacred objects were protected in a chamber and the entrance was sealed and hidden.

"When Christ died, the earth quaked. The rock was split right below His cross and this crevice extended right down into the hidden chamber which contained the undefiled 'earthly' Throne of God -- the Ark with its Mercy Seat," explained Wyatt in one of his research letters. "After He was dead, when the centurion stuck his spear into Christ's side and pierced His spleen, the blood and water came out, falling down through that crack and was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat."

Wyatt explained that in the former Temple service, the high priest sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice on the Mercy Seat. Wyatt said Christ, as the great High Priest, was the only one who could physically sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat. It was an act of God that everything was in the right place, and that there was an earthquake which enabled Christ to spill his own blood onto the Mercy Seat in fulfillment of this ancient rite, he explained.

Wyatt did not make any claims of grandeur, nor did he claim to be a prophet. He said his only role was to be a willing servant. "God has a way of communicating his wishes to people, and I'm not the only one able to do that so I don't flatter myself to think that I'm something special. I was there, I was willing, so therefore God allowed me this privilege. There are others who are in communication with him. There are others who are familiar with this material who will see that it is presented," Wyatt told WorldNetDaily by phone just before his death, indicating that more of his evidence and findings will soon be made public. It was back on Jan. 6, 1982 when Ron Wyatt realized what he had found during the excavation of the Ark of the Covenant.

"I just went from stunned to more stunned I guess," he described . "When I started making the excavation I wasn't looking for the Ark of the Covenant. I had no idea or intent to be looking for the crucifixion site, so as I proceeded with the excavation and found this crucifixion site, it was a thrill and a happy set of circumstances, and I didn't make the connection with the blood on the mercy seat until I actually saw it."

He said the significance of the find took on a new meaning when he actually found the crack which extended from the Mercy Seat all the way up through solid rock to the location he had found above where the crucifixion took place.

Wyatt claimed that he was authorized to make his excavations by the Antiquities Department, but that bureaucrats within that agency insisted that his findings must be kept secret. He was told that Jewish extremists might view the discovery as a sign that it was time to rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem. The Muslim Dome of the Rock now sits on the site that Jewish fundamentalists believe must one day be destroyed and a new Jewish temple built.

Wyatt has made public a significant amount of his research and findings, but he has withheld certain documents and photographs to comply with the agreement he made with Israeli officials. His refusal to provide everything resulted in criticism from some.

The day after the death of Wyatt, one detractor sent an e-mail to WorldNetDaily saying, "The world has lost one of the most colorful charlatans of all time." He predicted that nothing will ever come of the discoveries and even claimed that Wyatt is not with God now because he must account for his lies.

"There's nothing can be done to prevent ridicule that I'm aware of. I don't think it would be appropriate to deny people the opportunity of using ridicule because I think that's part of showing their true character," Wyatt told WorldNetDaily of those who have attacked his claims. This discovery of the Ark of the Covenant and the crucifixion site are more important to the non-Christians than to the believing Christians, according to Wyatt. He believes the discovery will help to bring people of other faiths to Christ "They've been taught something else all their life. So God is doing this show-and-tell through these revelations and these discoveries to prove to them real quick that the Bible is historically accurate and divinely inspired," Wyatt explained. He quoted from Jeremiah 16:19-22 predicting unbelievers will come from all parts of the earth to learn of the discoveries.

"Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods," quoted Wyatt.

"This last revelation is for the inhabitants of the earth who don't have a clue, as well as for those of us who do have a clue and have been commissioned by Christ to reach out to help bring these people who don't have a clue into the fold. So these are tools that God has given the believers to strengthen their faith and to reach out with. They are tools that will be extremely effective in these the last pouring out to the entire population, all inhabitants of the earth," he explained.

Wyatt has been involved in a number of significant archeological studies of biblical sites and artifacts. These have included Noah's Ark, the crossing of the Red Sea by Moses, Mount Sinai, Sodom and Gomorrah, and others. Nothing else has the significance of the Ark of the Covenant and its tie to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, he explained.

"My personal assessment is that this is the culmination of the whole plan of salvation. I believe it's the finishing off and the final proof and evidence for what has happened here on this planet. And I think that it's being presented at a time just before probation's closed while people can still decide to go along with God," Wyatt stated.

WorldNetDaily made contact with sources within the U.S. intelligence community that have been reliable in past investigations. Experts on both Israeli and Muslim politics and beliefs were contacted to determine their assessment on the impact of Wyatt's discoveries.

Both sources expressed disbelief that the Israeli government wanted to hide the discovery for the reason they gave Wyatt. Instead both agreed that it was likely the Israelis are concerned that when Jews learn of the connection of the crucifixion site with the Ark of the Covenant there could be large conversions which would threaten Jewish control of the government, assuming that the discoveries are true. Neither source was aware of the discoveries previously. WorldNetDaily was not able to convey that assessment to Wyatt prior to his death for his reaction.

Wyatt did say that he did not expect the Ark of the Covenant would ever be removed from its current resting placed. The access tunnel used by Wyatt's archeological team has been sealed. The pictures and videos of the find are what he said would soon be shown worldwide.

"The blood and all of that part will be shown, all of that, on video. The only thing that will be shown typically that people will be able to have a look at and maybe touch, you know I don't know what the restrictions will be on that, and that's the tables of stone," said Wyatt, referring to the tablets containing the Ten Commandments found inside the Ark of the Covenant itself.

Wyatt said he did not believe the Jews will ever successfully rebuild the Temple because they would want to resume the practice of blood sacrifice within the Temple, something that he says God would not permit to happen. [/color]"I believe that if they do set about to do a Temple thing, it will be part of Satan's deception," he added.

He said that when the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple furnishings were moved to the hidden chamber, that location became the Temple of the Lord, or the Holy of Holies. It remained untouched and undefiled so that Christ could complete his ultimate sacrifice. He is confident they remain where he found them. He does not believe they have been secreted away.

"Let me say this, and this is a touchy point and I try to avoid it. There's some 14 to 16 individuals that have died because they have tried to in some way to manipulate this," he explained without providing the details. "Some have had to do with withdrawing a permit and others have had to do with, shall we say, trying to actually get in there and move the furnishings. So I believe that God has adequately demonstrated, at least to me, that He is not going to allow this to be moved. I do know this, and that is that nothing will happen to this that is not in God's plan because this is the most important part of the plan of salvation that has been carried out. This is it, the heart and soul of it. There's no way he's going to allow people, demons, or any other forces to interfere with it being done exactly as he wants it done," he stated.

The crucifixion site was found on the side of the Golgotha hill, or Place of the Skull just outside the old north wall of Jerusalem, not far from the Garden Tomb. It was discovered under many feet of soil with actual holes in the rock where crosses were placed, and niches in the rock wall behind where three signs were placed. The large circular stone used to cover the garden tomb was also located there, and it was all surrounded by the foundation of a first century building. The central, main cross hole has an earthquake crack beside it.

Photographic evidence was obtained, and then the site was covered back over with 12 feet of dirt and a garden established. Wyatt says it was landscaped to avoid controversy. The entrance to the system of caves and tunnels, found by the Wyatt team in the cliff wall was also sealed over. In conclusion, Wyatt was asked to describe his spiritual growth since his discoveries. What is the difference in his gospel understanding before the discoveries and since?

"Basically, getting to know God and complying with his required character changes and all of that. I was experiencing those things, and of course I had a hunger and a thirst. I had a big curiosity. To be perfectly honest that may have outweighed the other consideration and then the difference between what I felt then and now is I believed what the Bible said. I believed what it says to be true, that's the Authorized King James by the way. However, now I know that what it says is true," he concluded.

Wyatt added that it has been his role to do more than just dig up interesting artifacts. He accepted the added responsibility to explain the religious significance of the items he found. The Wyatt Archeological Research group maintains a small museum in Tennessee where the evidence and work of Ron Wyatt can be examined and studied. The death of Mr. Wyatt is not expected to stop the effort of telling the world about the findings, according to a spokesman.

WorldNetDaily has examined extensive evidence regarding the various claims and discoveries made by Wyatt for several weeks. Several critics have been found who have voiced their opinion that the work of Wyatt Archaeological Research is fraudulent, but evidence to support those charges cannot be found.

The evidence is sufficient to conclude that Wyatt's team conducted the claimed archeological digs and investigations. WorldNetDaily is not qualified to determine the value of the evidence. Wyatt was given a deathbed opportunity to either reaffirm or recant his claims. He chose to reaffirm all that he has claimed without hesitation."

Dan 9:24(NIV) - "Seventy 'sevens' [a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [b] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to
anoint the most holy.


http://www.returnofthenephilim.com

Freyd why not join the conference room we started to discuss Ron Wyatt last night.

vicky

P.S. Took off the bold and colour so your link would work.

So it appears that the first three and a half years in the culmination of Daniel 9 related to the finalising of Jesus' ministry, then the second three and a half years of preaching ended in the acceptance of the Gentiles.

Revelation..........there were three and a half years preaching by those (like Jesus) who were destined for heaven, then there was another three and a half years preaching by and for the rest of the spiritual Israelites.
Then as Revelation says the spiritual Gentiles will be called (out of every nation tribe people and tongue), just as the physical Gentiles (Cornelias) were called seven years after the beginning of the preaching of Jesus.

Rev. is the parallel.
Three and a half years of the preaching of the christs; the two witnesses, then their death, so the sacrifice and gift offering ceases.
Another three and a half years of preaching by those who are the rest of the spiritual Israelites to others of who become spiritual Israel, then at the end of the second three and a half years there is an influx that brings in the spiritual Gentiles out of every nation, tribe, people and tongue. The great trib/plagues does this.

Daniel nine .

It has a fulfilment within God's people
during the "latter days" , and also the "end" time.

I don't know its (entire and exactly) explanation .
And I could observe that nobody on earth doesn't know it today !
It is expected to be released in a short time as the Father wants .

Patience and a lot of study and prayer is required.

The door of "searching" is opened for all .

To whom will be discovered , it means that to him is given glory !

Proverbs 25
2. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

Let you all have success in this "race" !

rus v.

Well it appears Dan 9 had its first fulfillment in the time of Christ.

Not the whole of the book of Daniel was sealed.

Alexander was supposedly shown the prophesies about him in Daniel, and thus spared Jerusalem.

vicky

Hi Vickster

I don't see how "he" in verse 27 can be a reference to the Messiah:

(1) The last character mentioned is the prince (or governor) who destroys the Temple. After Jesus' death, the next major event was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Roman prince Titus.

(2) It is Titus who "causeth sacrifice and present to cease", and is the one who "is making desolate" by "the wing of abominations". I would seriously question the idea of the Messiah coming in upon abominations... but the Roman armies would certainly be considered an abomination of desolation, since they worshipped idolatrous ensigns, and even placed them against the Temple.

So I'd suggest that the passage is referring to the Messiah up until the middle of verse 26, and then it focuses on the governor who destroys the Temple and Jerusalem.

This is validated by Jesus' own words:

""Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe) then those in Judea -- let them flee to the mounts;" (Mathew 24:15,16, Youngs)

Clearly Jesus was NOT the abomination of desolation... he was referring to the Roman armies, which was the trigger for those in Judea to flee to the mountains.

To me, the simplest explanation is that Daniel 9 was completely fulfilled in the 1st century (with no need for a second fulfillment):

- Messiah cut off.

- City and holy place desolated by Titus.

- Romans have mastery over the Jews for 7 years (between 66-73AD), with Titus causing the daily sacrifice to cease at the "half of the week" in 70AD. (During this period the Jews held the fortress of Masada, which was only captured in 73AD.)

- Titus' army came on "the wing of abominations", as confirmed by Jesus in Mathew 24 as the trigger to flee Judea.

Incidentally, I'd suggest most translations don't accurately reflect the original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27. If you look at the Interlinear, it appears it's not a question of "he" (who I'd suggest is the one who comes in on the wing of abominations, ie. Titus) keeping the covenant in force, but of having mastery over the covenant ones.

Please see the Hebrew Interlinear here:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...f/dan9.pdf

Here is the root word, which also lists its uses in scripture:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...1396&t=KJV

For example, it is used in Genesis for the waters prevailing.

I would suggest the prophecy is referring to the Romans prevailing over the Jews, which culminated in their desolation.

This also makes sense in the context of Daniel's prayer, which was exclusively about his people Israel, and the desolated nature of the city of Jerusalem.

The 70 weeks of years was a contrast to the 70 years of desolation the Jews had just faced.

In that 70 weeks, they were going to witness the restoration of Jerusalem, the arrival of their Messiah, and then the destruction of their city again at the hands of a people to come (which Daniel's earlier visions suggested the Romans).

Just to add:

Only the final vision of Daniel was sealed up, for the "time of the end".

But Daniel is told when that "time of the end" would happen:

"After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these."

I would suggest to you that this happened in 73AD, when the Jews were scattered by the Romans, their Temple and city being destroyed 3 1/2 years earlier.

Also, if Daniel's final vision was sealed up, then why wasn't Revelation's prophecy also sealed up if it has not yet commenced fulfillment?

"And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev 22:10)

As you know, I suggest this is because Revelation BEGAN to be fulfilled in the 1st century - hence, no need to seal it up.

I don't see anything in Daniel that implies his prophecies have any more than one fulfillment, and for me at least, the same applies for Revelation.

rus v,

I believe that there can only be one fulfillment of the 70 weeks.

The Angel explained how the 70 weeks would end:

Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.


in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin

There is only one bible event which actually accomplishes this:


Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.

and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace - transgression terminated!

But more specifically from what is the transgression terminated?

"they will collect out from his kingdom"

"determined upon your people and upon your holy city"

The Watchtower Society is therefore completely out to lunch in their interpretation.


In Christ

abe

The Watchtower Society claim to be Jesus Christ's Kingdom immediately before the conclusion of this system of things.

Please think carefully about the reasons why the Watchtower Society do not want anyone to realise that the end of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel CH9 will be fulfilled on themselves.


In Christ

abe

Immediately before Jesus Christ's return the temple will be profaned:

2 Thessalonians 2
4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

This needs to be terminated to time indefinite and the temple restored to its right condition.

Daniel 8
“How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?” 14 So he said to me: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.”


Daniel 9
24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.


and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

the holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.

The Apostle Paul helps us understand that immediately before Jesus Christs return the temple will NOT be in a right condition.


If the 70 weeks prophecy is to terminate transgression, and bring in righteousness for times indefinite then it does not have a fulfillment prior to Jesus Christs return.


In Christ

abe

Abe, not that I care anymore about this stuff, but since I had it in my archives, have you seen this?

THE 20TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES
AND THE "SEVENTY WEEKS" OF DANIEL
© Carl Olof Jonsson, Göteborg, Sweden, 1989. Revised 1999, 2003.

http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/engli...xerxes.htm

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Jesh,

Thanks.

Carl Olof Jonsson obviously knows more about history than I do.

It is too much for me to go and verify all that stuff.

He does seem to expose some Watchtower cunning though:

In Christ

abe

A theory that I ran across a couple of years ago and have been working through to validate in Daniel and Revelation, is that there is a gap in time between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week – of thousands of years - so that the entire 70th week period is future and that it coincides with the apparent 7 year period rule of the beast image of Revelation that is comprised of a first 3.5 year period - during which the two witnesses do their work - and a second 3.5 year period - where the “remaining ones of her seed” flee to the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time.

I posted a graphic timeline of this theory on another thread but it didn’t get any comment, so I don’t know if people thought it was too far out - or if they didn’t get the gist of what the timeline was trying to show. It was possibly a confusing graph given all the details it tried to capture in one place to show the correlations of Daniel and Revelation.

I know that most people think the seventy weeks are past, but in my mind there are too many loose ends with that explanation - some of which have been mentioned in this thread. It seems to me that the seventieth week is speaking of the End Game of the system of things, that coincides with the general theme of Daniel 2:44-45, and not the theory that the WT proposes. If the “he” of Daniel that “brings sacrifice and gift offering to cease” is that same “he” that causes the covenant to begin with, then the seventieth week appears to be a starting point of some other "covenant", not an extension of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural Jews for 3.5 years.

This idea is more evident in other translations.

Daniel 9:27 (NWT)
27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.” (Daniel 9:27) (this wording indicates that some sort of "covenant" is already in effect)

But look at some other renderings that sounds like the “covenant” is not an extension of some covenant such as the Law covenant, but a starting point of some sort of other covenant:

Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)
“ He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

Daniel 9:27 (New American Standard Bible)
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

So I think the “he” is the yet future antichrist, the king of fierce countenance, the little horn, the beast image. If anyone is up for taking a look at this theory and discuss I could re-post the Scriptural details and the graphic timeline here for discussion.


v r

vr,

I am thinking very much on the same lines as you.

The "he" allows the constant feature (covenant) to remain intact and then removes it and replaces with a disgusting thing.

The "he" is probably referring to the man of lawlessness which I am convinced is ruling with the wild beast of Revelation.

This I believe is a milestone measurable event.

It is not an easy thing to explain in writing or even with graphics.

I made a long video series which speaks directly to this.

I tried to make it in such a way that perhaps some people not very familiar with scriptures might also understand.

It is called "The Unforgivable Sin" and can be found in the links in my signature below.

I invite you or anyone that wishes, to watch it.


In Christ

abe