Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Why I think the chosen ones will represent the two winesses.
First and most important they would have to know the True God and His son.

In giving all the signs we were to watch for , Jesus said ,after the trubulation, he would gather up all his chosen ones from all over the earth, if it were only TWO there would be no need for the angels to be sent out to do this gathering.
Matt 24 :31.
This old system certainly is going thru a tribulation at the present. Every one is feeling the effects and the horses are just getting started , so can one just imagine what lays ahead for mankind.

I also believe the Great Tribulation once taken root will be centered around every one who knows the truth of Gods word or those who will accept the message of the two witnesses.

When the kingdom is set up in the heavens and Satan is cast out for good he attacks these chosen ones. Rev 12:17
Take notice it is those chosen ones that have the higher calling that are keeping Gods commandments that are attacked,

What would these commandments be ?
It would be preaching the Good news about Gods Kingdom being set up
. Matt 24 :14. all Christains will be in Babylon captivity under one umbrella religion in the slowly inrtoducing of the NWO, which will be established shortly. Those awake can see it happening, wont be long before anarchy will firmly establish the
coming NWO. during its rule the call will go out . Rev 18 :4
( call to seperate )

As the Great crowd grows they will be supporting the two witnesses , in their needs or also spreading the word of God secretly/ ( I say this because public witnessing will be forbidden under the NWO, that's why the promised protection to the two witnesses. Rev 11:5-13.

This is how the Great Crowd will be judged for survival ,this must be read with a spiritual eye or you will miss it. pray ,ponder, ask/ Matt 34:31-46.
This message and call to separate our self from the beast and all false religion will be the work of the remaining true sons of God. (the two witnesses )

Read all of chapter 12 in Revelation. This does not happen until the rest of the ones that belong to the 144,000 are sealed. Rev 7:3.

The book of Revelation is not written in
chronological order, and goes backwards and forwards It is cryptic, and will not be fully understood until it is time as it was written for the times of the end..

But the first three verses in chapter one Revelation does say happy is the one that reads aloud and understands.
This is what Jesus meant when he said, Knock , ask, search ,dig he was speaking about Gods word,
For us to even be getting into this book is proof it is open , being able to piece some of it together ,that makes sense with the other scriptures is exciting..
I personally feel the Temple inspection is taking place now, let me explain why.

Here I am slamming the WT Governing Body again but they do make the claim of being part of the Temple of God, ( members of the bride ) so these are the ones we want to be careful with.
Well any way in Jesus inspecting Gods Temple , Jesus finds there are some who make the claim of being a spiritual Jew that are not. A spiritual Jew is one that will rule with Christ. Read what he says to these imposters or weeds that sit along with the wheat . Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9.

Please read all the scriptures

The WT already used up the prophecy on the two witnesses ,when the WT Leaders were sent to prison, read the red Revelation book chapter 25 page 161 . This book was studied three times.( was thinking 3 for emphsis).
They would never admit error after that.

This book now leaves them complexly in the dark about the chosen ones being the two witnesses in the last days

Jesus said the Pharisees were 'blind guides is what they were, when the blind follow the blind they all fall into the pit.
This is the GB and those that will follow them. Sad to say but that's what the word of God says. 2Thess 2: 9-12

The NWO and the work of the remnant (true sons ) and their death are found in
Chapter 13 of Revelation/ We also can read of their protection while witnessing up until the end , in the 11 th Chapter of Revelation/

I am in no way interpreting scripture I am just sharing my thoughts on what I read in them,
Scriptures when gathered together, if true will support one another and speak for them selves .Jehovah himself gave us this principle in
John where it says out of the mouth of two or three witnesses something can be found true.
We have 40 different writers of the Bible and they must all be in agreement on any said subject.

All are invited and welcome to contribute and reason.

susanna :grouphug:

Thank you my dear sister Lee for directing me to this room. I am for ever getting lost here. I am still walking thru this site, There's so many rooms.to check out.

God bless you dear ones who worked so hard to keep together Jesus brothers and sheep so they may gather together .to up build and incite one another in love.
susanna:grouphug:

You are right !
The two witnesses are chosen ones !
And they are "the priests" of the Israel of God .
They are "two" (kinds/categories) because God has chosen the both of them :
- 1. prophets
- 2. priests

rus virgil

There are actually three witnesses.
Jesus is the faithful and true witness who descends from heaven at the last trumpet and collects those destined for heaven.
1 Thess. 4:15-18.
Zechariah parallels these two who have been given the task of rebuilding the temple. The High Priest Joshua and the Governor Zerubabel.

Thank you Rus and Vicky:

Now for some more thoughts
Keep in mind that it is Jesus Christ and the 144,000 that make up the Messianic Kingdom.

Jesus last evening with his apostles tells them about his Father making a Kingdom covenant with him and he Jesus was extending that Kingdom Covenant with them.

We read in Luke 22:29 ( ESV)
I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,

2 Tim 2:12 reads ,if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; Matt 28:18)And Jesus came and said to them, ( "All authority( in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
>>>This shows Jesus had conquered the world and was rewarded his crown.

Rev 1:6 reads To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

The disciples knew what their assignment was, they were to make up a Royal priesthood in Christ Messianic Kingdom/ 1Pet 2:9

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The last night with Jesus he asked them , were they able to drink of his cup ? What did Jesus mean ?

If one does research ,everyone one of Jesus apostles had a horrible death.

Death was the cup they would drink, this is the cup that Jesus knew he was to drink , that's why when praying about this cup he was going to drink, a angel came and ministered to him.

What about the early centuries where tragic deaths of true Christians,took place.

This is a link but Its the best I can do. sorry, cant get it to change colors.
>Of The Ten Bloody Persecutions Which The Christians Suffered ...

This Nero, according to the testimony of Emperor Trajan, governed the monarchy ... he practiced on the beloved friends of God, namely, the true Christians. ... Touching the manner in which the Christians were tortured

How about those that were burned alive holding the Bible in their hand.\Did they belong to any one other then Jesus ?

Jesus received power of the Holy Spirit at his baptism, the DOVE was to identify him to John the Baptist that the Messiah that he was preaching was really Jesus, but the rest even though they were baptized did not receive the Holy Spirit until Christ had his Father send it to them

When?

Right before a grand witness was to take place .recorded at Acts the 2nd Chapter.

They all together 120 of them received the Holy Spirit while gathered in a upper room. Thousands were Baptized with Holy Spirit during that celebration of Pentecost

A minor fulfillment of Joel, which ill be on a grander scale with the remnant gathering the Great Crowd..

>>>>>>>

Keep in mind all those chosen ones PUT to death are the ones laying under the alter, they are the ones waiting to rule with Christ. They are the ones crying out and just what are they told ?

Rev :6: 9-11 (A B)

9 When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne.

10 They cried in a loud voice, O [Sovereign] Lord, holy and true, how long now before You will sit in judgment and avenge our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?

11 Then they were each given a long and flowing and festive white robe and told to rest and wait patiently a little while longer, until the number should be complete of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

I think the above is self explanatory: There is no anointed at present,

A sister presented this thought over at Roberts and I have never forgotten it.

Doesn't the WT Governing Body make this claim ?

Just where is this remnant that is still alive . going to come from ?
Is it going to be from the WT? How about the Bible Students ?

2 Thessalonians 2;1-4 reads
1 BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the ]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

4Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

Take notice at Jesus spiritual Temple inspection, he finds right in the Temple those who claim they are a spiritual Jew but are not.

Rev 2:9 and Rev 3:9

>>>>>>>

Jesus received power of the Holy Spirit at his baptism, this was to identify him to John the Baptist as the Messiah , that he was preaching was Jesus, but the rest even though they were baptized did not receive the Holy Spirit until Christ had his Father send it to them

Isn't it true that holy spirit was not poured out until the day of Penntacost !


>>>>>

Have you heard of any anointed being slaughtered or put to death for Christ sake?

I think the above is self explanatory: There is no anointed at present, A sister presented this thought over at Roberts and I have never forgotten it.

. Doesn't the WT Governing Body make this claim ? Didn't every one of them live as Kings, having Christ sheep as their subjects. !! Are any of them laying below the alter because they were put to death ?

Just where is this Remnant that is still alive . going to come from ?
Is it going to be from the WT? How about the Bible Students ?
Can either one make the claim presented in
Revelation 14:5 5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.
,that scripture automatically eliminates many that believe in mans prophecy that Jesus already set up his Kingdom , we all know that the Messianic Kingdom is still future.

Those that will rule with Christ cannot believe or accept that Lie that Jesus came in 1914 ,that the kingdom was set up, when it was not.

2Thess 2:1-4

The Lord's Return
1When our Lord Jesus returns, we will be gathered up to meet him. So I ask you, my friends, 2not to be easily upset or disturbed by people who claim that the Lord [a] has already come. They may say that they heard this directly from the Holy Spirit, or from someone else, or even that they read it in one of our letters. 3But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked [b] one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear. 4He will brag and oppose everything that is holy or sacred. He will even sit in God's temple and claim to be God.


Read on in Matt 24:22-25 about the worlds GT
22 God has decided to make that terrible time short. Otherwise, no one would go on living. But God will make that time short to help the people he has chosen.23 At that time, someone might say to you, 'Look, there is the Christ!' Or another person might say, 'There he is!' But don't believe them.24 False Christs and false prophets will come and perform great wonders and miracles. They will try to fool even the people God has chosen, if that is possible. 25 Now I have warned you about this before it happens.

Lets reason with the scriptures. Many times translations will translate Christ as meaning anointed in the Greek.

>>>>>>>

it will be when the remnant is to start preaching in their 3.5 year mission that once more Holy Spirit will be poured out on these Ambassadors ( brothers ) of Christ.

No harm will come to them while they are engaged in gathering up the great Crowd. Gods Holy Spirit once again will be given attention to the ones who will have a part in the conclusion,preaching. it will be then that the two witnesses will have Jahs protection, all the ways up until their work is finished, Revelation 11 th chapter , Joel 2nd Chapter.

Then, they too will be slaughtered as those laying under the altar were slaughtered . They cannot receive their reward until the number of them are compete, it is then that the first resurrection takes place .

1 Thess 4:15-18

15 For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [a]in death].

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

>>>>>

(The living here are the remnant that were put to dearth at the end of the 3.5 years and laid in the open streets for three days. It will be then they are raised with physical bodies for all to see them just as Jesus was, to proove they were alive after being put to death. Later ?

they will be caught up all together ( the 144.000 ) to meet the Lord

They like Christ dematerialize after we no longer can see them, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of the heavens.

>>>>>

Then a great earth quake accured, wonder if it was when all those dead in Christ were awakened !!!

There may be repeats in this, i ask you to please excuse that fault as I already lost it once and had to rewrite it , really took hours so i dont want to mess with it again.
love susanna

Good evening dear sis:

Here's the link: OF THE TEN BLOODY PERSECUTIONS WHICH THE CHRISTIANS SUFFERED....

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs011.htm

Really enjoy reading your insights and appreciate your sharing them with us :read::hug:

Much Christian Love and Prayers to You and your family and ALL:grouphug::heartbeat:
sis
p.s. hope the link works :help::D

Thank you for the Link Lee:hug:

Thankyou Susanna! I love what you share!:happyheart:

I agree with what you wrote. Just the other day I was talking with someone about how it is quite likely that the ones who will make up the 2 witnesses group will have a resurrection similar to Jesus. As in all will be able to literally see them and then they will go to heaven as he did. I know this sounds crazy to some but it fits very well with the scriptures and the pattern left by Jesus.

I also agree that all those who "conquer" and who are chosen and sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Isreal will have to die a death similar to Christ. They are all slaughtered by the wicked one. The servant is not greater than the Master.

Willa posted a really great piece on the thread I started about the name Yeshua. It was about the connections in the book of Joshua with the book of Revelation. One point I noted was the similarity between the work that the 2 spies did and the work that the 2 witnesses do. Also note how Rahab came to the spies aid much the same way that the "earth" comes to the "womans" aid in revelation. This I think is part of Gods way of protecting them during their 3.5 yr work. This "earth" of Revelation could also be the same as the "sheep" of Matt. 25 who also come to the aid of Christs brothers ( the 2 witnesses).

Looking foreward to future posts.....Thanks:thumbup:

Jayme

I was listening to parts of Isaiah last night, and this passage in particular stood out to me.

After Isaiah had a vision of Jehovah, and had been commissioned to preach to Jerusalem, he asks, "How long?":

"Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered: "Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate,
The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places [are] many in the midst of the land.
But yet a tenth [will be] in it, And will return and be for consuming, As a terebinth tree or as an oak, Whose stump [remains] when it is cut down. So the holy seed [shall be] its stump." (Isaiah 6:11-13, NKJV)

So when God destroyed Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, he left a "tenth", the "holy seed", who would remain, just as the stump of a tree.

Something similar happens in Rev 11: "In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Clearly this "tenth of the city" is something similar to Isaiah's "tenth"... a holy seed. And the "seven thousand people" are similar to the 7,000 who had not bowed down to Baal in Elijah's day.

Paul spoke of this, in reference to his people, the Jews:

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli'jah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life. But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al." So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Romans 11:1-5)

So in Paul's day this "remnant" were the Jewish Christians, who had been "chosen by grace" out of the fleshly nation to which Paul belonged.

The two witnesses "stand before the Lord of the earth". They are easy to identify if we go back a few chapters. In chapter 6, the world asks... "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"

In chapter 7, it tells us precisely who can stand before the Lord - two groups:

"... a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel... "(Rev 7:4)

"... a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb..." (Rev 7:9)

These two congregations of people from Jews and Gentiles were the two witnesses, testifying to the world during the time of trampling, as Jesus had foretold:

"Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:23,24)

Susanna,

Here are my thoughts on the two witnesses.

Zechariah is the source scripture for the two witnesses and so should be carefully examined.

Zechariah 4:13
13 So he said to me: “Do you not really know what these [things] mean?”
In turn I said: “No, my lord.”
14 Accordingly he said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth

There are two anointed ones standing before the Lord in the final part of the days.

I think the important question to ask is:

Why only two?

Zechariah later identifies who the two witnesses might be which helps answer this question:

Zechariah 10
6 And I will make the house of Judah superior, and the house of Joseph I shall save. And I will give them a dwelling, for I will show them mercy; and they must become like those whom I had not cast off; for I am Jehovah their God, and I shall answer them.

Who are the two witnesses?

Judah and Joseph.

"they must become like those whom I had not cast off"

They are not cast off!

This implies that some ARE cast off.

If Judah and Joseph are not cast off then who is it that IS cast off?

The answer can be found in Genesis Chapter 49.

Genesis Ch49:1
1 Later on Jacob called his sons and said: “Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. 2 Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father.

If you read Genesis Chapter 49 then it shows that there should/could be 12 witnesses standing before the Lord in the final part of the days if it is only Judah and Joseph who are not cast off.

So who is cast off?

1 - Reuben
2 - Simeon
3 - Levi
4 - Zebulun
5 - Issachar
6 - Dan
7 - Gad
8 - Asher
9 - Naphtali
10 - Benjamin


This leads to some interesting contemplation.

During the time of the Jews in the 1st Century there were 12 Apostles.

Were 10 of the Apostles cast off?

No, only one was cast off, the son of destruction, Judas Iscariot.

Does that mean there should be 12 Apostles in the final part of the days?

Yes, I believe it does.

The Jews had 12 Apostles so to be fair the Gentiles should also have 12 Apostles.

This becomes a more righteous conviction when Jesus Christs words to the 1st Century Jewish Apostles are closely examined:

Matthew 19
28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many that are first will be last and the last first.


“But many that are first will be last and the last first."

Is Jesus Christ implying that the 1st Century Apostles are the first or the last?

If Jesus Christ is saying the 1st Century Apostles are the first then that means there should be 12 more Apostles at a later time..... the last.

(Do the scriptures mention anywhere that there will be a son or sons of destruction in the final part of the days?)

This helps make what Jacob said to his 12 sons in Genesis Chapter 49 more reconcilable with the scriptures.

With this in mind the two witnesses should in fact be individuals, Apostles in the final part of the days, Potential leaders, kings of the tribe of Judah and the tribe of Joseph.

The people who listen to them should be joined to their tribes.

So what happens to the people who listen to the other 10 Apostles in the final part of the days?

and

If the Book of Revelation mentions that 2 would be found standing before the Lord does it also mention 10 who are not?

Are there 10 leaders or kings mentioned in the Book of Revelation who lose or give away their inheritance?

I have made some videos about the Book of Revelation where I pursue this concept a little further. I invite you to watch them.

The first one is here:

http://thebiblereport.blogspot.com/2008/...art-1.html


In Christ

abe

Jayme
Thank you for posting its good knowing it made sense to more then myself. I certainly will read your thread and willas post.:)
I have very weak eyes so I must limit my reading ,so no way get to read all the threads.

I firmly believe , we that have heard Jesus voice ( mentally ) are the other sheep that help Christ's brothers during that 3.5 years coming ministry.
It is we that recognize these brothers of Christ that are looking forward to rule with Christ..

I feel everything that took place during Christ 3.5 years ministry , will be repeated for the conclusion of Satan's system , by the remaining ones making up the remnant These seven years of two 3.5 periods also fufill the two destructions, Jesus spoak about in Matt 24:
The two 3.5 years make a week of years , sotto like the week that started with Jesus will continue with Gods adopted sons and will be completed in the near future.
This gap in the middle of the both 3.5 years allowed for the weeds and the wheat to grow together unnoticed until the apostasy became in full bloom.
Or when the real coming of Christ was near. 2Thess 2:1-4

I am going to take this a step further as this just came to mind this week.
Hope you all can follow this.

First of all the out pouring of Holy spirit on the day of Pentecost , was the anointing that took place in that upper room. then to those who were baptized while in Jerusalem for the celebration of Pentecost ,were also anointed.
They were all filled those in that upper room. with the out pouring of Holy Spirit , It was also that day that all there were Baptized and also anointed. . A thorough witness was given that day as to how it was this Jesus that was put to death, how he was the promised messiah. Being filled with Holy spirit they took this witness home with them.and this is how a witess was spread . Acts 2

There has been no evidence of anointing ,since Constantine the great stepped in and diluting.Gods word with a mixture of Gods word and pagan doctrines
.Likened to taking a pure bottle of good wine , pouring half out and adding tainted water to fill the bottle.

OK lets go back again to the first century.
We had John the Baptist with his earthly hope who was a fore runner to Jesus,

I have been thinking that we the other sheep may do the same for the remnant or the remaining of the 144.000
"Making notice of their coming on the scene."

We aren't the Great Crowd, as that hasn't taken place yet,but we certainly have the hope of being a part of that Great Crowd, although at present the world is still in the dark about the Ransom sacrifice of Jesus.
That light will be the work of the two witnesses.

I hope I'm not too early with this, but Jesus did not start his 3.5 mission until he was anointed with Holy Spirit upon Baptism. that's when
Jehovah gave John a positive sign of recognizing Jesus.
The Dove that would be appropriate because a Dove is a symbol of peace, or the Prince of Peace. There was also Jehovah approval, saying this ( Jesus ) was his son.

I have wondered how we would recognize the remaining brothers . Well we were given Gods word to identify these brothers in Christ.
Rev 12:17 brings out they would be keeping Gods commandments.
17So then the dragon was furious (enraged) at the woman, and he went away to wage war on the remainder of her descendants--[on those] who obey God's commandments and who have the testimony of Jesus Christ [and adhere to it and [a]bear witness to Him].

When Satan is confined to the earth the brothers certainly will need Jahs Holy Spirit to get them thru the prophesied 3.5 year witnessing


Rev 11:5 (Amplified Bible)
5And if anyone attempts to injure them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their enemies; if anyone should attempt to harm them, thus he is doomed to be slain. [II Kings 1:10; Jer. 5:14.]

Rev 11:7-11

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

<<<<iThese brothers certainly would not be following the teachings of men.
In the ministry of Jesus his followers followed Jesus.
So the word of God says they would be unblemished when it came to be Jahs adopted sons.
No way could Jehovah adopt and anoint any one that was unclean, That's the reason in scripture they are aso referred to as holy ones .

Jahs adopted sons certainly would not tolerate a Lie , Paul their brother had already warned them about the coming/ present Lie in 2 Thess 2:1-4/
Christ has not come like the man of lawlessness would have Gods household believe.
It is this Lie that will be one sign to us as to who is and who is not going to rule with Christ/
Yes that is how serious a Lie is to Jehovah God. It was that first lie that messed up Jahs purpose to begin with,
A now unscriptural doctrine . to Eve that she would not die.

How does Jesus view a lie ? When speaking to the Pharisees which were the spiritual leaders of the Jews , during Christ life time, Jesus said to them, in John 8:44
44Your father is the devil, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he is also the father of all lies.

So this is how we will be sure who the brothers in Christ are . These are the ones that will be filled with Holy spirit when the time come. We ourseves will be no part of any lie,

We will boldly be loyal to Gods word and Love what Jehovah Loves and Hate what Jehovah hates.

Sorry I always get carried away, so back to what I wanted to say

This is how I feel so speaking only for myself.

Jesus ministry was his presenting himself as the promised Messiah or the promised seed.

The nation had a designated King in their mist for 3.5 years

Introduced by John the Baptist

Coming soon we will have the ambassadors of that Kingdom, introduced to all who know Christ by the envoys of these ambassadors.

en·voy 1 (nvoi, n-)
n.
1. A representative of a government who is sent on a special diplomatic mission.
2. A minister plenipotentiary assigned to a foreign embassy, ranking next below the ambassador.
3. A messenger; an agent.

What would make me think this !!!! !One reason is most Bible Students that claim the higher calling feel the two witnesses are what Pastor Russell said the were , that they were the Old /New testaments.
I am sure that was the case back then during Russels time,
That was then, this is now
It is now that we can see thru the scriptures that they are real people they are whats left of the 144,000/ They are going to be put to death so they can all take place in the first resurrection.

I know there were some that took to heart the booklet that was hidden for several centures that is opened to the public, that 1914 was a error.
So there is a division there among the Bible Students ,as some are in agreement with the scriptures that 1914 is a falsehood.
Then we have the JWs that are clinging to the GB, they will miss the boat if they keep loyal to man.

Reason : ithe WT have used the two Witnesses up back when they said that Christ came,

In their Red Revelation Climax Study book which was already studied three times , they identified the Two witnesses. on Page 164 Par 10,as being the body of seven leaders included Rutherford that were put in prison in 1918/ Their silence in jail pictured their deaths, They were released shortly.

They are now long gone , died from natural causes, they certainly weren't put to death for Christ.
This means the remaining ones to make up the two witnesses wont be coming from the JWs org, unless they repent now and flee.

I think that's all for now, just remember This is how I see events, which
doesn't mean anything , its just a" could be ".
susanna:grouphug:

Jayme I just went over your post again
Quote:from willa & Jayme
One point I noted was the similarity between the work that the 2 spies did and the work that the 2 witnesses do. Also note how Rahab came to the spies aid much the same way that the "earth" comes to the "womans" aid in revelation. This I think is part of Gods way of protecting them during their 3.5 yr work. This "earth" of Revelation could also be the same as the "sheep" of Matt. 25 who also come to the aid of Christs brothers ( the 2 witnesses). End of quote

I think that is really a gem !

Abe.
I keep my posts short.
Perhaps too short for some.
The name changes in the book of Revelation 7 has been explained many times. Do you read other peoples posts?

Keep your posts short and well thought out, then they might be read rather than scrolled.
And no you are not in any special section.

Dear Interp
OK here we go again

Please just forget about the Jewish nation. Once you clear your mind ,from trying to save a system that was destroyed by Jehovah God Himself , you will move ahead

.The Jewish system that once was Gods people and nation is gone.
One can not squeeze Revelaton into the first century no matter how hard you try/
Jehovah is now interested in HEAVENLY Jerusalem . This is who his adopted sons will be. Sitting and ruling with Christ Jesus.
Yes there was a remnant saved it was the root of Jessie from Judea where a maiden was prophesied to give birth to this promised seed. You are going back over 700 years before Christ.
That is done , that is over.
So all the promises made to the Jews were already fulfilled in Christ,
The seed that was promised to Abraham Gal 3:16 reads
16Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).

But then we see that Jesus included his faithful followers to be with him Gal 3:28-29 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if you belong to Christ [are in Him Who is Abraham's Seed], then you are Abraham's offspring and [spiritual] heirs according to promise.

Jehovah did save a remnant, and these promises were fulfilled in Christ thru Abraham. Jesus was the holy seed.

Let go of the Isreal that exits today, the 12,000 taken out of each tribe to make up the 144.000 are spiritual Isreal. These are the ones that accepted the holy seed Jesus Christ , or the remnant that was promised to come out where all the nations would bless themselves,

Sorry dear interp this is as far as I can go with you.
THIS MAY HELP ALONG WITH PRAYER THEN i AM GOING TO CLOSE WITH YOUR POST
PLEASE DONT BE LISTENING TO SCRIPTURES OR READINGS FROM ANY ONE THAT HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE RANSOM SACRIFICE WAS..
love susanna

Paul is speaking to the ones who will make up the 144.000
Gal 4:21-30 ( AB)
21Tell me, you who are bent on being under the Law, will you listen to what the Law [really] says?

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondmaid and one by the free woman.(A)

23But whereas the child of the slave woman was born according to the flesh and had an ordinary birth, the son of the free woman was born in fulfillment of the promise.

24Now all this is an allegory; these [two women] represent two covenants. One covenant originated from Mount Sinai [where the Law was given] and bears [children destined] for slavery; this is Hagar.

25Now Hagar is (stands for) Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to and belongs in the same category with the present Jerusalem, for she is in bondage together with her children.

26But the Jerusalem above ([a]the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.

27For it is written in the Scriptures, Rejoice, O barren woman, who has not given birth to children; break forth into a joyful shout, you who are not feeling birth pangs, for the desolate woman has many more children than she who has a husband.(B)

28But we, brethren, are children [[b]not by physical descent, as was Ishmael, but] like Isaac, born [c]in virtue of promise.

29Yet [just] as at that time the child [of ordinary birth] born according to the flesh despised and persecuted him [who was born remarkably] according to [the promise and the working of] the [Holy] Spirit, so it is now also.©

30But what does the Scripture say? Cast out and send away the slave woman and her son, for never shall the son of the slave woman be heir and share the inheritance with the son of the free woman.(D)

Thank you Manhu
Iseems I have been here all day
Must lay down will catch up tomorrow.
Love ya !

Hi Susanna

I think the congregations of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea would beg to differ.

Jesus told John: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev 22:10)

What you are saying is the complete opposite to what Jesus said. If what you say is true, Jesus should have said to John:

"John, seal up the words... because the time is not for your time."

... just like the angel said to Daniel: "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. (Dan 12:9)

But Jesus didn't say anything like that to John. That's because the things started to take place right away, in the 1st century.

But just to clarify... I don't think you can squeeze ALL of Revelation into the 1st century either... I'm saying it started to be fulfilled in the 1st century, otherwise Jesus' statement in Revelation 22:10 is not true.

Dear Interp

The congregations of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea are real of course , made up of the brothers /sisters who accepted Christ , I don't feel that all of the books in Revelation got to all those existing congregation back then , but never the less they were written for the the 144.000 which would take these letters or books all the way to our time (present ) where there would just be a remnant of the true church.

In Matt 28:19-20 Jesus told his church that he would be with them until the conclusion of this system of things, So that's where we find ourselves today

It would be during this time that Jesus would inspect Gods Temple or the Living stones making up this temple.

Those congregations back there were named because it was the districts where these brothers lived . We are not talking buildings. we are talking humans. Like for instance your KH probably is called the name of your town then cong. Although to day I don't feel they can be recognized as the cong of God.

Non the less Gods word is available to all.

On a grander scale , today the members of Christ are scattered thru out the whole world.
Jesus told John: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev 22:10)

Yes again, what you are not grasping is he's talking to the full number of 144,000, some of which were not even in existence yet , as Jehovah will seal them with Holy Spirit in His due time. The complete number of that church will be here when the end of this system arrives it will be the remnant of the first century cong. Their being put to death will be the cause for the Day of Jehovah's anger against the nations. Rev 11 th chapter.

I am really sorry but until you can see and understand there's a expansion of over 2000 years dealing with the Cong of God or His Household, I cannot offer more.

1 Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Now that was written to the Bride of Christ so the application takes us all the way down to our time to the Temples inspection mentioned in Revelation

Interp, I admire your zeal but it is not according to accurate knowledge, just as Paul had said of himself when persecuting the Christians.

We went in circles on this before, so please let it rest with me because we will get no where.

I see you are trying very hard to understand, pray and lean on Jahs word. Jah gives generiously to those that ask, search, dig :read:

love susanna.:grouphug: