08-22-2009, 05:54 AM
Hello again brother and sisters!:)
I hope all is well with everyone. I was just looking over some older threads ans saw a comment from my friend Jim that I hadn't notice before about the Ressurection,... (WT style). Anyway, perhaps we can go over what the WT teaches about the res. and show how wrong they are on that subject as they are on so many others that we have discovered. I will also underline where WT tries to 'ead you into thinking a statement must be true just by the way they phrase a sentence.
My friend KVR, (Jim) Stated: You're right... you almost have to be reprogrammed after being a Witness, because you bought into wrong conclusion after wrong conclusion so many times that it's hard to cut the tangle of interwoven conclusions. I've gone through it, and am still going through it. Yet, they brought me to where I am, and I'm grateful.
We have come to see everything as happening either to "the anointed" or to "the rest of the dead," which really isn't true. In fact, if it weren't for Revelation 7 and the symbolisms of the "anointed priesthood," I would doubt that there was a special group that is going to heaven to be the "Lamb's Bride."
The first actual prophecy in the Bible about the resurrection was spoken by a woman, HanNah, the mother of SamuEl, for in the Septuagint it is written that she said (1 Samuel 2:8):
‘He resurrects the needy from the ground,

And He raises the poor from the dirt,

To seat them with the mighty of the people,

Where a throne of glory they’ll inherit.'
Now, a programmed Witness would immediately assume that she was speaking of "the anointed," when you can clearly see that she wasn't.
One of the tangle of interwoven doctrines that most Witnesses believes, which leads then to this conclusion is based on the partly-spurious scripture (it doesn't read like the most ancient Bible's rendering of these verses) at Revelation 20:4-6, which correctly reads:
'And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years… this is the first resurrection. And those that have a part in the first resurrection are blest and holy, because the second death doesn’t have any power over them. For they will be Priests of God and the Anointed One, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.'
discipile: None in the Cafe can factually state what bible 'correctly' reads these passages correctly.
Here are a coupole that I like better.
Revelation 20:4-6 (Revelation 20:4-6 (Wycliffe New Testament)
4 And I saw seats, and they sat on them, and doom was given to them. And the souls of men beheaded for the witnessing of Jesus, and for the word of God, and them that worshipped not the beast, neither the image of it, neither took the character of it in their foreheads, neither in their hands [or in their hands]. And they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 And others of dead men lived not [The others of dead lived not], till a thousand years were ended. This is the first again-rising.
6 Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the first again-rising. In these men the second death hath not power [In these the second death hath no power]; but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6 (Young's Literal Translation)
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
Anyone who is not in the first res., will be those who must face the Great Wht. Thrown Judgement. Annyone not written in the book of life are thrown away.
Anyone who was/is born only once must die twice, but those who have been born twice will only need to die once. (They are already judged at calvary at the Bema seat of Christ).
6Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev. 19:1 AFTER THIS I heard what sounded like a mighty shout of a great crowd in heaven, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! Salvation and glory (splendor and majesty) and power (dominion and authority) [belong] to our God!
matthew 18:3And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Do only 144000, (believing Jews) have these qualities, the simple qualitys of a Christian? No of course not.
Remember know, Ish 1:18 was a prophicy of how the blood of Jesus would cleans us of the sins we commit, Hebrews 10:10. We stay sanctified via 1 John 1:9., (Acts 26:18). We will only be perfect when its all said and done. God understands this. He understands the 144000 ....('incuding us') were at not time near perfect. But by faith we are covered by the blood of his Son, Romans 5:1,9. These go to heaven.
I think 1thessalonians 3:13, ;4:13-18 is speaking about them comming back to greet us in the air. Then after the last 3 years of the tribulartion is over and after the dust has settled from Aramgedden. then their/ our spirits (in a twenkling of an eye) return to receoive their /our ressurrected bodies,
What else did Jesus say that helps us to see that every born again Christian, (the majority of the congregation) spirit goes to heaven
via
jn. 6:40 returns. 1 Jn.3:7
1 cor 1:30
jn.3:3-5
matthew 23:13
My friend Jim continued:Everyone knows that this "first resurrection" is speaking of "the Anointed," and the spurious passage that speaks of "the rest of the dead" is talking about all the rest of the [u]righteous and unrighteous (such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David) who receive an earthly resurrection.[/u] Kind of silly when you think about it.
However, if you believe the order of events in the Revelation (and programmed Witnesses can't), you find the following sequence of events has already happened in Chapter 19:
Revelation 19:1-4, the destruction of Babylon the Great
Revelation 19:6-9, the marriage of the Lamb
Revelation verse 11 through the end of Chapter 19, the battle of Armageddon.
So, "the marriage of the Lamb" has happened before the resurrections.
disciple?:read:
Jim continues> I could go on and on with scriptures from the writings of the Prophets to prove that those faithful who are resurrected on the earth receive "crowns," but the programmed would never see it that way. As the result, I try to keep my opinions to myself and try to stick to just what the Bible says. However, you insisted.
Your friend and brother,
Jim
disciple:Did the faithful men and women of old have a heavenl hope?
disciple: Did the faithful men and women of old admit that they were strangers to heaven or to earth? The WatchTower wrongly teaches that these men and women were strangers to heaven, that is, they only expected to have an earthly hope. Be resurrected to live here on earth. They were not entertaining a heavenly hope when they died. Let us read to see if the Bible corrects the Watchtwer’s teaching on this subject....
Hebrews 11:13 NIV “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.â€
We read here that they were not to be aliens and strangers to heaven. They were strangers on the earth. The faithful of old knew their hope was heaven! Tell your acquaintance that God is the God of the living, not the dead! The Bible also doesn’t support the WatchTower teaching on this subject. This Bible passage alone testifies that all imperfect, yet obedient believers go to heaven.
Were They Longing For An Earthly Hope Or A Heavenly Hope?
Hebrews 11:16 NIV “Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.â€((see Rev. 21:1-4,10,24).
The indisputable fact is that all men whose hearts are toward God have this city awaiting them (heaven). Hebrews 11:13-16 does not support the WatchTower’s teachings....Matthew 8:11 Proves the WT deceitfulness as 'who' will nine with Jesus.....
"I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
I am looking forward to seeing a great crowd of Old faithful saints at that table.
The spirit behind the Watchtower teaches that there is no heavenly hope in an effort to drive a wedge of division and promote a clergy-type class among the brothers and sisters of the congregation. The Watchtower causes the average Jehovah’s Witness to believe that he is just like the men and women of old: unworthy to receive a heavenly hope. As we have seen, this is pure blasphemy, because each obedient believer does have a heavenly hope. Whenever the Jehovah’s Witness tries to tell you the great multitude is to live on earth, show them Revelation 19:1. And remind them that those mentioned in Revelation 19:1 are not ‘ angels.’ They are believers waiting to come back to paridise earth and receive their glorified bodies.
Their 1942 Emphatic Diaglott containing the Original Greek Text uses the term “great crowd.†Also look at Revelation 6:11, Revelation 7:9,11, Revelation 3:4-5 and Revelation 7:9,15 (as to ‘location’).
Where Does Jesus Say Each Obedient Believer Will Go?
Ask the Jehovah’s Witness, “Where did Jesus tell us the dead go when they rise from the dead?†('from Genesis to our day, He also said two would be on the house top and one would be taken. I think that is refering to rapture. Its sure great to be a 'Christian and be able to dicuss these subjects that have no bearing on our salvation but unlike the cults we can agree to 'disagree with a smile.) :friends:
Mark 12:25 NIV “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.â€
In Jesus own words, each obedient believer has this hope that is promised us in Revelation 19:1. He is very clear in stating this fact that all obedient believers will go to heaven, (we are comming bach though).
Matthew 22:30 NIV “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.â€
We see that Jesus did not put any limits on the number of people going to heaven. Did He mention anything about 144000?
Luke 20:36 NIV “And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.â€
Ask the Jehovah’s Witness, “Isn’t an obedient believer God’s child?†J
Job also prayed that God would remember him in Job 14:13. Job also
had this same hope that those men and women of faith mentioned in Hebrews 11:13-16 had, a ‘heavenly hope.’ They went from waiting in paradise (Luke 23:24) to being taken to heaven at Jesus’ resurrection! (See Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 9:28, Heb. 12:22,23 and Eph. 4:8 explains Hebrews 11:40. In other words, they had to wait on Jesus, so that it can be said that all are in Christ, the fulfillment of God’s promise, (John 11:25-26). Jesus led them in His train (Hebrews 2:10-13).
Galatians 3:14 “He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.†( Acts 1:8, Eph. 5:18, 1Jn.4:4,15."
There is no difference, no distinction between brothers and sisters within the congregation (Romans 3:22). All true believers are sons of God and have a heavenly hope, as Jesus himself clearly explained.
Ephesians 2:15 NIV “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.â€
I think we all know God purposed a kingdom of priests. He desired to have sons of God to fill the earth and to declare his name worldwide (Exodus 19:6). He began this with the people of Israel, but they failed in their calling. They lost sight as to who their neighbors were. Jehovah remedied this problem (Hosea 2:23, 1 Peter 2:10 and Rom. 9:29; 12:1-2).
He sets each one of us aside, as sanctified, to live godly life styles from the unholy world around us, (1Jn2:15, James 4:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).
This was long but I hope we all can gain a bit more about the end times and what our Father has instore for those who love Him.
disciple
I hope all is well with everyone. I was just looking over some older threads ans saw a comment from my friend Jim that I hadn't notice before about the Ressurection,... (WT style). Anyway, perhaps we can go over what the WT teaches about the res. and show how wrong they are on that subject as they are on so many others that we have discovered. I will also underline where WT tries to 'ead you into thinking a statement must be true just by the way they phrase a sentence.
My friend KVR, (Jim) Stated: You're right... you almost have to be reprogrammed after being a Witness, because you bought into wrong conclusion after wrong conclusion so many times that it's hard to cut the tangle of interwoven conclusions. I've gone through it, and am still going through it. Yet, they brought me to where I am, and I'm grateful.
We have come to see everything as happening either to "the anointed" or to "the rest of the dead," which really isn't true. In fact, if it weren't for Revelation 7 and the symbolisms of the "anointed priesthood," I would doubt that there was a special group that is going to heaven to be the "Lamb's Bride."
The first actual prophecy in the Bible about the resurrection was spoken by a woman, HanNah, the mother of SamuEl, for in the Septuagint it is written that she said (1 Samuel 2:8):
‘He resurrects the needy from the ground,

And He raises the poor from the dirt,

To seat them with the mighty of the people,

Where a throne of glory they’ll inherit.'
Now, a programmed Witness would immediately assume that she was speaking of "the anointed," when you can clearly see that she wasn't.
One of the tangle of interwoven doctrines that most Witnesses believes, which leads then to this conclusion is based on the partly-spurious scripture (it doesn't read like the most ancient Bible's rendering of these verses) at Revelation 20:4-6, which correctly reads:
'And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years… this is the first resurrection. And those that have a part in the first resurrection are blest and holy, because the second death doesn’t have any power over them. For they will be Priests of God and the Anointed One, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.'
discipile: None in the Cafe can factually state what bible 'correctly' reads these passages correctly.
Here are a coupole that I like better.
Revelation 20:4-6 (Revelation 20:4-6 (Wycliffe New Testament)
4 And I saw seats, and they sat on them, and doom was given to them. And the souls of men beheaded for the witnessing of Jesus, and for the word of God, and them that worshipped not the beast, neither the image of it, neither took the character of it in their foreheads, neither in their hands [or in their hands]. And they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 And others of dead men lived not [The others of dead lived not], till a thousand years were ended. This is the first again-rising.
6 Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the first again-rising. In these men the second death hath not power [In these the second death hath no power]; but they shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6 (Young's Literal Translation)
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
Anyone who is not in the first res., will be those who must face the Great Wht. Thrown Judgement. Annyone not written in the book of life are thrown away.
Anyone who was/is born only once must die twice, but those who have been born twice will only need to die once. (They are already judged at calvary at the Bema seat of Christ).
6Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev. 19:1 AFTER THIS I heard what sounded like a mighty shout of a great crowd in heaven, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! Salvation and glory (splendor and majesty) and power (dominion and authority) [belong] to our God!
matthew 18:3And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Do only 144000, (believing Jews) have these qualities, the simple qualitys of a Christian? No of course not.
Remember know, Ish 1:18 was a prophicy of how the blood of Jesus would cleans us of the sins we commit, Hebrews 10:10. We stay sanctified via 1 John 1:9., (Acts 26:18). We will only be perfect when its all said and done. God understands this. He understands the 144000 ....('incuding us') were at not time near perfect. But by faith we are covered by the blood of his Son, Romans 5:1,9. These go to heaven.
I think 1thessalonians 3:13, ;4:13-18 is speaking about them comming back to greet us in the air. Then after the last 3 years of the tribulartion is over and after the dust has settled from Aramgedden. then their/ our spirits (in a twenkling of an eye) return to receoive their /our ressurrected bodies,
What else did Jesus say that helps us to see that every born again Christian, (the majority of the congregation) spirit goes to heaven
via
jn. 6:40 returns. 1 Jn.3:7
1 cor 1:30
jn.3:3-5
matthew 23:13
My friend Jim continued:Everyone knows that this "first resurrection" is speaking of "the Anointed," and the spurious passage that speaks of "the rest of the dead" is talking about all the rest of the [u]righteous and unrighteous (such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David) who receive an earthly resurrection.[/u] Kind of silly when you think about it.
However, if you believe the order of events in the Revelation (and programmed Witnesses can't), you find the following sequence of events has already happened in Chapter 19:
Revelation 19:1-4, the destruction of Babylon the Great
Revelation 19:6-9, the marriage of the Lamb
Revelation verse 11 through the end of Chapter 19, the battle of Armageddon.
So, "the marriage of the Lamb" has happened before the resurrections.
disciple?:read:
Jim continues> I could go on and on with scriptures from the writings of the Prophets to prove that those faithful who are resurrected on the earth receive "crowns," but the programmed would never see it that way. As the result, I try to keep my opinions to myself and try to stick to just what the Bible says. However, you insisted.
Your friend and brother,
Jim
disciple:Did the faithful men and women of old have a heavenl hope?
disciple: Did the faithful men and women of old admit that they were strangers to heaven or to earth? The WatchTower wrongly teaches that these men and women were strangers to heaven, that is, they only expected to have an earthly hope. Be resurrected to live here on earth. They were not entertaining a heavenly hope when they died. Let us read to see if the Bible corrects the Watchtwer’s teaching on this subject....
Hebrews 11:13 NIV “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.â€
We read here that they were not to be aliens and strangers to heaven. They were strangers on the earth. The faithful of old knew their hope was heaven! Tell your acquaintance that God is the God of the living, not the dead! The Bible also doesn’t support the WatchTower teaching on this subject. This Bible passage alone testifies that all imperfect, yet obedient believers go to heaven.
Were They Longing For An Earthly Hope Or A Heavenly Hope?
Hebrews 11:16 NIV “Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.â€((see Rev. 21:1-4,10,24).
The indisputable fact is that all men whose hearts are toward God have this city awaiting them (heaven). Hebrews 11:13-16 does not support the WatchTower’s teachings....Matthew 8:11 Proves the WT deceitfulness as 'who' will nine with Jesus.....
"I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."
I am looking forward to seeing a great crowd of Old faithful saints at that table.
The spirit behind the Watchtower teaches that there is no heavenly hope in an effort to drive a wedge of division and promote a clergy-type class among the brothers and sisters of the congregation. The Watchtower causes the average Jehovah’s Witness to believe that he is just like the men and women of old: unworthy to receive a heavenly hope. As we have seen, this is pure blasphemy, because each obedient believer does have a heavenly hope. Whenever the Jehovah’s Witness tries to tell you the great multitude is to live on earth, show them Revelation 19:1. And remind them that those mentioned in Revelation 19:1 are not ‘ angels.’ They are believers waiting to come back to paridise earth and receive their glorified bodies.
Their 1942 Emphatic Diaglott containing the Original Greek Text uses the term “great crowd.†Also look at Revelation 6:11, Revelation 7:9,11, Revelation 3:4-5 and Revelation 7:9,15 (as to ‘location’).
Where Does Jesus Say Each Obedient Believer Will Go?
Ask the Jehovah’s Witness, “Where did Jesus tell us the dead go when they rise from the dead?†('from Genesis to our day, He also said two would be on the house top and one would be taken. I think that is refering to rapture. Its sure great to be a 'Christian and be able to dicuss these subjects that have no bearing on our salvation but unlike the cults we can agree to 'disagree with a smile.) :friends:
Mark 12:25 NIV “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.â€
In Jesus own words, each obedient believer has this hope that is promised us in Revelation 19:1. He is very clear in stating this fact that all obedient believers will go to heaven, (we are comming bach though).
Matthew 22:30 NIV “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.â€
We see that Jesus did not put any limits on the number of people going to heaven. Did He mention anything about 144000?
Luke 20:36 NIV “And they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.â€
Ask the Jehovah’s Witness, “Isn’t an obedient believer God’s child?†J
Job also prayed that God would remember him in Job 14:13. Job also
had this same hope that those men and women of faith mentioned in Hebrews 11:13-16 had, a ‘heavenly hope.’ They went from waiting in paradise (Luke 23:24) to being taken to heaven at Jesus’ resurrection! (See Hebrews 11:40; Hebrews 9:28, Heb. 12:22,23 and Eph. 4:8 explains Hebrews 11:40. In other words, they had to wait on Jesus, so that it can be said that all are in Christ, the fulfillment of God’s promise, (John 11:25-26). Jesus led them in His train (Hebrews 2:10-13).
Galatians 3:14 “He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.†( Acts 1:8, Eph. 5:18, 1Jn.4:4,15."
There is no difference, no distinction between brothers and sisters within the congregation (Romans 3:22). All true believers are sons of God and have a heavenly hope, as Jesus himself clearly explained.
Ephesians 2:15 NIV “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.â€
I think we all know God purposed a kingdom of priests. He desired to have sons of God to fill the earth and to declare his name worldwide (Exodus 19:6). He began this with the people of Israel, but they failed in their calling. They lost sight as to who their neighbors were. Jehovah remedied this problem (Hosea 2:23, 1 Peter 2:10 and Rom. 9:29; 12:1-2).
He sets each one of us aside, as sanctified, to live godly life styles from the unholy world around us, (1Jn2:15, James 4:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).
This was long but I hope we all can gain a bit more about the end times and what our Father has instore for those who love Him.
disciple