Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Full Version: Judas and the 1st coming
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Back while Jesus walked with his disciples up until the time that the disciples were scattered / seperated from Jesus until the crucifixion it was generally believed that the Messiah would save the Jewish people from the Romans. From the days after the crucifixion and especially with the more coherent Christian faiths / groups arising with the idea that Judas was a betrayer or even Satans incarnate having little or no good intentions, was a popular belief and much hate has been directed to Judas as a result of this belief.

The scriptures don't relate much about Judas motivation, but it seems very sensible that Judas wanted to force a conflict. A conflict that would force Jesus to call on the myriad of angels to fullfill the then popular interpretation of the coming of the messiah 2000 years ish ago. After all it didn't seem anything else could happen if scriptures stayed true, considdering that Judas actions ended Jesus up in Roman custody and Jesus crucifixion. If Jesus was to fullfill Israels popular interpretation of the time that event could undoubtly have been a hallmark or trigger in which there would have had to be divine intervention in order for Gods Kingdom to come down from heaven on earth right there and then with Jesus as its king. Most of the Israelite people believed that the heavenly kingdom would be physicly manifest at that time. No doubt many of the disciples probably believed this atleast for a long time before Jesus crucifixion.

When Jesus was seen as dead by most of who knew him before his crucifixion, the vision of Gods Kingdom from heaven on earth was up in the air (so to speak). The faith of his believers was shaken and tested as reality was beginning to sink in to most of the people that knew him before his crufixion. As peter took up his old fishing profession, after having denied his dear Lord and Teacher and probably feeling guilty to some extent. Israel having its popular interpretation of the prophocies along with most of the other Israelites that believed along with the disciples, apparantly in shambles. Judas probably feeling the most guilt of all of the people, considdering the thing he had done. Judas was not greedy in that time as he tried to give his reward back nor was he cold about what he did because he wouldn't have killed himself if he was.

The possibility that Judas actions were hardly as dark as conventionally they were thought to be, seems very real. All the dark emotions that were directed to him were not justified nearly enough.

It seems to me it is much more reasonable to believe Judas intended to force a confrontation that would result in Israels freedom from Rome. The alternative motivation is not well supported by scripture. Judas denied any apparant earthly benefits and sought his demise because of his remorse. Most of Israel would have been glad to help the popular interpretation of the time along. This included the disciples and Judas until some time before, during or shortly after Jesus crucifixion.

Now i may be ringing an old bell, but i feel it needs a little repeating.
Hi Spiceant!
This is very interesting. I have read a book this summer that has the same sort of thinking!
Unfortunatly my summer has been so busy I can't remember which one it was. :thinking::huh: :blush: I really enjoyed them the few moments they rested in my mind though.I guess I'll be rereading them all this fall. If I get a minute I'll look for the passages and add a quote, don't hold your breath.;)
So many new ideas for me this past year to remember.
Blithe
OK, but... fantasizing about what might have been Judas' intent is kind of a moot point now, isn't it? Hate directed at Judas has no relevance to our faith today - he's dead and knows nothing of it!

There's no getting around the fact, as the Bible records, that Judas Iscariot did indeed betray Jesus to the authorities and led the search for him:

Luke 22:47, 48
While He was still speaking, behold, a crowd came, and the one called Judas, one of the twelve, was preceding them; and he approached Jesus to kiss Him. But Jesus said to him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"[NASB]

Quote:
The scriptures don't relate much about Judas motivation, but it seems very sensible that Judas wanted to force a conflict.

The scriptures relate enough about his motivation and the susceptiblility to compromise of his 'inner man':
John 6
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

John 12
3 Mary then took a pound of very costly perfume of pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair; and the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, said,
5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.
7 Therefore Jesus said, "Let her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of My burial.

John 13
2 During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,[...]
Jesus Predicts His Betrayal
21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."
22 The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking.
23 There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, "Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking."
25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus' bosom, said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
28 Now no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose He had said this to him.
29 For some were supposing, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus was saying to him, "Buy the things we have need of for the feast"; or else, that he should give something to the poor.
30 So after receiving the morsel he went out immediately; and it was night.

John 17:12
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'

There is no doubt, according to the Gospel accounts, that Judas did feel much remorse after the fact - but still, all of it happened 'just so' according to prophecy:
Matthew 27:3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!"
5 And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.
6 The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood."
7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter's Field as a burial place for strangers.
8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME." (interestingly it was Zechariah, not Jeremiah)

Zechariah 11:13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

So it seems to me that the theory of Judas' "real motivation of forcing the Kingdom to appear in his day" is rather useless. It didn't happen, did it? Regardless of whomever tries to force it - we're on God's timetable, not the other way 'round. It will happen when He's ready!

Quote:
The possibility that Judas actions were hardly as dark as conventionally they were thought to be, seems very real. All the dark emotions that were directed to him were not justified nearly enough.
It seems to me it is much more reasonable to believe Judas intended to force a confrontation that would result in Israels freedom from Rome. The alternative motivation is not well supported by scripture.

For what purpose do you state these things Spicey? Do you think he got a bad rap? Does Judas need our sympathy? Man, he's dead! He cares not what 'emotions' were directed at him - he himself felt so very bad about his betrayal of 'innocent blood' that he committed suicide! The Scriptures support that view very well imho. What is your scriptural, or even historical non-canonical support of the alternate view?

It matters not that "Most of Israel would have been glad to help the popular interpretation of the time along." It doesn't matter what was popular or unpopular - it was not to be - they were wrong - it didn't happen that way because it was not supposed to happen that way. It doesn't even matter what Judas' "true intentions" were, really. Reality is what was and what did happen, not what might've been. I don't see how speculating on things of this nature are relevant to our faith now. Maybe I don't quite understand what you're getting at - evidently I haven't read that book, lol. :read: Is it 'The Gospel of Judas'? If so, I have some other comments about that book that you may find interesting... Please explain more as you have time, OK?


:peace:

Hi,
The book I refered to in my earlier post is, "The Jesus I Never Knew", by Philip Yancey. In chapter 10, "Death the Final Week", Mr. Yancey devotes 2 pages to a discussion of the betrayal.
My thoughts on reading this book are that I was able to put myself back in time experienceing the struggle of these men & women who at the time didn't know the end of the story. There were many conjectures /teachings about the expectation of the Messiah's Coming amongst the Jews. We know how the story ends, they didn't.

I too for a long time believed in teachings based on speculations & struggled with what I believed & wanted to believe, and what I was actually reading in the scriptures.
It is pointed out in Judas' betrayal, he was not alone in abandoning Christ at this time, but in the degree of his loss of faith.Even so after having come into the garden, Jesus greets Judas calling him friend.All of the deciples would soon desert Jesus , but HE would still love them & cry out "Father forgive them...."
Mr. Yancey then contrasts Peter & Judas, both men , leaders within the group of deciples, both experiencing hope , fear, disillutionment, both denieing their master.He then states Judas was remoresful, but unrepented and took his own life. Peter humiliated but open to Jesus' message of grace & forgiveness, going on to lead.
So why did this view touch me , differently than the previously held belief centered on Judas being turned away by money/greed? Looking at this account & person as more complex than a man driven by greed and seeing past that sinful part of his nature and to the real problem he had. I can relate to my own dark days and struggle with excepting I had misunderstood and been living in expectation of a different outcome than scripture taught.This account then allows me to teach my family that it's not the sins they commit that are holding them back. But lack of excepting the grace of GOD & their repentence. Jesus is waiting to call them friend , & all that is seperating them is their repentance & acceptance.Nothing they have done since leaving the WT can keep them from that.
It always broke my heart & continues to, when I hear or see a JW start to let their life spiral down & apart because of guilt. The Jesus I've come to know , reaches out to help the second I get down. I used to just feel guilt & get into a bigger seperation from GOD.Repentance was so difficult. Believing I had to be clean first to be heard didn't work.The thinking & teachings were so twisted up. How did I survive?
Both with reading this chapter & Randy Walters blog on freeminds lately about witnessing , with a few other things things this summer, I am finding a new peace in how I teach my children. I can now wait/be praying for them and have another example with which to teach.Just as Judas couldn't force the kingdom to appear, niether can I my families repentance and exceptance of Christ's sacrifice.I can use all the amunition I can gather to help them unlearn and be open to the HOLY SPIRIT.So anyways , Judas has turned out for me , a character I can relate to personally & as a former witness. Sort of an anti-David.:)
I hope I have been able to communicate my thoughts. It has been very busy here & school starts Monday , I've run out of time.
Blithe

Blithe Freshman Wrote:
Mr. Yancey then contrasts Peter & Judas, both men , leaders within the group of deciples, both experiencing hope , fear, disillutionment, both denieing their master.He then states Judas was remoresful, but unrepented and took his own life. Peter humiliated but open to Jesus' message of grace & forgiveness, going on to lead.

Judas has turned out for me , a character I can relate to personally & as a former witness. Sort of an anti-David.:)
I hope I have been able to communicate my thoughts. It has been very busy here & school starts Monday , I've run out of time.
Blithe


Dear Blithe,

What an eye opener your post has been.
Thank you for mentioning this book

A lot of us can actually relate with Judas, its so easy to fall into sin and wrongdoing

But so very difficult to accept your fault

Judas tried to hurry Jesus along

So many times in a day I do that

Ah Lord what are you waiting for? Bring the end NOW!

Ah Lord why dont you end it all?

Why this, why that!

So it was not malice of intention? The betrayal of Jesus

Judas was with Jesus

He probably thought he knew better than Jesus

He probably thought a legion of angels would arrive and back up Jesus and save Him from His enemies and liberate the Jews from oppressive Roman rule?

And when he found Jesus apparently helpless without any divine help
Unwilling to speak in His own defense

He was simply disgusted

Conscience stricken!

He probably had a lot of honor

In the tradition of Judas Maccabeus

And this miserable failure and defeat in his purposes was such a humiliation that he did not feel deserving of life anymore

And in that state of mind he thought he had no other choice but to end it all

Sounds so familiar:shocked::blush:

The other course is that of the other betrayers the eleven apostles

They were humble

Jesus said that humility will save and meekness

Thank you ever so much

Farhat Zubair

Reference URL's